Is Jordan B Peterson's new website idea an atrocious one or reasonable one? | Page 18

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by emax, Nov 11, 2017 at 2:45 PM.

  1. senri The belt that resides inside you

    senri
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    Very good Mr Brothir, what a delicious specimen you are.

    Now for you to put in the sequence of operations and monitor it's outcomes requires the input of your own moral agency. You yourself would put in your moral framework so that it would do calculation to benefit all of man. What it seems to me on what Jordan is saying is that you still are applying your own pirori morality for the scientific tool of mathematics to solve as many aggregations as possible for the benefit of humanity. Before you evaluate you have to see that your experiment justifies humanity as an end and not a means. You as a human being cannot physically go through all those outcomes all at once so you would need an AI tech of sorts to do the job. However if that AI tech approaches the likes of a singularity then what outcome could that have? Would your own morality be sufficient enough to prevent an unseen catastrophe from the AI itself wherein it's own creation tethers to mans existence etc?

    It is fun to think about.
     
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  2. kpt018 Gold Belt

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    I didn't read every post but I didn't see that in here. But why do you feel the need to defend Jordan P's intelligence compared to posters? Like, what are you looking to discuss?
     
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  3. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    Nothing, it was just a passing comment because I find it amusing that random Sherbros are acting like Peterson is a rube, that's all. No need to make this a thing.
     
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  4. Devout Pessimist Tragic Vision

    Devout Pessimist
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    That is exactly what Peterson is saying. Weinstein, near the end of the video, added science to the list of moral systems, but this is not possible because science can only analyzes and evaluate morality and even then it is limited. Science does not create morality. Morality acts on science. How a scientist analyzes systems of morality or implements scientific innovation is largely influenced by the moral perception they have already been steeped in. The biggest issue is that Weinstein and many rationalists falsely believe science is completely objective and free from outside influences. They always overlook the devastating fact that humanity is deeply flawed and no amount of rationality or technology will change that.

    Peterson is pointing to a greater mystery and this seems to greatly irritate the rationalists. As the Puritan Thomas Hooker said, "The point is difficult and the mystery great."
     
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  5. kpt018 Gold Belt

    kpt018
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    Well it's a forum where discussions happen and the condescension (on behalf of another) is annoying.
     
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  6. TheGreatA Black Belt

    TheGreatA
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    As I said, there is no real worth in continuing this discussion further, because you've made up your mind about everyone who offers an opinion contrary to your own as "CTer", even though I have posted nothing that steps into the realm of "conspiracy".

    The gradual shift of traditional Marxism from class-based struggle, to neo-Marxist identity/culture-based struggle, is no conspiracy of right-wingers, but a well-established fact. Even modern day Marxists would acknowledge that this change has happened, as class has gradually become less relevant in the modern society. The idea of establishing a "cultural hegemony" plays an integral part in modern Marxist thought, and has for a fairly long period of time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left#Historical_origins
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left#United_States
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony#Gramsci.E2.80.99s_influence
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions

    etc.

    What I criticized was your statement about Lind being the "originator" of the "Cultural Marxist stuff". While he may or may not have been the first to use the term in that context, it doesn't seem to me that he actually innovated anything outside of borrowing talking points from men like Bezmenov, Kalugin, and other KGB agents, who had already come out by that time, to describe the attempted "subversion" of American culture.

    Lind may well have "hammed it up" to make it seem like all of his political enemies were part of the conspiracy, but this does not mean that there wasn't actually a legitimate attempt to influence American culture and academia.

    The archives have detailed lists of agents that were designated with the purpose to influence academia, and target anti-socialist activists (which surely included men like Bezmenov).

    "Mitrokhin also provides a list of undercover KGB agents who travelled abroad as interns, relatives of citizens of the Western countries or professors of colleges in order to build close relations with dissidents."

    http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/113614

    It is impossible to say how broad the conspiracy was. But it is clear that the conspiracy was legitimate, and that there were collaborating professors in the academia.

    We are seeing that because Russia has shifted from being Marxist-based, to being national-identity based. They are still pushing an agenda and many, on the left particularly, fully believe that the Russians were responsible for electing a nationalist-minded president in America. Yet these same people are unwilling to acknowledge that an even greater machine in the Soviet Union, with a far larger network of spies and sphere of influence around the world, was able to influence America before, to push Marxist views.

    Somehow one is a "conspiracy" while the other is "common knowledge".

    I do not think it's a stretch to say that the critical theorists have had wide-spread influence on the modern progressive ideas.



    Whether it's a Jewish "plot" or not, I don't think that's something that Peterson necessarily buys into. He just recognizes the Marxist roots of the modern progressive movement, and correctly points to the Frankfurt school of thought as having originated the platform that many progressive ideals have been built upon (not really something that would necessarily be disputed even by the progressives themselves).
     
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  7. dontsnitch Gold Belt

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    Not sure what you mean on behalf of others, but sure, condescension is not a good quality, though context matters.
     
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  8. kpt018 Gold Belt

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    Whatever, thanks for your contribution of pointing out JP is smarter than Sherdoggers. An award is coming your way.
     
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  9. dontsnitch Gold Belt

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    What I find odd is that you take more issue with me for pointing it out, than you do with the people that think they're smarter than JP. But like you said, whatever.
     
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  10. kpt018 Gold Belt

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    Who is though? Why don't you address them instead of some weird defense of your hero?
     
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  11. dontsnitch Gold Belt

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    You know how you said that condescension is a bad look? Why are you becoming more and more snarky with every post? Can't you just disagree and remain civil with me, like I've been with you?

    You think my observation was unwarranted, okay I heard you. Peace out.
     
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  12. kpt018 Gold Belt

    kpt018
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    I've been uncivil? Ok bud, little senstive.
     
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  13. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    Yeah, you're becoming snarky because I'm not seeing eye-to-eye with you. Personally, I don't enjoy such conversations, particularly when they devolve into arguing for the sake of arguing. It is possible to disagree and remain pleasant, think about it.
     
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  14. kpt018 Gold Belt

    kpt018
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    Dude, you dropped in to essentially say "you people think you're smarter than Peterson, but you're not" and I'm the snarky one? And I'm the one who doesn't want pleasant conversations?

    Give me a break.
     
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  15. dontsnitch Gold Belt

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    Yes, you're being snarky with me. Even if my original post, which was directed into the ether, was out of line, I wasn't being rude to anyone in particular. Yet you continue being rude to me personally even after I've pointed it out and while I've kept it civil.

    I don't care about the actual argument, just don't be a dick to anyone who disagrees with you.
     
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  16. kpt018 Gold Belt

    kpt018
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    No one in particular, just a dick as a blanket statement. Cool bro. But don't make posts like that if you can't handle people coming back at you.
     
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  17. Ruprecht Hands Of The Judges

    Ruprecht
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    Of course you can say that Marxism and critical theory have had an inluence on modern ideology, in the same way that postmodernists recognise the influence of Heidegger, despite him being a card carrying Nazi and a reactionary conservative (to the extent of supporting neo-pastoralism).
    That doesn't alter the fact that the primary output of the Frankfurt School was criticism of the "Culture Industry", which makes the idea of the Frankfurt School being responsible for modern western culture a transparent nonsense, in light of the neoliberal dominance of the last three decades and the clear commercial/capitalist nature of that development. That was the central thrust of the criticism of their "Cultural Marxism" and that's exactly what we've seen rising to unchecked dominance since the fall of Communism.
    Conflating that with Soviet Subversion is pure hand waving. That's why trying to link Yuri's misplaced claims about Soviet subversion of the "West" to the claims of "Cultural Marxism" from the Frankfurt School is furthering a conspiracy in the pejorative sense. The Frankfurt School were open critics of Soviet Marxism and the Mitrokhin Archive repeatedly demonstrates the Soviet resistance to such criticism and attempts at revision.
    Likewise the hyperbole of Peterson trying to draw a line from gender studies to the killing fields of Pol Pot.
    Postmodernism is of course a philosophical trend present in academia, but describing that as "cultural Marxism" (with or without the antisemitic baggage it's frequently lumped with) is a clear appeal to the conspiracy theories advocated by Lind and Minnicino. What other reason is there for trying to characterise it as the "Cultural Marxism" of the Frankfurt School? You have to look at when Peterson chooses to use the term "Cultural Marxism" versus "Postmodernism" or "Neo-Marxism".
    Paul Gottfried coined the term Paleoconservative, is credited by Spencer with co-creating the "Alt-Right" and was a student of Marcuse. So you could just as accurately say Paleoconservatism and the Alt-right were a result of the influence of the Frankfurt School.
    Which is to say, it's not accurate at all.
     
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  18. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    I stand by the statement. People were implying JP was not intelligent. Sure, I said it facetiously, but there is something more going on here, it doesn't make sense for you to be so upset about this.

    You can "come back at me", i.e. be a dick to me all you want, that's your prerogative.
     
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  19. TheGreatA Black Belt

    TheGreatA
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    I don't think Jordan Peterson is saying that the Frankfurt school of thought is single-handedly responsible for modern western culture. I think he's saying that the Frankfurt school influenced radical ideas in academia which are gaining tract today, and might be responsible for shaping the culture of the future, if the ideas go unchecked.

    I would say that it is an over-simplification of his arguments to say that he believes the neo-Marxists to be responsible for everything under the sun.

    It seems that I did not illustrate my point clearly enough. I'm saying that Lind's whole platform about "cultural subversion" and how it functions, and the terminology used in his attempts to describe the phenomenon, seems to derive from the descriptions of men like Besmenov, Kalugin and other KGB agents. His thoughts in that regard are hardly original. The conspiracy that Marxists were subverting the United States culturally and through the media, had existed for a long time.

    That he links the origins of "subversion" to the Frankfurt school, rather than the Soviets, may have been an idea that originated from him. Although I suspect that this idea was thrown about in many conservative circles for lot longer, considering that prominent critical theorists made no attempt to hide what they believed in that regard:

    Herbert Marcuse corresponded with Dutschke in 1971 to agree with this strategy, "Let me tell you this: that I regard your notion of the 'long march through the institutions' as the only effective way..."[4] In his 1972 book, Counterrevolution and Revolt, Marcuse wrote

    To extend the base of the student movement, Rudi Dutschke has proposed the strategy of the long march through the institutions: working against the established institutions while working within them, but not simply by 'boring from within', rather by 'doing the job', learning (how to program and read computers, how to teach at all levels of education, how to use the mass media, how to organize production, how to recognize and eschew planned obsolescence, how to design, et cetera), and at the same time preserving one's own consciousness in working with others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterrevolution_and_Revolt


    I don't think he's necessarily drawing a line from gender studies to Pol Pot. He sees gender studies as having little academic worth, while he draws a line from the people who parade around Soviet-era Communist symbols, hammer and sickles, to the killing fields of Pol Pot and Stalin. No differently than a man would draw a line from a person waving the Nazi flag, to the gas chambers of Holocaust.

    You're free to inform him about the excess baggage associated with those terms. I don't think he is intentionally trying to rile up anti-Semitic sentiment.

    It's just that cultural Marxism happens to be a fairly accurate description of self-described Marxists that subscribe to the critical theory and believe in the establishment of a cultural hegemony, as the way to further the cause of socialism.

    Spencer's politics are basically a "pale" imitation of the identity politics on the left. It's not a stretch to say that his version of the alt-right shares similarities with the radically progressive movement of the left.
     
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  20. Devout Pessimist Tragic Vision

    Devout Pessimist
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    @Jack V Savage

    I thought it was worth mentioning that The Imaginative Conservative posted Richard Weaver's Essay on the website yesterday (Nov. 13th, 2017):

    Up From Liberalism

     
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