Is Karate really this useless?

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1) THE Boxer is wearing gloves. Einsteins. Guess what a MASSIVE advantage that is to someone NOT using them. Not just for defence but also offence.

2). The karate guy is not doing karate. There is nothing about his fighting that even closely resembles Karate. Much more like fake, American MCdojo Karate.


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no.
if you point fight against someone boxing you of course it is, though.
 


Benny the Jet Uriquidez going 20 something minutes with a Thai repeatedly throwing him from the clinch. Fight was interrupted because a fight broke out because Thai's thought Benny was cheating with Judo and Americans thought the Thai was cheating with clinching. The story goes they both thought the rules are different. Chuck Norris got punched by a Thai to start it off as legend goes.



A Kyokushinkai challenge match where they show off where Karate really shines striking into the clinch into takedown! Obviously this man has cross trained Judo with Morote Gari (double leg) but if submissions or GnP were allowed he would have won we can safely say because MMA has shown us what happens. Muay Thai focusing exclusively on stand up and Karate on multiple things means it will be more high level in one area. Think how much better kickboxers are compared to MMA fighters striking.
These challenge matches lead to Kyokushin adding Muay Thai and boxing to their Goju Ryu,Shotokan,Judo,Daito Ryu Aikijutsu mixed style even though they won 2 out of 3.

A american kenpo style (Karate and old school Jiu Jitsu in Benny the Jet) and Kyokushin Karate being as I said a mixed style both showed their effectiveness. Can you kindly stop showing your ignorance?

Also as a general disclaimer yes I used to practice Kyokushin I call myself a Karateka. I am also training in a Muay Thai gym rounding out my clinch and checks because we take what works and apply it. The way I am comparing Karate against Muay Thai isn't to disparage Muay Thai instead it is because it is seen as "the most effective stand up art" by the vast majority of people.

Thnx 4 the intelligent post yo!
 
It is pretty easy to do if the person opposite has no idea what you're doing - it's of course harder to do with someone who has a jist of what you might do. Like if you tried to transition into a clinch and you had no idea what seoi nage was and someone who's drilled that technique as a counter from a clinch - locked in your arm as you go for the clinch - much like Imada did to Buakaw in the 1st min of the 1st round before he got beat to a pulp - if you have no idea what the counter is or no little about the technique/counter - you're going for a tumble:



Just to give you an example - Imada did that with fucking boxing gloves - I have mad respect for the dude because we use small gloves & I can't always pull seoi nage off (I'm new to it of course though but learning).

Well in Kudo because of the gi's - you end up in clinch range throughout especially because the round format for competition in tournaments is 3 mins - so everyone is basically coming at you as you have 3 minutes to score as much as you can & preferably take out your opponent without having to go to an extension. The MT clinch we use in Kudo is a lot cruder admittedly but since it's common we practice counters to clinches of all kinds.

Of course the MT clinch we train from an attack viewpoint won't be as good as a Nak Muay's or a professional thai fighter's - but when you're training a singular sport and have a rule-set where you can't get hip thrown or throw in certain ways from the clinch - you aren't going to look out for those things or know how to deal with them when someone does them. They have a time and a place.

I know what an MT clinch should do - breaking posture in the clinch doesn't prevent someone from going for a fireman's carry or even initiating any hip throw or even reaping you if you try pick up a knee. What I'm saying is when you open up all aspects of standup grappling - the clinch is only one aspect and there are many to contend with - that you don't have to necessarily think about in MT - that is my point.


My point in that post which you partly quoted is that the MT clinch is not this unbeatable thing - I wasn't saying it's useless, on the contrary it's very useful but it is not this god like thing to be feared or this instant advantage bestower - sure it's a great thing to have but it's no advantage over someone who knows throws outside the scope of MT - it has it's pros & cons. I'm not saying the clinch is inferior to judo throws or that judo throws are better - I'm saying that the MT clinch even as complicated/complex as it is can be countered with a number of judo throws - "easily" if your opponent has no idea what you're doing (if you do straight MT you will fall into this bracket unless you know your throws) - slightly harder if your opponent has a jist of what you're doing or harder yet if you do MT & Judo. I mean the seoi nage counter from a clinch initiation isn't rare - it's pretty common but works effectively and if you excel at techniques like these from attempts to initiate clinches - good fucking luck getting past someone like that because they are a nightmare to deal with.

I'm not saying just Judo either but even someone with greco-roman or sambo experience could do the same.


Yes I think it is very effective against the clinch if the other guy has no idea what you're doing - if you're opposite a guy that trains MT & knows judo/sambo etc - then of course it's by no means easy as it levels the playing field - in fact that would be much tougher to deal with from a standup grappling perspective.

I'd almost add to that when a standing grappler gets caught in a clinch it's very much like the feeling of lets say as example, getting butterfly guard in BJJ setting up for a sweep. The years training instinctually put you in the mindset to counter. You feel your opponents balance,center mass and where it's weak. I worked with a Muay Thai practitioner briefly and tried to associate his knowledge of basic clinches to then show him how to find grip for Kuzushi into throws. Going from behind the neck to overhand grip behind the shoulder to still control the head on one side and behind the neck down the arm/sleeve to break his balance, engage the hip/leg and throw. From my knowledge of Randuri I'm trying to find grip that allows me to bring my center under my opponents where he's weak for a throw as I control the head and balance from the arm/sleeve. With clinches you're kinda in the same range but with gloves on.

Idk, just thoughts coming from what you wrote, but I can see similiar places of attack for throws from that close quarters engagement given the time drilled and applied in Randuri/sparring.
 
Not to be "that guy" but...

it says "taekwondo" on the back of their gis...

soooooo...
 
It depends heavily on the style of Karate and most importantly the instructor and actual individual. Unfortunately there are a lot of McDojos out there especially in USA.
Non full contact Karate styles tend to struggle in full contact fights. However when you start looking at full contact Karate styles especially from the Knockdown family (Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shidokan, Daido Juku / Kudo), you get some seriously tough fighters.

It's a bit like if you were watching a video of body combat / boxercise and saying that boxing is useless...







I know that legit karate exists but I have only seen shit karate in my life.
 
I know that legit karate exists but I have only seen shit karate in my life.

Not experiencing something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It reminds me of those girls who say "all men are assholes I hate them all" because they've never been with a nice guy.
Apologies for the weird analogy :)
 
Not experiencing something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It reminds me of those girls who say "all men are assholes I hate them all" because they've never been with a nice guy.
Apologies for the weird analogy :)


KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
I know that legit karate exists but I have only seen shit karate in my life.


mmmmktxsbye
 
KBE6EKCTAH_CCP said:
I know that legit karate exists but I have only seen shit karate in my life.


mmmmktxsbye

I've read what you said but unlike you not everybody knows legit karate exists, as you can see by the creation of this thread. It's those people my post was aimed at. There's no need to go on the defensive like that :)
I was actually just editing my post to add that going to a dojo from one of the styles I mentioned in my first post already massively increases the chances of seeing and training legit karate.
 
I've read what you said but unlike you not everybody knows legit karate exists, as you can see by the creation of this thread. It's those people my post was aimed at. There's no need to go on the defensive like that :)
I was actually just editing my post to add that going to a dojo from one of the styles I mentioned in my first post already massively increases the chances of seeing and training legit karate.

Ha ha no worries, I was just being an ass :)

The problem with the styles you have mentionned is that besides kyokushin, they are virtually non-existent in many parts of the world.

I live in a major city in Germany (so not quite the end of the world) and I think that their are 2 kyokushin schools.

The rest is tippity tap shotokan and the usual bunch of crap-ryu.

Now I also happen to know that legit shotokan exists, but it is also very difficult to find.

I train MT and Judo but if I could, I would switch to seidokankai or daido-juku, BTW. That's how open I am to karate.
 
Ha ha no worries, I was just being an ass :)

The problem with the styles you have mentionned is that besides kyokushin, they are virtually non-existent in many parts of the world.

I live in a major city in Germany (so not quite the end of the world) and I think that their are 2 kyokushin schools.

The rest is tippity tap shotokan and the usual bunch of crap-ryu.

Now I also happen to know that legit shotokan exists, but it is also very difficult to find.

I train MT and Judo but if I could, I would switch to seidokankai or daido-juku, BTW. That's how open I am to karate.

I guess it depends what country you live in indeed.
Kyokushin and its descendant styles are massively present in countries like Japan, Russia, Brazil, Eastern Europe, UK, France, Netherlands, and the Nordics. And then of course a lot of other countries. I know that there are definitely a few Kyokushin organisation in Germany and even Shidokan!
But you're right that in a lot of European countries the ratio between non full contact karate dojos and full contact ones is really bad, probably like 10/1.

Which city do you live in? I might be able to give you some dojo recommendations.
 
I guess it depends what country you live in indeed.
Kyokushin and its descendant styles are massively present in countries like Japan, Russia, Brazil, Eastern Europe, UK, France, Netherlands, and the Nordics. And then of course a lot of other countries. I know that there are definitely a few Kyokushin organisation in Germany and even Shidokan!
But you're right that in a lot of European countries the ratio between non full contact karate dojos and full contact ones is really bad, probably like 10/1.

Which city do you live in? I might be able to give you some dojo recommendations.

I am in Munich. Thanks alot but it's been tried.

I am not interested in kyokushin (legit but I just dislike the ruleset) nor in Shotokan (I dislike almost everything about it, except some rare JKA competition footage that looks legit).
 
At 10:15 Imada goes for a body lock, its stuffed and easily transitioned to a MT clinch. At 10:36, he goes for a hip throw from the MT clinch after throwing an uppercut, but again it's stopped. At this point of the fight, I don't agree that Imada was so badly hurt that he wasn't able to use his technique, rather than Buakaw was able to read and use his MT to defend those attempts.

Shooto is a tournament format - he was already nearly gone coming into the fight - he had already gone the distance with Souwer so was pretty much gone when it came to Buakaw. Though you do have a point but I'd point out that Buakaw has been clinching with boxing gloves since he was a kid - Imada hasn't. He has the advantage here - at 10.36 he doesn't go for a hip throw he goes for an arm throw - seoi nage again - he's not in the right position for it though & nor does he have the right grip for it (one of his grips slips off) and Buakaw recovers and counters with a cross. Both times Buakaw was open for that seoi nage - the 2nd time Imada wasn't in the right position to throw it - my guess is because he was already done at this point.



I am not trying to say MT clinch is the answer to all grappling. I don't think it's more effective than judo, or greco/freestyle or other pure grappling arts, but, I really think that the MT clinch is underrated from the grappling community, and can cause a lot of trouble to those people...

I'm in agreement it is underrated as a technique - by that I mean it's not been developed to the extent it can be for sure outside of MT but I think it won't be nearly as prominent as you see in MT.


I will quote again the first think i quoted from you, that i had problem with:
Specially the : "It's incredibly easy to counter" rustled my jimmies. And that was what i was trying to say... I don't think it's that "incredibly easy"... It's still real to me dammit.

I could have used a better phrase - not my intention to rustle jimmies. Just wanted to point out there are many ways to counter it and that it is not this god like technique - it has its place just like everything else. Of course it's effective - don't think anyone would argue it isn't. I saying it more as a response to a silly post that I encountered in the MT & Kickboxing forum which I thought was pretty stupid.
 
I am in Munich. Thanks alot but it's been tried.

I am not interested in kyokushin (legit but I just dislike the ruleset) nor in Shotokan (I dislike almost everything about it, except some rare JKA competition footage that looks legit).

You're like me!

Although I prefer JKA shotokan to Kyokushin - in the sense that it teaches you fundamentals (distance control & timing) in a way most other karate styles can't really match.
 
I am in Munich. Thanks alot but it's been tried.

I am not interested in kyokushin (legit but I just dislike the ruleset) nor in Shotokan (I dislike almost everything about it, except some rare JKA competition footage that looks legit).

I was talking about Shidokan not Shotokan though: http://www.shidokan.org.uk/style.html
Considering you're already doing Muay Thai and Judo, it sounds to me like Shidokan would be perfect style of Karate for you. I know they're present in Germany, not sure about München though.
 
You're like me!

Although I prefer JKA shotokan to Kyokushin - in the sense that it teaches you fundamentals (distance control & timing) in a way most other karate styles can't really match.

I've trained in both for several years. First JKA Shotokan in my teenage years, then Kyokushin in my early twenties.

Even though JKA Shotokan was a great base for me especially in terms of learning footwork and evasive movement, getting into the opponent's range to deliver a quick strike and quickly getting back out of range, etc. It still doesn't teach you how to put combos together, doesn't condition you to take hits full force, and doesn't really mentally condition you to be ready for a fight/brawl.

With all the downsides that people attribute to Kyokushin such as not much focus on head strikes, and that style of standing and banging in close range instead of using footwork, etc. I still feel that Kyokushin prepared me a lot better physically and mentally than JKA Shotokan for self defence situations and to transition to other full contact sports.
For a start, full contact conditioning and sparring is a massive + in order not to be afraid taking hits and being mentally ready to get into a brawl.

Typically the issue I have with Shotokan is that it's very very effective to evade and also deliver a powerful strike first before the opponent, but if those one or two strikes miss or don't do enough damage to finish the fight, you'll then be in trouble taking hits or continuing to deliver more strikes i.e brawling.

Also JKA Shotokan was way too much Kihon and Kata and not enough sparring for my liking.
 
I've trained in both for several years. First JKA Shotokan in my teenage years, then Kyokushin in my early twenties.

Even though JKA Shotokan was a great base for me especially in terms of learning footwork and evasive movement, getting into the opponent's range to deliver a quick strike and quickly getting back out of range, etc. It still doesn't teach you how to put combos together, doesn't condition you to take hits full force, and doesn't really mentally condition you to be ready for a fight/brawl.

With all the downsides that people attribute to Kyokushin such as not much focus on head strikes, and that style of standing and banging in close range instead of using footwork, etc. I still feel that Kyokushin prepared me a lot better physically and mentally than JKA Shotokan for self defence situations and to transition to other full contact sports.
For a start, full contact conditioning and sparring is a massive + in order not to be afraid taking hits and being mentally ready to get into a brawl.

Typically the issue I have with Shotokan is that it's very very effective to evade and also deliver a powerful strike first before the opponent, but if those one or two strikes miss or don't do enough damage to finish the fight, you'll then be in trouble taking hits or continuing to deliver more strikes i.e brawling.

Also JKA Shotokan was way too much Kihon and Kata and not enough sparring for my liking.

There's a good reason traditionally karate never really bothered with combinations (outside simple one's) though - when you have no padding good luck throwing combinations because you're likely to break your hands.

Of course Kyokushin will prepare you better physically/mentally but I feel like JKA shotokan will prepare you better technically & with fundamentals. I think the head strikes issue is not such a big deal - it's a sport & they're trying to preserve their brains but the issues with fundamentals is where I had the issue more so. I think JKA teaches fundamentals a lot better - distancing, timing, angles etc than Kyokushin at least as far as MMA & self defense goes.

Most styles will prepare you physically/mentally for self defense - so Kyokushin isn't alone in that respect but it goes above & beyond in that area. Not many styles though can teach fundamentals the way JKA can - I mean consistently JKA fighters have a great understanding of distance, timing & angles. It's why we've also seen so many more point fighters be successful in MMA compared to those from full contact styles because those point styles really teach fundamentals better. The only real full contact style fighter that has been successful is GSP (who I would call more of a wrestler or kickboxer than a Kyokushin practitioner) but for some reason he's claimed as Kyokushin because he did it as a kid even though it's not his greatest asset (i.e. his boxing & wrestling). If you look at guys like Nakahara & Teixeira who went into MMA - they've struggled even in the striking department & it's because they don't have imho the fundamentals of guys like Thompson, Hiruguchi, Machida etc.

Also there is more kihon & kata in Kyokushin than in JKA or in fact in most karate styles. Okinawan Goju has 16 and uechi-ryu has 8, shorin ryu is the only style that has more kata than Kyokushin. Same goes for the kihon. Sparring depends more on the dojo but you're more likely in a general sense to spar in a KK dojo. I'd add as well that the kata, kihon & even bunkai in JKA shotokan makes much more sense than Kyokushin's kata, kihon & bunkai - they also do a better job of actually using more of the tools as well in sparring.
 
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