Is there a way to make wrestling exciting without taking tools away from the wrestler?

[Bowel-forged Stool]

Manditory 30 second stand and bangs... and yellow card purse deductions for boring wrasslin'

 

[eternaldarkness]

Ascribing falsehoods as a means to somehow win an argument is desperate.

The simple question is: what makes the wrestling style the most boring? The answer: lay-and-pray.
What enables lay-and-pray? The answer: elbows.
Why do elbows enable lay-and-pray? The answer: low risk striking that prevents a stand-up.
How do you eliminate lay-and-pray? The answer: eliminate elbows.

No matter how much you may drool over Antonio Silva getting drilled into oblivion with elbows from Velasquez and Mir, or see Gonzaga get demolished by CroCop, those instances make up a very small percentage of elbows being used on the ground. Elbows on the ground are majorly used to prevent stand-ups.

You must lack common sense, because you say the most moronic things.

definitely a bjj bitch. low risk striking? you mean it works too well for smashing ju jitsu guys and they can't armbar you. you want to be thankful they don't allow headbutts, because they work even better against bjj fighters. elbows on the ground are mainly used to cause cuts and generally make life really unpleasant for cuddle bunnies (pyjama wrestlers).

 

[SeattleFightFan]

What enables lay-and-pray? The answer: elbows.
Why do elbows enable lay-and-pray? The answer: low risk striking that prevents a stand-up.
How do you eliminate lay-and-pray? The answer: eliminate elbows.

i like your step by step explanation.

i would add, it would be mandatory to keep standups at least as fast - if not quicker - if no action is happening. including pitter patter fists.

but yes, without elbows, fighters are forced to increase distance between (s)he and the opponent, which leads to more exciting ground wars. but it also begs the next question - should we really remove a major weapon just to make a ground game more fun?

some say yes, some say no. because this debate has been waged in these forums for as long as i can remember - it was a major point during the Pride v UFC debates.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Ascribing falsehoods as a means to somehow win an argument is desperate.

The simple question is: what makes the wrestling style the most boring? The answer: lay-and-pray.
What enables lay-and-pray? The answer: elbows.
Why do elbows enable lay-and-pray? The answer: low risk striking that prevents a stand-up.
How do you eliminate lay-and-pray? The answer: eliminate elbows.

No matter how much you may drool over Antonio Silva getting drilled into oblivion with elbows from Velasquez and Mir, or see Gonzaga get demolished by CroCop, those instances make up a very small percentage of elbows being used on the ground. Elbows on the ground are majorly used to prevent stand-ups.

You must lack common sense, because you say the most moronic things.

it's actually heaps easier to stall in fights without elbows as it is a lot easier to control the hands to stop punches. but you would know this if you watched pride or actually fought. the elbow is my go to face fucker, elbows have been known to kill people in thai fights. learn more about fighting before you post stupid comments about elbows just being a stalling tactic.

 

[MikeMcMann]

A takedown is a takedown. It should be scored based on its own merit. Not scoring takedowns is simply asinine

As long as you score a stuffed TD similarly as they are both just attempts at Octagon Control and determining where the fight takes place.

Once you have established where the fight takes place then you must actually fight and do something and that is what should score the points. Not the transitions.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I never said to give them more points for doing nothing on top. I'm just saying that all things being equal, the guy on top is in a dominant position.

Which is false.

He may or MAY NOT be in a dominant position based on his skill set and the person below him skill set.

We can all name fighters and fights where the guy on bottom was in charge and the guy on top was in trouble the entire time they were there.

So instead of you saying 'all things being equal' what you need to say is 'when i specifically craft a scenario where the guy on top is better on top than the guy on bottom I want to automatically give the guy on top the points'.

That is a dumb thing to say or do. What is the fear in actually watching an d judging the fight based on what ACTUALLY transpires as opposed to guessing based on your belief that most times that is the case???

 

[eternaldarkness]

Which is false.

He may or MAY NOT be in a dominant position based on his skill set and the person below him skill set.

We can all name fighters and fights where the guy on bottom was in charge and the guy on top was in trouble the entire time they were there.

So instead of you saying 'all things being equal' what you need to say is 'when i specifically craft a scenario where the guy on top is better on top than the guy on bottom I want to automatically give the guy on top the points'.

That is a dumb thing to say or do. What is the fear in actually watching an d judging the fight based on what ACTUALLY transpires as opposed to guessing based on your belief that most times that is the case???

the guy on top is in a dominant position because of gravity. it's really that simple.

 

[eternaldarkness]

As long as you score a stuffed TD similarly as they are both just attempts at Octagon Control and determining where the fight takes place.

Once you have established where the fight takes place then you must actually fight and do something and that is what should score the points. Not the transitions.

good takedowns do damage, therefore score heavily in a fight. on a hard surface slams and throws are some of the most damaging moves in fighting.

 

[MikeMcMann]

the guy on top is in a dominant position because of gravity. it's really that simple.

Except it's not because that is false.

Tell Werdum or Maia you are in a dominant position if they pull guard and they will laugh in your face.

Spoiler

So before you say wrongly not everyone is Werdum or Maia just realize you are acknowledging that we need to know first who is on top and who is on bottom for your statement to work. And if we have to know them your statement is false.

 

[Fraz]

Oil checking

 

[eternaldarkness]

Except it's not because that is false.

Tell Werdum or Maia you are in a dominant position if they pull guard and they will laugh in your face.

Spoiler

So before you say wrongly not everyone is Werdum or Maia just realize you are acknowledging that we need to know first who is on top and who is on bottom for your statement to work. And if we have to know them your statement is false.

never heard of gravity? or just don't believe in it?

 

[MikeMcMann]

good takedowns do damage, therefore score heavily in a fight. on a hard surface slams and throws are some of the most damaging moves in fighting.

I have no issue allowing judges to score points to a TD that does some damage. Just as I have no issue with them not giving points to the majority of TDs that do not.

 

[MikeMcMann]

never heard of gravity? or just don't believe in it?

I dare you to go to a bjj school and tell the best guys that you will put them in a disadvantageous position because 'gravity'.

Please send me the video as they laugh you out the door as you continue to ask them if they've never heard of gravity and why they think they could have any advantage when you have gravity. Lol

 

[eternaldarkness]

I have no issue allowing judges to score points to a TD that does some damage. Just as I have no issue with them not giving points to the majority of TDs that do not.

i agree with you in that there is to much emphasis given to top postion, without any actual damage being done. that take down at the end of the round thing shits me, and is an absolute joke and waste of energy. if your going to take someone down do it when you have enough time to go for a sub or tko.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I dare you to go to a bjj school and tell the best guys that you will put them in a disadvantageous position because 'gravity'.

Please send me the video as they laugh you out the door as you continue to ask them if they've never heard of gravity and why they think they could have any advantage when you have gravity. Lol

i have been to many bjj classes over the years, and i always laugh my arse off when someone pulls guard. pass guard forearm to throat and chicken wing ding time. that or knee ride to mount. last time i went to a bjj class i watched my brother armbar the instructor

 

[bambammccoy]

Score stuffed TDs more, score a secured TD less, the winning fighter on the ground should be the busier fighter unless the top position fighter is transitioning like butter.

 

[sdss]

They've already made enough rules to handicap grappling.

Not every fight is going to be exciting. It doesn't matter what changes you make.

 

[Kassitus]

You have two options:

1. Appreciate wrestling enough to enjoy it.

2. Watch kickboxing.

 

[savemgs]

Pride FC rules. fixes everything

 

[Shaddows]

Ive been thinking, a lot of people point to yellow cards in pride, but in a way that takes away the wrestlers ability to "grind" which is something that happens in a real fight.

Now im not saying mma is a real fight, but I'm just saying that taking away someones ability to wrestle (just because you yourself can't) is too much of a rule manipulation.

Imagine if nobody knew how to jab and one guy learned. Now this jab isnt going to finish the fight, but it keeps him in control. He suffocates the other fighters offense with a jab and the fight drags on with no finish in sight. Now imagine if he got a yellow card for stalling. He wouldnt right? Because the long use of the jab eventually sets up a right hand, finishing the fight.

Just like how a long wrestling sequence can lead to a gnp or submission finish. This is my main problem with yellowcarding.

Another issue is using knees on the ground. I think,this would make it easier for wrestlers to finish fights, but the ufc will never allow it.

Ive heard taking away elbows would allow guys to get subs because of throwing punches and exposing arms.


In the end it seems we just have to deal with it.

Any thoughts or suggestions on a good way to increase action on the ground?

IMHO people should STFU and allow the fight to take place ANYWHERE it leads.
If a guy is stuck against the fence, it is up to him to get the hell out of that position. If he can't, then he loses points and his opponent gains controlling points.

Same on the ground.


I fucking hate when fighters beg the referees to get them out of an uncomfortable position. This is a fucking fight. Learn to get out of those positions or be stuck in it!!!