Jon Jones is being given too much "due process"

[Alpha_T83]

This situation with Jones is ridiculous. It's so patently obvious what is going on. USADA have already come down with their decision, and offered him a suspension. If he chooses, he can go to arbitration -- and that's what we are waiting for. The last time Jones had arbitration it was publicised (link below), so we know he hasn't gone to arbitration yet!!

(https://www.mmafighting.com/2016/11...tration-complete-decision-expected-before-nac)

Thus, the strategy becomes clear: Jon Jones' team are just delaying this in perpetuity, trying to come up with any tangential excuse they can for his positive test -- and they are hoping that USADA cave and offer him a lesser suspension, under pressure from his lawyers.

This is blatantly unfair, as the vast majority of other fighters do not have access to this much "due process". This isn't the legal system -- Jon Jones has no constitutional rights to exploit the system. USADA should close this absurd loophole and put a mandatory period of 6 months for arbitration cases, after which USADA automatically unilaterally imposes their decision.

 

[Sapp]

@dimspace

 

[Alpha_T83]

@dimspace

LOL, summoning the Jon Jones defense team?

 

[IsoManatee]

Agree but sadly on this earth the more power and wealth you have the more due process you will receive always.

 

[flowoftruth]

that csac hearing was a circus

 

[Sapp]

LOL, summoning the Jon Jones defense team?

No boss. Just a poster informed on USADA's process who likely could contribute to this thread.

 

[DS66]

Why does it make you so angry? If you were in Jon's shoes, or anyone else who was flagged by USADA, wouldn't you also be doing what you can in order to fight this? Sure it's a bit of a joke how long USADA takes to resolve cases, but this isn't exclusive to Jones at all.

Just let the process play out.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Agree but sadly on this earth the more power and wealth you have the more due process you will receive always.

I really hope that USADA are actually legit, and don't cave to his absurd pressure. I hope they stick with the 4-year suspension -- which I am SURE is what they are demanding right now. If Jones' team actually had solid evidence, they would file for arbitration. However, they only get one shot at arbitration, so they don't want to file for that process until they're sure.

However, if Jon keeps refusing to accept 4 years, and keeps declining to file for arbitration, he could just sit out for 4 years with no official decision. If that happens he could just go broke from all his legal bills.

 

[Pacemaker Joe]

LOL, summoning the Jon Jones defense team?

I doubt dim is coming in here to defend Jones. No one who watched his CSAC hearing would. But taking away what few due process right the fighters have isn't a good plan. Jones isn't gaining a lot by dragging this out, but look at Barnett in comparison. Basically a year arguing with USADA, who wanted to give him more than that, to hear from McLaren that he should have gotten a minimal sanction. The last time Jones dragged it out he paid a shit ton of money for no reduction in sanction, and the smallest of nods - saying that it didn't appear that he'd intentionally cheated, that he was just ridiculously reckless.

 

[Alpha_T83]

Why does it make you so angry?

Because 99% of fighters in Jones' position wouldn't be able to play the game like this. USADA should have policies to prevent these situations, because at this point Jon Jones should be ready for arbitration. If his team isn't ready for arbitration right now, then they shouldn't be allowed to delay a decision any more.

 

[CerebralKnievel]

More resources need to be diverted into the investigation of Brock's teeth. That is a disturbing issue if I've ever seen one.

 

[Alpha_T83]

I doubt dim is coming in here to defend Jones. No one who watched his CSAC hearing would. But taking away what few due process right the fighters have isn't a good plan. Jones isn't gaining a lot by dragging this out, but look at Barnett in comparison. Basically a year arguing with USADA, who wanted to give him more than that, to hear from McLaren that he should have gotten a minimal sanction. The last time Jones dragged it out he paid a shit ton of money for no reduction in sanction, and the smallest of nods - saying that it didn't appear that he'd intentionally cheated, that he was just ridiculously reckless.

Obviously there would be exceptions, such as if USADA have to test supplements or conduct their own investigations, that would add time to the 6 month arbitration limit I'm talking about.

So if you get back to USADA and they take 8 months to do their own investigation, then the fighter should be given 8 additional months on top of the 6months I'm talking about.

 

[dim_]

USADA should close this absurd loophole and put a mandatory period of 6 months for arbitration cases, after which USADA automatically unilaterally imposes their decision.

that would be manifestly unfair on the athletes.

at every stage there is an obligation by usada to give x number of days to respond, so if they request certain paperwork, 21 days to respond. if they request something from a doctor, 30 days to respond. if they get whatever it is from the doctor, they have 30 days to look over it. They may need more information, so they request it, another 21 days to respond.

Those measures have to be there to protect the athletes rights or people would accuse USADa of running roughshot over the athletes and not giving them enough time to respond to things.

This is before we even get into issues like the fact that USADA at certain times of the year will be 10x busier than others. If there are more cases their legal team is more tied up (there are countless other ongoing investigations like for instance the Oregon investigation - all use up resources)

But much of this simply cant be done quickly. Its not like commissions where they send it to quest diagnostics, and if it says positive they are judge, jury and executioner and just do what the fuck they like. USADA are bound by process and ultimately its an independant tribunal that deal with any hearings so USADA have to make sure their case is watertight as well as giving the athlete adequate opportunity to defend themselves)




Its all utterly irrelevant because while all this is going on Jones is suspended. So he cant compete, so it really makes no difference how much his team try and delay the process. (if that is what they are trying to do)

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

Can't take away due process

Or GOAT status

 

[DS66]

Because 99% of fighters in Jones' position wouldn't be able to play the game like this.

I don't think that's true. I've seen USADA cases handled poorly and dragged out time and time again. I really don't think this is exclusive to Jones at all.

Even if you think the UFC is interfering to try and shorten the sentence, we shouldn't be surprised at all. The UFC's only goal is to make money. Fighters like Jones/Brock/Conor who can sell PPV's will always get special treatment.

 

[Alpha_T83]

at every stage there is an obligation by usada to give x number of days to respond, so if they request certain paperwork, 21 days to respond. if they request something from a doctor, 30 days to respond. if they get whatever it is from the doctor, they have 30 days to look over it. They may need more information, so they request it, another 21 days to respond.

I agree that there would need to be exceptions to add to a time to respond -- USADA sometimes do their own investigations as in the JDS case, so they would need to give fighters additional time to file for arbitration based on these delays. I'm obviously over-simplifying it, as the actual legal implementation would be pages long.

However, there needs to be a point when USADA has requested everything they need to request, they've conducted every single investigation of their own, and they've offered suspension to the athlete -- at that point they are waiting for the athlete to accept or file for arbitration. Once this point has been reached, there should be a clear time limit imposed for the athlete to make that decision.

 

[Paynebringer]

This situation with Jones is ridiculous. It's so patently obvious what is going on. USADA have already come down with their decision, and offered him a suspension. If he chooses, he can go to arbitration -- and that's what we are waiting for. The last time Jones had arbitration it was publicised (link below), so we know he hasn't gone to arbitration yet!!

(https://www.mmafighting.com/2016/11...tration-complete-decision-expected-before-nac)

Thus, the strategy becomes clear: Jon Jones' team are just delaying this in perpetuity, trying to come up with any tangential excuse they can for his positive test -- and they are hoping that USADA cave and offer him a lesser suspension, under pressure from his lawyers.

This is blatantly unfair, as the vast majority of other fighters do not have access to this much "due process". This isn't the legal system -- Jon Jones has no constitutional rights to exploit the system. USADA should close this absurd loophole and put a mandatory period of 6 months for arbitration cases, after which USADA automatically unilaterally imposes their decision.

More head space owned by Jones....

 

[Kryptt]

 

[dim_]

Heres an example timeline that is not beyond the realms of possibility for a hypothetical case.

Jan 1st - athlete provides sample to USADA
Jan 15th - sample tests positive, confirmatory analysis requested
Jan 20th - Confirmatory analysis also positive, USADA send full test package
Jan 25th - USADA have reviewed test package, decided to proceed, athlete informed and date set for provisional telephone hearing
Jan 30th - provisional hearing set, athlete provisionally suspended
Feb 1st - Athlete sent all test paperwork, given 21 days to respond
Feb 22nd - athlete responds, claims was due to a medication,
March 17th - USADA request details of athletes doctor , athlete given 21 days to respond
April 1st - Athlete provides medical contact info
April 17th - Usada contact athlets doctor for medical info, given 30 days to respond
May 12th - Doctor sends stuff to USADA
May 27th - USADA request further info from doctor, 21 days to respond
June 17th - Doctor provides more info to USADA
June 20th - USADA propose to athlete making a tue application, 21 days to respond
July 7th - Athlete fills out TUE application and sends to USADA
August 14th - First available meeting of the TUE panel. Tue denied
August 17th - USADA inform athlete of tue panel decision, make offer of penalty, athlete given 21 days to respond.
Sept 2nd - Athlete declines offer of suspension....

Already at 9 months.. for a pretty straightforward case..

Sept 17th - USADA give a accept suspension or opt for abritration ultimatum. athlete given 21 days to respond.
Oct 3rd - Athlete opts for arbitration
Oct 17th - Arbitrators contact athlete, athlete claims financially unable to afford costs and applies for waiver
Oct 29th - Arbitrators send out paperwork for financial means testing, athlete given 21 days to respond.
Nov 14th - Athlete fills out and returns paperwork
Nov 29th - Arbitrator accepts financial waiver, first available hearing date is January 17th
Dec 14th - USADA attorney unable to attent on 17th, requests alternate date
Dec 22nd - Arbitrator sets new date of February 23rd
Feb 23rd - Hearing takes place, arbitrator goes off to make decision
March 22nd - Arbitrator informs athlete and USADA of their decision. reasoned decision package published.

Thats 14 months start to finish..

and fuck me. you know what. I completely forgot 21 days for the athlete to request b-sample analysis.. add another three weeks to that story

 

[dim_]

they've conducted every single investigation of their own, and they've offered suspension to the athlete -- at that point they are waiting for the athlete to accept or file for arbitration. Once this point has been reached, there should be a clear time limit imposed for the athlete to make that decision.

there WILL be clear time limits. it will have been indicated to the athlete that "hey, this is our final offer, take it or request arbitration, you have 30 days to respond".