Judo Gene LeBell On Karl Gotch

[Blackjack]

Judo Gene LeBell was on Joe Rogan's show a while ago and he was talking about former pro wrestler and catch wrestler Karl Gotch. LeBell said that Gotch would love it when Jiu-Jitsu guys would get on their backs and stick their legs in the air for the guard because Gotch would just grab one of their legs and break it. LeBell said he never saw Gotch fail to break the leg of a Jiu-Jitsu guy who was using the guard position.

This shows the superiority of Catch Wrestling which unfortunately is almost a lost art. Look how few guys in MMA are catch wrestlers primarily. Guys like Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz before him would have absolutely dominated The UFC if they had been around and in their primes when The UFC began.

 

[bjpenngoat]

Josh is probably the best catch wrestler in the sport and hes never been submitted. Hes fought guys like Monson, Pawel nastula, Mir and big nog and he beat Dean Lister in submission grappling. CAtch is legit.

 

[Roca]

Great. My life is forever changed now, thanks.

 

[lenbiasgoat]

Would love to see this demonstrated

 

[Dream Evil]

And Bruce Lee could punch a heavybag through a brick wall. A guy who knew a guy whose roommate used to train with him said so.

 

[Blackjack]

Great. My life is forever changed now, thanks.

That must happen to you quite often on the Sherdog forums. Thank Gene LeBell, not me.
I was just passing along some information I got from him.

 

[Private Whatley]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the jiu jitsu guys that Carl Gotch rolled with weren't like the jiu jitsu guys that are around today.

 

[Blackjack]

Josh is probably the best catch wrestler in the sport and hes never been submitted. Hes fought guys like Monson, Pawel nastula, Mir and big nog and he beat Dean Lister in submission grappling. CAtch is legit.

Absolutely. Josh Barnett when he's at his best can beat anyone. He looked to be in great condition in his most recent fight where he beat Roy Nelson.

 

[Karelinator]

Absolutely. Josh Barnett when he's at his best can beat anyone. He looked to be in great condition in his most recent fight where he beat Roy Nelson.

Using almost no offensive ground grappling whatsoever... I was pretty weirded out with this fight.

And Bruce Lee could punch a heavybag through a brick wall. A guy who knew a guy whose roommate used to train with him said so.

lenbiasgoat Would love to see this demonstrated

Those are good points.

 

[Blackjack]

Using almost no offensive ground grappling whatsoever... I was pretty weirded out with this fight.

It was an unusual strategy for Barnett. he was doing so well with his stand-up fighting that Nelson actually tried to take Barnett to the ground which would have been a disaster for Nelson if the fight had primarily taken place on the ground. It would not have went to a decision. Lots of people have had trouble just doing a stand-up fight against Nelson though so I think Barnett was trying to prove a point about the efficacy he now has in his striking game since wrestling Nelson would have been a far easier way for Barnett to win.

 

[Phronimos]

Tony Cecchine and Matt Furey have tried to revive it. Catch Wrestling if developed would destroy BJJ if developed the way BJJ has over the past 20 years.

Catch is brutal, BJJ is gentlemanly by comparison. Cranks and breaks and the like... barbaric!

 

[Blackjack]

Tony Cecchine and Matt Furey have tried to revive it. Catch Wrestling if developed would destroy BJJ if developed the way BJJ has over the past 20 years.

Catch is brutal, BJJ is gentlemanly by comparison. Cranks and breaks and the like... barbaric!

I have a friend who went to a Tony Cecchine seminar and was extremely impressed. He explained to me how they take a very different approach to submission holds or "hooks" as they are called in the Catch world. When executing a hook, you violently apply the hold as quickly with as much power as possible. It results in an immediate, serious injury to one's opponent. This is in contrast to the jiu-jitsu way of applying a hold and then gradually applying pressure until the man submits. There are hooks that have no equivalent in Jiu-Jitsu and vice versa since wrestlers don't fight on their backs - they'd get pinned. Still, all or most jiu-jitsu submissions are just renamed Catch submissions or hooks. The kimura for example is taken from catch wrestling. The original and correct name for it is the double wristlock.

That's what I believe as well. Josh Barnett says "Jiu-Jitsu is the gentle art; Catch is the violent art."

 

[Scitney]

It was an unusual strategy for Barnett. he was doing so well with his stand-up fighting that Nelson actually tried to take Barnett to the ground which would have been a disaster for Nelson if the fight had primarily taken place on the ground. It would not have went to a decision. Lots of people have had trouble just doing a stand-up fight against Nelson though so I think Barnett was trying to prove a point about the efficacy he now has in his striking game since wrestling Nelson would have been a far easier way for Barnett to win.

I don't know if it would have been far easier. Nelson has pretty decent takedown defense, an Barnett really does not have great takedowns.

 

[loyalyolayal]

This thread is like a bat signal for danthewolfman.

 

[Ez Eric]

This reminds me of UFC 1 where Pat Smith pulls guard and Shamrock over hooks the leg and falls back for a heel hook I believe.

Leg locks are awesome. There is just a little bit of risk in giving up position if the sub doesn't succeed. But it is usually worth the risk

Kazushi Sakuraba is the greatest catch wrestler we have ever seen in MMA.

 

[miscend]

Why did Shamrock fail to break Gracie's leg if Catch is so good at breaking legs from inside the guard?

 

[mkt]

Judo Gene LeBell was on Joe Rogan's show a while ago and he was talking about former pro wrestler and catch wrestler Karl Gotch. LeBell said that Gotch would love it when Jiu-Jitsu guys would get on their backs and stick their legs in the air for the guard because Gotch would just grab one of their legs and break it. LeBell said he never saw Gotch fail to break the leg of a Jiu-Jitsu guy who was using the guard position.

I like Lebell (though he seems like an old curmedeon) and really respect catch, but I don't believe this at all:

• Whose legs did he break? It's not like there were submission grappling tournaments in the 1950s and 60s. Did he do this to jiu jitsu guys he trained with in the gym? If so, Gotch sounds like an awful person and I don't think that's true.
• I really doubt the few Americans trained in JJ guys even attempting the guard much. It was clearly popularized in the U.S. by the Gracies (the first guard appearance in any media was the 1987 Lethal Weapon movie)
• If this were possible, I'm pretty sure we'd have seen these easy leg break techniques at some point in 25 years of NHB/MMA.

 

[Blackjack]

I like Lebell (though he seems like an old curmedeon) and really respect catch, but I don't believe this at all:

• Whose legs did he break? It's not like there were submission grappling tournaments in the 1950s and 60s. Did he do this to jiu jitsu guys he trained with in the gym? If so, Gotch sounds like an awful person and I don't think that's true.
• I really doubt the few Americans trained in JJ guys even attempting the guard much. It was clearly popularized in the U.S. by the Gracies (the first guard appearance in any media was the 1987 Lethal Weapon movie)
• If this were possible, I'm pretty sure we'd have seen these easy leg break techniques at some point in 25 years of NHB/MMA.

Who said these were "easy leg break techniques"? Is your reasoning that if Gotch could do it then it must have been easy?

As for your other questions, Joe Rogan didn't ask those or any similar questions so I have to believe that either Rogan believed him, or Rogan was afraid to question LeBell's veracity which is entirely possible.

 

[Rvd Slmr]

I'm ready to get flamed because I know how respected he is, but I see LeBell first and foremost as an entertainer and his claims have to be taken with a big grain of salt.

 

[ManWolf]

Josh is probably the best catch wrestler in the sport and hes never been submitteed.

As a huge fan of Barnett and a lover of catch, I unfortunately have to correct you here. Josh has, in fact, been submitted in MMA.