Judo throws against a bent over opponent

[DatCutman]

Hello Judo friends,

I've recently (last week) started judo. I try to practice not only in judo class, but in the odd BJJ class where we're allowed to stand up. Now, my knowledge of Judo is minimal. But what throws do you recommend against an opponent that is shooting his hips straight back, body almost at a 90 degree angle?

Logically it would seem like a throw where I bring his hips up and head down would work, since his body is already in that position, like a hip throw. But I can't get my hips back far enough to reach his! It's quite the conundrum for me. Any advice?

 

[Human Bass]

When the opponent is like that, they are giving the upper label grip for free (behind neck), that itself isn't a takedown but a great way to control and setup.

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you're talking about BJJ, the best thing to do isn't Judo at all: just snap him down and go into a front headlock. The Judo answer would be something like an uchi mata, but that's very risky against a low, based opponent in terms of getting countered. Better just to snap him down and try to go to the back.

Sacrifice throws like tomoe nage and sumi gaeshi (going over the back with the grip) are options too, if you're okay with playing guard if that fails.

 

[Jrange]

If you're talking about BJJ, the best thing to do isn't Judo at all: just snap him down and go into a front headlock. The Judo answer would be something like an uchi mata, but that's very risky against a low, based opponent in terms of getting countered. Better just to snap him down and try to go to the back.

Sacrifice throws like tomoe nage and sumi gaeshi (going over the back with the grip) are options too, if you're okay with playing guard if that fails.

I agree but id like to add, if youre going for a submission instead of taking the back, after you snap down id prefer to go for the missouri roll.

 

[efficientjudo]

Depending on your level of judo, you can start to force an upright posture from your opponent through good gripping - which opens up a wider repertoire of possible techniques - Dave Camarillo talks about this in his book Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu

When an opponent is leaning forwards, you don't want to enter for a hip throw, because as you've pointed out, its difficult to get your hips into play - what you want to do use the fact they leaning forwards / off balancing themselves to execute throws like:
Sumi-gaeshi
Yoko-tomoe-nage
Sasae-tsurikomi-ashi
Uki-waza
Uki-otoshi

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Hello Judo friends,

I've recently (last week) started judo. I try to practice not only in judo class, but in the odd BJJ class where we're allowed to stand up. Now, my knowledge of Judo is minimal. But what throws do you recommend against an opponent that is shooting his hips straight back, body almost at a 90 degree angle?

Logically it would seem like a throw where I bring his hips up and head down would work, since his body is already in that position, like a hip throw. But I can't get my hips back far enough to reach his! It's quite the conundrum for me. Any advice?

If you include traditional judo (that means before 2008 in this context), morote gari and kata guruma (dropping to your knee version, like the fireman's carry in wrestling) are good against bent over opponents. Both of course are illegal in modern judo. Also, getting a strong back grip and forcing them down allows for several leg/reaping techniques such as osoto gari, uchi gari, as you can catch their reaction.

If you have a good guard (meaning you're also happy if the throw fails and your opponent ends up in your guard) then throws like sumi gaeshi and tomo nage are good (you drop under the person, if they're that bent over then they'll either end up on top of you or be thrown, depending on your skill ... make sure you have control of their arms when you try these). Maia did this against Sonnen for instance.

However, if you started judo a week ago, its going to be awhile before you will be able to do any of them against a resisting opponent (in judo or BJJ). Be patient, work on your throws, you'll find one or two will start to feel natural, and you'll be able to set it up even if your opponent bends over (or not).

 

[judoka loca]

Yoko tomoe nage, sacrifice armbar (for BJJ), snapdown, sumi gaeshi or standing guillotine. Take your time, use proper set up and kuzushi and if you feel you're forcing it, you're doing it wrong

 

[Zankou]

Some great advice in this thread. Definitely agree with taking a high grip and snapping them down repeatedly. As they bring their legs forward and try to regain posture against the snap by straightening up, then you can pull them up for a forward throw, but realistically you are better off just snapping them down like crazy until you can ankle pick/kouchi/single them.

Last, some butt-back BJJ guys are incredibly defensive, looking only to counter, and your aim with them should be to just rag doll them with snaps and head control until they get exhausted. Especially for heavy opponents, they whale out quickly in that scenario.

 

[dimmyfinster]

I think Gui Mendes likes this as his setup to fake pull to ankle pick. If their butt is high, then they are vulnerable to the tomoe. But if their butt is too low, then they are vulnerable to the fake pull to ankle pick.


At least that's how he explains it, I think.

 

[killakoy]

Coming from BJJ, your quickest path to results is going to be the sacrifice throws since it less risk in leaving you vulnerable to bad positions. A throw like sumi-gaeshi is not going to have a long learning curve like a traditional hip or forward throw.

For example:

 

[Chungungo]

Honestly I saw my sensei throw a good BJJ blue belt that trains with us and is way better now like 30 times just pushing him and/or ouchi gari. The guy had the hips so charge backwards that he was falling easily.

I like sasae from high or georgian grip, you don´t always need fast forward turning throws against BJJ.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Anything with a nice deep grip down the back.

They say not to give your back to a BJJ guy on the ground. Don't give your back to a judo guy on the feet either!

 

[The Thrill]

i didnt read all the replies so im sure its been said, but either get a high lapel or collar grip and snap their face into the mat over and over for like an entire week


next week youll come in and their posture will be magically straighter

 

[Forceof1]

Our kids program has a great judo instructor who helps teach- other schools are starting to be wary, and some of their kids are adopting the posture you are describing.

I just spent the first half of class last night teaching kids to get double lapel control and drop back snap downs (if their opponent takes that posture). We have a scrimmage this weekend, and I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

 

[Balto]

Sumi gaeshi is nearly unstoppable if the guy is truly just hanging out at 90 degrees hip bend with straight legs.

BJJ makes you naturally good at sacrifice throws. That super defensive hips back posture is why I think the entire class of sacrifice throws was even invented in the first place. It's a perfect match so I'd just go with that.

If he's bending his knees also and getting so low that you can't come underneath him, then you can just sprawl on top and do the front headlock series. That's another thing BJJ guys are naturally good at.

 

[TeamKenpo]

I really like sumi-gaeshi here. Very high percentage and low risk (you basically just are pulling guard if it fails) takedown in this case.

 

[Zankou]

Sumi gaeshi is a great throw to work into, but it requires dominant grips and good penetration (lol) to hit effectively against a defensive opponent. If you can fight your way into a deep belt grip or cross grip, it’s nasty, but then again if you dominate grips that heavily you can usually hit most anything you want at that point.

Sacrifice throws against a defensive opponent don’t work very well unless you pre-torch them on grips and posture. Most defensive players are just waiting to collapse onto your shot or guard pull, that is their entire plan, so you are not likely to catch them off guard without setting it up aggressively. Plus if your opponent grabs your leg they may well rack up 2 points off a failed sacrifice throw. That can be the match, particularly against a douchey defensive staller.

Basically I think sacrifice throws are valuable, but *not* the answer for executing weak judo against a defensive BJJ opponent. How often do you see sacrifice throws in BJJ comps? Rarely, and when you do, the thrower is usually a judo beast.

 

[The Thrill]

Some great advice in this thread. Definitely agree with taking a high grip and snapping them down repeatedly. As they bring their legs forward and try to regain posture against the snap by straightening up, then you can pull them up for a forward throw, but realistically you are better off just snapping them down like crazy until you can ankle pick/kouchi/single them.

Last, some butt-back BJJ guys are incredibly defensive, looking only to counter, and your aim with them should be to just rag doll them with snaps and head control until they get exhausted. Especially for heavy opponents, they whale out quickly in that scenario.

along these lines, when i first started judo i had a training partner that would basically hang on a thai clinch on me nonstop for the entire practice, without fail by the end of the practice he was having his way with me because i was simply concerned with not having my face mushed into the mat

 

[Balto]

How often do you see sacrifice throws in BJJ comps? Rarely, and when you do, the thrower is usually a true judo beast.

They are rare in BJJ competition only because experienced competitors just pull guard as soon as they realize they are outgripped.

But if your goal is to get top position, them being forced to pull guard is fine. If your goal was to get bottom position, you should just pull guard yourself.

The ideal of getting two points for a takedown is not consistently achievable enough to base a game around it. The fact that the best Judo guy in BJJ right now (Travis Stevens) advocates guard pulling as a strategy is a pretty key observation.

Getting the deep belt grip and doing sumi gaeshi is pretty easy to train even white belts to do. I have several white belts who can hit it consistently. The fact that at higher levels of competition the guy will probably just pull guard before the takedown doesn't matter so much since the ultimate goal was to force top position anyway.

There are a few steal strategies to try to get two points (unexpected foot sweep from a distance, quick shot, fake guard pull to the ankle pick, etc.) But I don't think it's really possible to consistently expect to get takedown points for your top position no matter how good you are.

The value I find in knowing takedowns is that it puts the choice of top vs bottom position entirely in my hands. Otherwise I'd dependent on what my opponent wants to do. I figure that if even a Judo Olympic medalist can't score two points with his takedowns, there's not much hope for me beyond choosing top/bottom. I train with multiple NCAA wrestling champs too, and they can't consistently score takedown points in the BJJ ruleset either. So for me getting two points in a tournament is just a bonus.

 

[Zankou]

My problem is they basically end up being a really shitty guard pull technique. A much more realistic and effective setup, IMO, is the Mendes guard pull/single leg combo. You either get a good guard pull or a solid takedown chance.

You are right that if you get deep grips your opponent will just pull guard, but that’s exactly why you need to think through the strategy, and not assume that getting deep grips is realistic and beneficial. If you want to force the other guy to play guard, as is often the case for very heavy divisions, it can be a smart tactic. In light divisions, not so useful.