Karate blackbelts in MMA

[Azam]

It's not fair to dismiss Jones just because he's Jones. The method he used to beat Machida is important. He pressured Machida back near the cage and landed a big right hand before taking Machida down and busting him up with elbows. After Machinda got up, Jones pressured him back to the cage and used a feint to get Machida to throw a predictable punch (his reverse punch counter), and traded his right hand for that to catch Machida in the pocket. Machida went down, and Jones put him to sleep with that guillotine. That's the basic pressure, make them fight in the pocket strategy that always beats these long range guys.

Shogun arguably beat Machida twice, first with pressure and low kicks then by throwing at the same time as Machida just like Jones did. Weidman, who was never fast, walked Machida down and beat him with basic cage cutting and pressure. Romero is older than Machida. Rockhold didn't beat Machida with speed, he's not that fast and Machida looked significantly faster early.

Machida is probably the most successful representation of karate in MMA. He's a former champ and a great fighter, but he still lost to the same things all these long range styles lose to.

I agree with what you're saying about pressure in general terms. But I think it's not as straight forward as just pressure - there are multiple variables at work. Pressuring is a sound strategy but it doesn't always work - as others have pointed out - some have attempted to pressure Machida but unfortunately it hasn't always worked.

You can say well they didn't pressure intelligently but I think that's being a bit disingenuous. Pressuring works well when you already have the physical/technical prerequisites there already - it doesn't work so well when you don't. For example outfighting can be a sound strategy to beat certain styles of fighting but it's very dependent on you have the physical/technical requisites to make it work effectively - like having a longer reach. This is why others that have tried to pressure Machida have failed whereas others have had success.

I think it's very clear as day that age has caught up with Machida. I was saying it a few years ago - that Weidman fight took even more out of him. Machida is at the tail end of his career and his reactions/speed aren't what they once were. I think @panamaican is spot on with that. Romero is a year older but he started fighting in 09. Machida has been doing it since 03. Also we all know deep down that Romero is on those Cuban supplements.

Jones did pressure him but a reach advantage of nearly 11 inches also plays a big factor when Machida is basically an in/out fighter who clearly had trouble penetrating that 11 inch reach advantage and was getting cut off/pressured at the same time. I think Jones reach advantage gives everyone problems in the striking department not just Machida.

Machida was tagging off on Rockhold in the first. Pressure is not what took him out- Machida gassed when Rockhold wrestle fucked him to the ground at the end of the first round. When the second round started Machida was out of gas - it's much easier to cut off space/pressure or take advantage of someone when they've got nothing left in the tank.

Otherwise no other issue.

That said I don't think these in/out fighters really need to learn a whole new game of how to fight in the pocket. They just need to learn how to prevent someone from cutting them off - by using more lateral movement and not being too defensive - it's harder to pressure someone when they are engaging - it's easier to do if they keep conceding space by moving off.

 

[Tayski]

isnt Taleb a kyokushin guy?

Nope. No Karate background.

He did a bit of Jeet Kune Do when he was young but otherwise mostly just trained MMA with no specific striking background.

 

[Hotora86]

NEW FIGHTER ADDED !!!

NAME: Damien Brown
COUNTRY: Australia
STYLE: Zen Do Kai
RANK: Black belt (1?)
RECORD: 17-10
WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damien_Brown_(fighter)

Damien Brown is a former XFC and BRACE Lightweight Champion. He held a 5 win streak prior to his signing by the UFC.

UFC 201 vs Cesar Arzamendia:

 

[Tayski]

I think it's very clear as day that age has caught up with Machida. I was saying it a few years ago - that Weidman fight took even more out of him. Machida is at the tail end of his career and his reactions/speed aren't what they once were. I think @panamaican is spot on with that. Romero is a year older but he started fighting in 09. Machida has been doing it since 03. Also we all know deep down that Romero is on those Cuban supplements.

Jones did pressure him but a reach advantage of nearly 11 inches also plays a big factor when Machida is basically an in/out fighter who clearly had trouble penetrating that 11 inch reach advantage and was getting cut off/pressured at the same time. I think Jones reach advantage gives everyone problems in the striking department not just Machida.

Machida was tagging off on Rockhold in the first. Pressure is not what took him out- Machida gassed when Rockhold wrestle fucked him to the ground at the end of the first round. When the second round started Machida was out of gas - it's much easier to cut off space/pressure or take advantage of someone when they've got nothing left in the tank.

Otherwise no other issue.

That said I don't think these in/out fighters really need to learn a whole new game of how to fight in the pocket. They just need to learn how to prevent someone from cutting them off - by using more lateral movement and not being too defensive - it's harder to pressure someone when they are engaging - it's easier to do if they keep conceding space by moving off.

The reason for Machida's downfall isn't because age caught up with him. The best he's accomplished in the UFC is his run to the LHW belt winning against Tito Ortiz by decision and then KO'ing Thiago Silva and Rashad Evans to get the belt + then defending it once against Shogun to a decision.

Since getting KO'd by Shogun and losing the belt after 1 defence at age 31 he never accomplished much again. He lost to all the best fighters after: Rampage, Jon Jones, Phil Davis, Chris Weidman, Luke Rockhold and Yoel Romero. Literally his best wins since getting KO'd by Shogun are against out of prime fighters like Randy Couture and Dan Henderson.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

The reason for Machida's downfall isn't because age caught up with him. The best he's accomplished in the UFC is his run to the LHW belt winning against Tito Ortiz by decision and then KO'ing Thiago Silva and Rashad Evans to get the belt + then defending it once against Shogun to a decision.

Since getting KO'd by Shogun and losing the belt after 1 defence at age 31 he never accomplished much again. He lost to all the best fighters after: Rampage, Jon Jones, Phil Davis, Chris Weidman, Luke Rockhold and Yoel Romero. Literally his best wins since getting KO'd by Shogun are against out of prime fighters like Randy Couture and Dan Henderson.

what about mousasi and bader?

 

[Azam]

The reason for Machida's downfall isn't because age caught up with him. The best he's accomplished in the UFC is his run to the LHW belt winning against Tito Ortiz by decision and then KO'ing Thiago Silva and Rashad Evans to get the belt + then defending it once against Shogun to a decision.

Since getting KO'd by Shogun and losing the belt after 1 defence at age 31 he never accomplished much again. He lost to all the best fighters after: Rampage, Jon Jones, Phil Davis, Chris Weidman, Luke Rockhold and Yoel Romero. Literally his best wins since getting KO'd by Shogun are against out of prime fighters like Randy Couture and Dan Henderson.

Not sure I agree with you on this Tay.

He's actually achieved a lot (how many can boast they've been ufc champs?) - he never reached the heights of champ again at light heavyweight because Jon Jones came into the picture and pretty much obliterated everyone (except Rumble, Gustafsson and arguably Cormier). I think that's why a lot of great fighters in that division including Machida never reached the heights of being champion because Jones is there.

Those losses are arguable though - he beat Rampage (even Rampage thought he lost) and he beat Phil Davis (I think most people think that was a controversial decision). He pretty much fought and won against the best in the light heavyweight division at the time except Jones - so not entirely sure why you're saying he never beat the best after his run. He moved to middleweight (pushed into the top 5), beat a prime Mousasi and fought for the middleweight championship where he did fight pretty competitively against Weidman but lost.

His loses to Rockhold and Romero are coming at the tail end of his career - he fought them at 37 years of age. He's now 39 and approaching 40.

Tbh I think he would've have been more competitive if he had remained in the light heavweight division - since he had a clear speed advantage which he doesn't really have at middleweight. But I suppose he wants to win a title - can't do that with Jones in the division.

 

[CFGroup]

Not sure I agree with you on this Tay.

He's actually achieved a lot (how many can boast they've been ufc champs?) - he never reached the heights of champ again at light heavyweight because Jon Jones came into the picture and pretty much obliterated everyone (except Rumble, Gustafsson and arguably Cormier). I think that's why a lot of great fighters in that division including Machida never reached the heights of being champion because Jones is there.

Those losses are arguable though - he beat Rampage (even Rampage thought he lost) and he beat Phil Davis (I think most people think that was a controversial decision). He pretty much fought and won against the best in the light heavyweight division at the time except Jones - so not entirely sure why you're saying he never beat the best after his run. He moved to middleweight (pushed into the top 5), beat a prime Mousasi and fought for the middleweight championship where he did fight pretty competitively against Weidman but lost.

His loses to Rockhold and Romero are coming at the tail end of his career - he fought them at 37 years of age. He's now 39 and approaching 40.

Tbh I think he would've have been more competitive if he had remained in the light heavweight division - since he had a clear speed advantage which he doesn't really have at middleweight. But I suppose he wants to win a title - can't do that with Jones in the division.

I agree about Jones, Machida is comfortable with a three month training camp at LHW and too thin and lacks energy reserves from cutting at MW. He'd be a great Cruiserweight 195lb in Kickboxing. Going down another 10lb's is just to hard on the body for walk around weight enjoying hamburgers and deserts of 210 to 220lb's.

Also I think Machida didn't full commit to doing what I think we've all agreed distance fighters need to adopt to their game plan.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Machida never did full contact comp before MMA? I've seen clips of point fighting, but not MT or KK type no pads full contact.

I know I'm repeating myself, but there's a quality to the knockdown close quarters competition arts like MT and KK that my limited experience from TKD and ammy kickboxing see's as having a better conditioning base for MMA than point Karate sparring. I think the continued combination of the two is and will produce exceptional fighters.

I don't think it was necessarily age with Machida, but as a long time fan his arsenal is predictable from watching all his fights many times(I still trained that TD pivot principle he used against Tito until my injury got too bad). It takes all your training time to keep a specific number of movements and striking patterns at the top level. At some point theirs only so much you can train. He seems to have reached that point done very well, till alternate tactics were utilized to defeat him. No shame in that, just the way it is.

But then again my philosophy isn't winner takes all. If a guy can stand in with the best and walk out of the ring after 15 or 25 minutes holding his own than props to him and his training team and tactics. Machida did that way to many times to fault him to much on his losses.

 

[Tayski]

Not sure I agree with you on this Tay.

He's actually achieved a lot (how many can boast they've been ufc champs?) - he never reached the heights of champ again at light heavyweight because Jon Jones came into the picture and pretty much obliterated everyone (except Rumble, Gustafsson and arguably Cormier). I think that's why a lot of great fighters in that division including Machida never reached the heights of being champion because Jones is there.

Those losses are arguable though - he beat Rampage (even Rampage thought he lost) and he beat Phil Davis (I think most people think that was a controversial decision). He pretty much fought and won against the best in the light heavyweight division at the time except Jones - so not entirely sure why you're saying he never beat the best after his run. He moved to middleweight (pushed into the top 5), beat a prime Mousasi and fought for the middleweight championship where he did fight pretty competitively against Weidman but lost.

His loses to Rockhold and Romero are coming at the tail end of his career - he fought them at 37 years of age. He's now 39 and approaching 40.

Tbh I think he would've have been more competitive if he had remained in the light heavweight division - since he had a clear speed advantage which he doesn't really have at middleweight. But I suppose he wants to win a title - can't do that with Jones in the division.

I think you're being biased here. What I'm saying is that he's supposedly the Karateka who's achieved the most in MMA while relatively keeping that Karate style, however his best accomplishments are his run to the belt and then defending it once. Winning against some fighters who at the time weren't even top10 such as Mousasi and Bader and some out of prime fighters isn't what makes you a legend. Mousasi definitely wasn't in his prime when Machida beat him, Mousasi is in his prime now.

Machida is a great fighter who's achieved a lot don't get me wrong, but he's nowhere near the best ever LHW's.

 

[Tayski]

I don't think it was necessarily age with Machida, but as a long time fan his arsenal is predictable from watching all his fights many times(I still trained that TD pivot principle he used against Tito until my injury got too bad). It takes all your training time to keep a specific number of movements and striking patterns at the top level. At some point theirs only so much you can train. He seems to have reached that point done very well, till alternate tactics were utilized to defeat him. No shame in that, just the way it is.

This.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I think you're being biased here. What I'm saying is that he's supposedly the Karateka who's achieved the most in MMA while relatively keeping that Karate style, however his best accomplishments are his run to the belt and then defending it once. Winning against some fighters who at the time weren't even top10 such as Mousasi and Bader and some out of prime fighters isn't what makes you a legend. Mousasi definitely wasn't in his prime when Machida beat him, Mousasi is in his prime now.

Machida is a great fighter who's achieved a lot don't get me wrong, but he's nowhere near the best ever LHW's.

how did machida get a title shot from beating mousasi if he wasnt top ten? Mousasi was a big name and could very well have gotten the TS himself if he had won. How do you know the rankings of Bader and Mousasi at the time? Bader also just beat Jackson who just had a title shot.

 

[Tayski]

how did machida get a title shot from beating mousasi if he wasnt top ten? Mousasi was a big name and could very well have gotten the TS himself if he had won. How do you know the rankings of Bader and Mousasi at the time?

I'm not making it up, they weren't even ranked in the top10. Just check it out, you can see it on this pic for instance:

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I'm not making it up, they weren't even ranked in the top10. Just check it out, you can see it on this pic for instance:

what was mousasi's rank after machida beat him then? and I couldnt find anything for bader's ranking when he fought machida.

 

[Tayski]

what was mousasi's rank after machida beat him then? and I couldnt find anything for bader's ranking when he fought machida.

Mousasi's rank after Machida beat him was 12th a month after the fight, as per the waybackmachine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140314113507/http://www.ufc.com/rankings

Regarding Badr, I think back in 2012 they have didn't the rankings in place yet however we all know that Ryan Bader wasn't a top LHW.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

what was mousasi's rank after machida beat him then? and I couldnt find anything for bader's ranking when he fought machida.

I think in regard to Bader that is debatable as he just has a win over quintin jackson, who was fresh off a title shot. Mousasi may have been ranked at 12 but even then he was better than the likes of francis carmount, tim boetch ,costas philipo, etc who were above him. I think we all know that and it had alot to do with him being new to the division. He was held in high regard and thats why machida got a title shot.

 

[Azam]

I think you're being biased here. What I'm saying is that he's supposedly the Karateka who's achieved the most in MMA while relatively keeping that Karate style, however his best accomplishments are his run to the belt and then defending it once. Winning against some fighters who at the time weren't even top10 such as Mousasi and Bader and some out of prime fighters isn't what makes you a legend. Mousasi definitely wasn't in his prime when Machida beat him, Mousasi is in his prime now.

Machida is a great fighter who's achieved a lot don't get me wrong, but he's nowhere near the best ever LHW's.

I don't think I'm being bias tbh. You said after his title run he lost to all the best fighters - that isn't true. He beat the best in the light heavyweight division at the time excluding Jones and Shogun.

I think that's disingenous regarding Mousasi. The reason he wasn't ranked in the top 10 in the ufc rankings was because he had recently joined the organisation (I think his second fight in the ufc was Machida). Mousasi has been a top 10 middleweight in mma for a while including back then. That UFC ranking picture doesn't tell you the whole story - of course if you saw that you'd think Mousasi wasn't a top 10 fighter.

Ask anyone who's been watching Mousasi before the UFC (pride, dream, strikeforce) and I'm sure 99% would agree that Mousasi was easily a top 10 fighter even back then - maybe even top 5. That's why the winner of that fight got a shot at Weidman.

Mousasi has been on the ball for a long time. He's only hit his stride now because the competition he's been given aren't on his level.


Apart from that yes his age has caught up with him - I think you'd be hard put to deny that age has nothing to do with it - have you seen his last fights?

Of course it's not just his age - his reliance on that style of striking only has been his undoing. Whereas everyone else was evolving - his karate game didn't really evolve too much because he was beating people. Now people have answers to his striking & the whole general level has gone up - his striking is no longer as dominant as it once was. The fact that he's at the tail end of his career has only made that much worse - in the past he could get away with it not so much anymore especially when he no longer has the speed advantage.

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

I mean, what counts as a karate style and what doesn't? How many parts of a boat can you replace before its a different boat?

Look at a lot of Dutch style kick boxers. Ignoring the fact that theres numerous styles in Holland, the entire method we understand as being theirs was adapted from and is still VERY close to Kyokushin, you can see it in their love for pocket fighting, body shots and ending combos with low kicks. Ernesto Hoost, the quintessential Dutch fighter, his coach at Vos Gym was a Kyokushin guy.

Its kind of like BJJ, does it become something else if you take off the gi?

 

[Hotora86]

Mousasi's rank after Machida beat him was 12th a month after the fight, as per the waybackmachine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140314113507/http://www.ufc.com/rankings

Regarding Badr, I think back in 2012 they have didn't the rankings in place yet however we all know that Ryan Bader wasn't a top LHW.

Sorry @Tayski but you're wrong on Bader, he was ranked #9 just before facing Lyoto:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/3/Sherdogs-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-40911

He's ranked #3 currently so he's been a top LHW for many years now.

 

[Hotora86]

NEW FIGHTER ADDED !!!

NAME: Naoki Inoue
COUNTRY: Japan
STYLE: Hakushinkai
RANK: Black belt (1 dan)
RECORD: 11-0
WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naoki_Inoue
UFC: http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Naoki-Inoue

Dude is 11-0 and in the UFC! And nobody seems to notice!

 

[Tayski]

Sorry @Tayski but you're wrong on Bader, he was ranked #9 just before facing Lyoto:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/3/Sherdogs-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-40911

He's ranked #3 currently so he's been a top LHW for many years now.

I don't understand how you can consider Bader a top LHW fighter. He got finished by Jon Jones, Tito Ortiz, Machida, Glover Teixeira and Anthony Jonhson. His best wins are decision wins against fighters like Rampage and Rashad Evans who were way past their prime and on their way out of the UFC (it was literally Rampage's last fight in the UFC), and then a recent TKO win over a washed out 40 years old Minotouro Nogueira.

Maybe he was unofficially ranked 9th on Sherdog when he fought Machida but that doesn't mean much to be honest. You can't possibly consider him ranked #3 now while he's not even in the UFC rankings anymore: http://uk.ufc.com/rankings
Imagine how he would do against the likes of Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, Anthony Johnson, Alexander Gustaffson or Jimmy Manuwa.

 

[Hotora86]

I don't understand how you can consider Bader a top LHW fighter. He got finished by Jon Jones, Tito Ortiz, Machida, Glover Teixeira and Anthony Jonhson. His best wins are decision wins against fighters like Rampage and Rashad Evans who were way past their prime and on their way out of the UFC (it was literally Rampage's last fight in the UFC), and then a recent TKO win over a washed out 40 years old Minotouro Nogueira.

Maybe he was unofficially ranked 9th on Sherdog when he fought Machida but that doesn't mean much to be honest. You can't possibly consider him ranked #3 now while he's not even in the UFC rankings anymore: http://uk.ufc.com/rankings
Imagine how he would do against the likes of Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, Anthony Johnson, Alexander Gustaffson or Jimmy Manuwa.

I'm just pointing out that he was ranked in the top 10 by SD at the time. I'm not saying he's a world beater but he's had his share of success and isn't some nobody.

He is ranked #3 by SD right now:
http://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/2/Sherdogs-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-121431

Maybe it's only due to stats and wins over old "big names" but I'd still insist that Bader is in the top 10.