Karate blackbelts in MMA

[Hotora86]

Today is a great day to celebrate the Karate Mae Geri! If do right, no can defend!

Former UFC champ Belfort?
MAE GERI KO!

Former UFC champ Couture?
TOBI MAE GERI KO!

Future UFC champ Franklin?
MAE GERI (+ gyaku tsuki) KO!

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Today is a great day to celebrate the Karate Mae Geri! If do right, no can defend!

Former UFC champ Belfort?
MAE GERI KO!

Former UFC champ Couture?
TOBI MAE GERI KO!

Future UFC champ Franklin?
MAE GERI (+ gyaku tsuki) KO!

I have been saying for years that Machida would beat Vitor, but I must admit I thought it would be Vitor charging into a Machida punch

 

[Azam]

I had no idea Kyokushin had point fighting tournaments! I just found a few vids on YT and I can't really agree with you - it doesn't look like Shotokan very much. The footwork is completely different and the gratuitous amount of lead hand tetsui and uraken was just... weird.





No offense but perhaps Kyokushin should just stick to what it's best at - knockdown rules. Kyokushin doing point fighting just looks odd.

Allow me to rephrase that - it looks like very amateurish Shotokan. Shitty mc dojo-like Shotokan if you will.

But to the casual outsider - they’d mistake that for your average Karate school.

Also did you pick a bad video?



That isn’t that bad - not great. Agree with you they’re better at knockdown.

 

[spacetime]

Allow me to rephrase that - it looks like very amateurish Shotokan. Shitty mc dojo-like Shotokan if you will.

But to the casual outsider - they’d mistake that for your average Karate school.

Also did you pick a bad video?



That isn’t that bad - not great. Agree with you they’re better at knockdown.

Isn't that just plain shinken shobu Kyokushin? I thought that was full contact. The youtube reels suggests it is.

 

[spacetime]

Personally while TKD definitely shares a root with Shotokan imo they are different arts. But I wouldn’t complain if someone mentioned how similar they are - they share similarities.

I’m looking specifically at the syllabus/ethos of both styles. That’s where I feel they differ. Some techniques are the same but most of the forms/kata are different to Karate, as well as physical requirements, how each style is trained & structured - how some techniques aren’t shared like 360 kick for example. On top of that the ethos/culture of both styles significantly differ.

ITF is closer to Shotokan than WTF - but even then I feel there are enough differences that you can classify them as separate arts.

On the other hand - Kyokushin is closer imho to Shotokan than TKD.

The ethos of Kyokushin is pretty identical to Japanese Karate. Add to that the syllabus is also identical to most of Karate - it shares the same kata/forms as goju/Shotokan, the same techniques and similar training structure.

Also add to that in TKD you’re wearing the dobok while in Kyokushin you’re wearing the gi.

The only difference between Shotokan & Kyokushin really is the sparring/competition formats (this is where TKD is closer to Shotokan).

I mean if you watch Kyokushin clicker tournaments and didn’t know that those were Kyokushin point fighters you’d think they might be Shotokan or a similar derived style.

That’s really imo what makes Shotokan & Kyokushin very different at least when both are applied. But even with this difference they still share more similarities with another than TKD does with Shotokan.

Huh? Kyokushin Kais don't punch or kick the same as Shotokan.

 

[Guestx]

I think you are thinking of the below clip:



It says TKD but it might as well be Kempo... because John Kavanagh apparently holds a 2nd degree Black Belt in Kenpo Karate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kavanagh_(martial_artist)

Actually I think it was this one. Even if the doboks didn't give it away, it's obvious that is some TKD shit he's practicing (at least until the capoeira bit at the very end).

 

[spacetime]

I think you are thinking of the below clip:



It says TKD but it might as well be Kempo... because John Kavanagh apparently holds a 2nd degree Black Belt in Kenpo Karate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kavanagh_(martial_artist)

John Kavanagh is wearing a TaeKwondo dobok

 

[Tayski]

I had no idea Kyokushin had point fighting tournaments! I just found a few vids on YT and I can't really agree with you - it doesn't look like Shotokan very much. The footwork is completely different and the gratuitous amount of lead hand tetsui and uraken was just... weird.





No offense but perhaps Kyokushin should just stick to what it's best at - knockdown rules. Kyokushin doing point fighting just looks odd.

Did you purposely pick the worst possible Kyokushin clicker videos?

The skill level on those videos is atrocious, most of them are karate beginners and I'm wondering how they seem to be wearing black belts in the 2nd video :S

It's actually quite ironical for somebody arguing that American Kickboxing / Sports Karate is still Karate to say that Kyokushin Clicker doesn't look like Shotokan point scoring. I've competed several years in Shotokan and also did a couple of Kyokushin Clicker tournaments for fun and it's virtually identical. The rules are very similar apart from Clicker rules being continuous scoring and the officials not being very found of sweeps. What I learnt when competing in Shotokan transferred perfectly to the rule set, it was essentially the same thing apart from remembering not to reset after landing a strike and just continue.

The clicker ruleset and tournaments are relatively new and Shihan Da Costa has been trying to grow it as a side format to the classic knockdown rules of kyokushin. Clicker is mostly only present in the UK so far and only a handful of Kyokuhin Karatekas compete in those tournaments (mostly beginners who are afraid or feel unready for knockdown tournaments) so of course the skill level is nowhere near the one in Shotokan tournaments, in particular because the real Kyokushin fighters tend to stick to Knockdown fighting and just laugh at the idea of "fighting" without contact. I remember when we told our sensei at our dojo that we "fought" at the clicker tournament at the weekend, he scoffed and said "that's not fighting that's playing".

Anyway, you can find better videos than those you posted even though as I said the overall skill level in those tournaments is still very low. It's extremely similar to Shotokan:

 

[Azam]

Isn't that just plain shinken shobu Kyokushin? I thought that was full contact. The youtube reels suggests it is.

No it's kyokushin clicker tournaments - from my old kyokushin organisation before I switched to kudo & uechi ryu.

 

[Hotora86]

Did you purposely pick the worst possible Kyokushin clicker videos?

The skill level on those videos is atrocious, most of them are karate beginners and I'm wondering how they seem to be wearing black belts in the 2nd video :S

It's actually quite ironical for somebody arguing that American Kickboxing / Sports Karate is still Karate to say that Kyokushin Clicker doesn't look like Shotokan point scoring. I've competed several years in Shotokan and also did a couple of Kyokushin Clicker tournaments for fun and it's virtually identical. The rules are very similar apart from Clicker rules being continuous scoring and the officials not being very found of sweeps. What I learnt when competing in Shotokan transferred perfectly to the rule set, it was essentially the same thing apart from remembering not to reset after landing a strike and just continue.

The clicker ruleset and tournaments are relatively new and Shihan Da Costa has been trying to grow it as a side format to the classic knockdown rules of kyokushin. Clicker is mostly only present in the UK so far and only a handful of Kyokuhin Karatekas compete in those tournaments (mostly beginners who are afraid or feel unready for knockdown tournaments) so of course the skill level is nowhere near the one in Shotokan tournaments, in particular because the real Kyokushin fighters tend to stick to Knockdown fighting and just laugh at the idea of "fighting" without contact. I remember when we told our sensei at our dojo that we "fought" at the clicker tournament at the weekend, he scoffed and said "that's not fighting that's playing".

Anyway, you can find better videos than those you posted even though as I said the overall skill level in those tournaments is still very low. It's extremely similar to Shotokan:

Have to admit that these do look much better. I just clicked the top search results.

Perhaps mixing knockdown with clicker tournaments could help Kyokushin fighters with the "no head punches" issue?

 

[spacetime]

Have to admit that these do look much better. I just clicked the top search results.

Perhaps mixing knockdown with clicker tournaments could help Kyokushin fighters with the "no head punches" issue?

Help them for what though? If they don't want to compete in face punching competitions, they don't need to learn it

 

[Tayski]

Perhaps mixing knockdown with clicker tournaments could help Kyokushin fighters with the "no head punches" issue?

That's exactly what the IFK is trying to address with clicker. It teaches the right distancing when head punches are allowed without the contact part.

A lot of karatekas are hobbyists with office jobs who don't want to risk turning up to work with a damaged face so full contact with head punches isn't their thing. Clicker is a good alternative for those who don't want to cross-train in combat sports like boxing, kickboxing, muay thai or mma.

 

[Guestx]

A lot of karatekas are hobbyists with office jobs who don't want to risk turning up to work with a damaged face so full contact with head punches isn't their thing.

This is what a lot of people need to understand about why point karate appeals to a lot of people. For a variety of reasons, not everyone is prepared to deal with either the cosmetic issues or the potential injuries that are likely to result from full-contact fighting. This isn't unreasonable.

Regarding Kyokushin specifically, I'm kind of surprised they haven't just adopted the space helmets already.

 

[Tayski]

Regarding Kyokushin specifically, I'm kind of surprised they haven't just adopted the space helmets already.

Why wear those if you only punch below the neck?

Besides, they don't prevent brain damage.

 

[Guestx]

Why wear those if you only punch below the neck?

Besides they don't prevent brain damage.

Your earlier comment was:

A lot of karatekas are hobbyists with office jobs who don't want to risk turning up to work with a damaged face so full contact with head punches isn't their thing.

I'm saying the space helmets are an obvious solution to this problem. You're right that they don't prevent brain damage, but they do prevent cuts, black eyes, broken jaws, broken noses, cracked orbitals, etc. It would be a way to introduce face punching in a manner that would alleviate the concerns for people who don't want to deal with all of the above.

I am assuming here that a lot of KK fighters are interested in seeing a competition format that allows punches to the head, but aren't interested in having their face rearranged.

 

[Hotora86]

Your earlier comment was:

A lot of karatekas are hobbyists with office jobs who don't want to risk turning up to work with a damaged face so full contact with head punches isn't their thing.

I'm saying the space helmets are an obvious solution to this problem. You're right that they don't prevent brain damage, but they do prevent cuts, black eyes, broken jaws, broken noses, cracked orbitals, etc. It would be a way to introduce face punching in a manner that would alleviate the concerns for people who don't want to deal with all of the above.

I am assuming here that a lot of KK fighters are interested in seeing a competition format that allows punches to the head, but aren't interested in having their face rearranged.

I have to agree, especially when you take into account that while knockdown does not allow face punching, it DOES allow face KICKING. And this it not something you wanna risk happening to you when you have a day job.

I may be wrong but I think the space helmet would protect from at least some of the impact.

 

[Guestx]

I may be wrong but I think the space helmet would protect from at least some of the impact.

I'm not sure what difference it would make to having your brain rattled but obviously it would prevent a ton of other injuries. Like I said in my last post, it's not even just about the cosmetic concerns but also about getting your fucking shit broke.

I have an acquaintance who ended up in the hospital after getting hit in a Shotokan tournament by a guy who didn't fully control his punch. His face was all fucked up and the doctors said if the broken bones had moved around differently under his skin then it potentially could've endangered his life. That happened in a SHOTOKAN tournament of all things. Just think about the possible results in a bout where someone is actually trying to punch you as hard as they can.

 

[spacetime]

Helmets do prevent brain damage somewhat. They are banned from Olympic Boxing due to the fact that helmets inhibits sloppy guards. Fighters get punched more with helmets because they get false sense of security

 

[Hotora86]

I'm not sure what difference it would make to having your brain rattled but obviously it would prevent a ton of other injuries. Like I said in my last post, it's not even just about the cosmetic concerns but also about getting your fucking shit broke.

I have an acquaintance who ended up in the hospital after getting hit in a Shotokan tournament by a guy who didn't fully control his punch. His face was all fucked up and the doctors said if the broken bones had moved around differently under his skin then it potentially could've endangered his life. That happened in a SHOTOKAN tournament of all things. Just think about the possible results in a bout where someone is actually trying to punch you as hard as they can.

Shotokan power confirmed. (sorry for your acquaintance)

 

[Guestx]

Shotokan power confirmed. (sorry for your acquaintance)

The fucked up thing is that was actually the second time he got badly hurt in a karate tournament, both times for the same reason, guys just not throwing with control. Just shows you what a jack hammer to the face can actually do to you.

After the doctors told him he could've died he was pretty gun shy after that and talking about maybe not competing anymore. He was actually pretty good though so I hope he got his confidence back. I haven't talked to him in years at this point.