Karate blocks against punches/weapons

Take legit fighters and have them apply the techniques and see what it looks like.

I've turned age uke into a overhook and worked from there. That move works.
 
From my experience those karate blocks do deflect well, but are too slow to follow up on and will get you over run. Apparently you need to apply them correctly, and they work. I've read you use them as strikes, or grabs, but if you use it as a strike and block with it and try to grab them, there arm already bounced away. Also, another thing I read is, instead of using your forearm bone, using the top of your forearm allows for using both the radius and the ulna to block at the same time. I think if I was using a karate block against a knife wielding attacker, I would use the last method, because then my veins on the underside of my arm are facing away from the blade.

The problem comes from us subscribing to systems that are largely untested, at least in a sense of being properly documented. Now if the founders were MMA fighters, or were known to be street ruffians, or even showed you in actual live sparring the effectiveness of the techniques then their credibility will be undeniable.

This may ruffle some feathers, but instead we have these little feeble guys who start associations and have rankings that are telling the public this works. Did the demonstrations come from non compliant fighting or are they largely as they are today with kata demonstrations and drilling? Or are we believing the legends that are passed down? I'm not denying that some of these guys were legit, but there needs to be more evidence and verification outside of your association to make me a firm believer.

Judo shows a fight, wrestling shows a fight, boxing shows a fight, bjj shows a fight.....you see the move set being applied full contact to a resisting opponent.

I am in karate now. I love it. I wish sometimes my fellow karateka wanted to fight more or train harder, but I love the environment. My sensei has told me "you coming to me as a fighter is a plus; you will progress faster".

I am able to make applications from kata, and techniques because I have been in street fights, I have boxed under a sanctioned gym, I have wrestled in h.s., therefore, conceptualizing is far easier.

It's like giving a shooter a new gun, show him the functions and he will apply. But if you don't know the first thing about marksmanship that gun will be very limited in its effectiveness in your hands.

When I make it to black belt, my students will not have false confidence and we will train like fighters. Straight up Cobra Kai lol. Seriously, there is a common sense approach to fighting, and there are principles that apply across the board.
 
I submit this as an example for discussion. it's hard to tell what Bader was trying to do (maybe switching stances cross or something?) but looks like Machida uses some kind of outward block away from his body, and about the same time throws his counter right. at the end, i believe Machida's left arm was inside of Bader's right arm. anyone know the proper name or description? i have zero karate training



Fairly common in sport karate, in several variations, but also present in kata, such as Naihanchi:
Chibana-Naihanchi-17.jpg
 
Fairly common in sport karate, in several variations, but also present in kata, such as Naihanchi:
Chibana-Naihanchi-17.jpg

Do you think the bunkai can come from strict adherence to this form or do you think that it would need some form of adaptation to work?

Can you describe a situation, doesn't have to be sport, where this movement pattern would work with reasonable success?

For example, from the Shotokan kata Heian Shodan I was able to extract a technique and used it as a hammer fist in live full contact sparring. It was not strict as seen in the kata, and it was a jumping hammer fist but it was effective and my inspiration came straight from the kata.

Thoughts?
 
Do you think the bunkai can come from strict adherence to this form or do you think that it would need some form of adaptation to work?

Can you describe a situation, doesn't have to be sport, where this movement pattern would work with reasonable success?

For example, from the Shotokan kata Heian Shodan I was able to extract a technique and used it as a hammer fist in live full contact sparring. It was not strict as seen in the kata, and it was a jumping hammer fist but it was effective and my inspiration came straight from the kata.

Thoughts?

Machida's use is pretty darn close, but there is pretty much always going to be some degree of variation. Of course, there is variation in the forms, as well--the Shotokan version of Naihanchi doesn't look exactly the way my example does, since the image I posted is from my style of Shorin-Ryu.

Even if you have the opportunity to use the exact application you intend, you have to adjust for the positioning/height/build/etc. of the opponent, and you may or may not have time to get into the ideal stance or position. Plus, there is no reason you can't take principles from the kata and work them in different ways, as needed. Even Funakoshi understood this, writing things like “Always perform kata exactly, combat is another matter," and “Never be shackled by the rituals of kata but instead move freely according to the opponent’s strengths and weaknesses.”

getting ready for a back kick?

Or trying to get knee injury on purpose to get on dat disability benefit

I know that the stance looks like it would be bad for the knees, but the femurs are turned to ensure that the knees track in-line with the feet, the same way you would with a squat, albeit inward instead of outward. It is a structural feature of the kata, likely introduced by Itosu Anko's exposure to the body conditioning and strengthening methods of Naha-Te. That inward turn can be useful in applying pressure to the opponent's legs, if you're in close, though. Not all versions utilize this stance, and not all practitioners turn their legs to the same degree, even if they do use this stance.
 
Machida's use is pretty darn close, but there is pretty much always going to be some degree of variation. Of course, there is variation in the forms, as well--the Shotokan version of Naihanchi doesn't look exactly the way my example does, since the image I posted is from my style of Shorin-Ryu.

Even if you have the opportunity to use the exact application you intend, you have to adjust for the positioning/height/build/etc. of the opponent, and you may or may not have time to get into the ideal stance or position. Plus, there is no reason you can't take principles from the kata and work them in different ways, as needed. Even Funakoshi understood this, writing things like “Always perform kata exactly, combat is another matter," and “Never be shackled by the rituals of kata but instead move freely according to the opponent’s strengths and weaknesses.”

I agree with these statements. The issue can be seen in knowing what works in what situation. Typically these adaptations made to the application portion I would argue comes from experience. You learn how to adjust in a fight from experience. Either you can make the adjustment or your coach (hopefully experienced) will have an eye to tell you the adjustments to make. Example: "stop circling into the right hand" "uppercut him when he changes levels" "stop head hunting, jab to the body" etc.

Machida is often referenced, and yes he is a great example of karate. However, he is an outlier in the fact that well, he is a former UFC champion. lol. He is no stranger to full contact competition on top of his kata training. I think without the fight portion of training it can become difficult to dissect the kata portion.
 
Style like Karate and Kung Fu were created based on treoria without any real practice.

This is why it is full of Kata and mysticism.
Lol. You want mysticism?

Hermes.jpg

This is from a European martial arts book ("Die zwölf Schlüssel des Basilius Valentius"/"The twelve keys of Basilius Valentius; shown is the "zweite Schlüssel" / "second key"). Books wrote about "manyfold secret arts hidden in the art of fencing" and of "hidden strokes", as well as "the five master strokes".

It's super-mysterious, even if you speak the language and share the culture (kinda). Much more than any Kung Fu or Karate , but it obviously did work very well, as we can see from European military achievements. In fact, the lowest level is similar to an in-depth esoteric understanding of Taoist martial styles, only the Europeans used 4 elements, not 5 like the Chinese. But it doesn't stop here.

Planeten.jpg

As you can see, astrology also played a big part in those "secret techniques". By medieval standards, the solar system had 7 planets, which corresponded to 7 (Liechtenauer counts 5, even though it's 7) "words", describin combat principles: Before, after, during, strength, weakness, soft and hard.

Sounds pretty mystical, right? But there's still more like star signs, combination of planets, planets and signs and even planets and apostles (of Jesus, not of the manga Berserk). So don't go thinking a style is bullshit just because it hides its principles. And don't go thinking a style is effective because it doesn'.t

Muay Thai has evolved from real fights for this and its efficiency and greater
Modern Muay Thai is, in fact, based on French Savate. The ancient Muay Thai didn't really look like anything effective, but the modern MT looks pretty much like old Savate (except you don't wear shoes, so the kicks are a bit modified).

You can read up some old books about Siam (old name for Thailand) and if (kick-)boxing is mentioned at all (it's very rarely mentioned, so it wasn' t big at the time), the Brits make fun of it for being bullshit.
 
Books wrote about "manyfold secret arts hidden in the art of fencing" and of "hidden strokes", as well as "the five master strokes".

LET THEM BANG

Shit looks more like a religious cult than actual combat system
 
I agree with these statements. The issue can be seen in knowing what works in what situation. Typically these adaptations made to the application portion I would argue comes from experience. You learn how to adjust in a fight from experience. Either you can make the adjustment or your coach (hopefully experienced) will have an eye to tell you the adjustments to make. Example: "stop circling into the right hand" "uppercut him when he changes levels" "stop head hunting, jab to the body" etc.

Machida is often referenced, and yes he is a great example of karate. However, he is an outlier in the fact that well, he is a former UFC champion. lol. He is no stranger to full contact competition on top of his kata training. I think without the fight portion of training it can become difficult to dissect the kata portion.

You're absolutely correct, and that is pretty much exactly the type of approach that karate is supposed to take, as evidenced by quotes like these:

“Kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata to grapple with the opponent.” - Motobu Choki (Founder of Motobu Kenpo)
“Sparring does not exist apart from the kata, but for the practice of the kata.” - Funakoshi Gichin (Founder of Shotokan)
“Through sparring practice, the practical meaning of kata becomes apparent.” - Miyagi Chojun (Founder of Goju-Ryu)

There is no doubt that the wider karate community drifted away from this mentality, in one direction or another--either that kumite was important, but not connected to kata, or that kata was so important that you don't need kumite. Not all instructors took those all-or-nothing mentalities, but those are the two schools of thought which became popular, so I would say the majority of people practicing karate fall into them, although there has been a shift over the past decade to return karate to its practical roots.
 
You're absolutely correct, and that is pretty much exactly the type of approach that karate is supposed to take, as evidenced by quotes like these:

“Kumite is an actual fight using many basic styles of kata to grapple with the opponent.” - Motobu Choki (Founder of Motobu Kenpo)
“Sparring does not exist apart from the kata, but for the practice of the kata.” - Funakoshi Gichin (Founder of Shotokan)
“Through sparring practice, the practical meaning of kata becomes apparent.” - Miyagi Chojun (Founder of Goju-Ryu)

There is no doubt that the wider karate community drifted away from this mentality, in one direction or another--either that kumite was important, but not connected to kata, or that kata was so important that you don't need kumite. Not all instructors took those all-or-nothing mentalities, but those are the two schools of thought which became popular, so I would say the majority of people practicing karate fall into them, although there has been a shift over the past decade to return karate to its practical roots.

How do you think this problem could be resolved? Maybe having less associations, and a more centralized governing body?
 
How do you think this problem could be resolved? Maybe having less associations, and a more centralized governing body?

Hypothetically, a centralized governing body for karate could ensure proper practices are in place, but there is no realistic way to make that happen. People have tried, over and over again, all over the world, and never succeeded, because there are just way too many problems with trying to do something like that. Tournament circuits built up the popularity for the kumite-focused systems, and gave those styles specific criteria to train for by having rulesets to compete with, rather than simply dictating training criteria. That is something you could try, but it's hard to do something different than what is already entrenched, and the current competition formats that are popular for karate are not really all that representative of the skills and methods of old-style karate.
 
Hypothetically, a centralized governing body for karate could ensure proper practices are in place, but there is no realistic way to make that happen. People have tried, over and over again, all over the world, and never succeeded, because there are just way too many problems with trying to do something like that. Tournament circuits built up the popularity for the kumite-focused systems, and gave those styles specific criteria to train for by having rulesets to compete with, rather than simply dictating training criteria. That is something you could try, but it's hard to do something different than what is already entrenched, and the current competition formats that are popular for karate are not really all that representative of the skills and methods of old-style karate.

Hmmm....good points. Was Funakoshi in favor or against competitions, do you know?
 
Hmmm....good points. Was Funakoshi in favor or against competitions, do you know?

The elder Funakoshi was totally against competition. His kid wanted competitions and was one of the influencers in creating the competitions you see today. He was the driver for lower stances and higher kicks in Shotokan and the long range sparring style.
 
The elder Funakoshi was totally against competition. His kid wanted competitions and was one of the influencers in creating the competitions you see today. He was the driver for lower stances and higher kicks in Shotokan and the long range sparring style.

Oh ok. Thanks for the info. It seems as if they differed quite a bit in their approach, even between father and son.
 
LET THEM BANG

Shit looks more like a religious cult than actual combat system
It does. But it's actually a down to earth combat system. Well, as far as people have reconstructed it at least. The point is that mysticism doesn't make a style ineffective and lack of mysticism doesn't make a style magically effective. Combat styles are a product of their times and cultures.
 
In regards to people not using defensive techniques that look like the ones trained, it’s my experience that about 50% of what is trained comes out under stress.

For example I noticed I often use shiko dachi, nekowashi dachi, and zenkustu dachi when sparring, however the stances look sloppy and are very brief compared to when I do the same stances in kata.

Also in goju anyway each ‘block’ has a primary and a secondary movement to it, so they could very well simply be using the primary movement on its own, and most none karateka wouldn’t even notice.
 
It does. But it's actually a down to earth combat system. Well, as far as people have reconstructed it at least. The point is that mysticism doesn't make a style ineffective and lack of mysticism doesn't make a style magically effective. Combat styles are a product of their times and cultures.
I think Westerners trying to recreate a culture they don’t actually understand as 1. Bastardized the culture itself and 2. Possibly done irreparable harm to traditional (particularly Japanese) martial arts.
 
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