Karate blocks against punches/weapons

[Tayski]

Basically, humans learn violence by modelling. That's why we have kata and such. That's why prizefighting/combat sports are spectator sports. That's why in a war, a leader must sometimes lead the charge himself (at the same time the old duty of the sergeant: killing deserters). We model what we see working (deserting a seemingly losing fight makes one survive, that's why when one leaves others follow).

And that's the problem of TMAs. They model certain persons who shun CONTROLLED violence while claiming that they can survive and triumph in UNCONTROLLED violence but don't participate in it or participate by using other methods (e.g. using firearms while claiming that his H2H is the real deal). That's like saying that one is able to win F1 races but doesn't drive around the city (and has no observable record of doing so).

All these stuff about virtues in MA lies on a foundation of VIOLENCE. In basic existence, to be able to eat you have to be violent (aka kill your own food). To survive and avoid getting eaten, you have to be violent (making your predators into food). Virtues will be nothing if one gets eaten. These people with no verifiable re cord in violence spouting virtues in MA while shunning prizefighting are scammers. Why? What is a better proof of effective methods of violence (which is basically the primary point of martial arts) than previous records of these methods working in front of witnesses?

And please tell: is UNCONTROLLED violence where weapons and reinforcements can pop out of nowhere easier than CONTROLLED violence where there is an assured absence of handheld weapons, reinforcements, ground obstacles, etc. and also assures one's survival in case of surrender? Then why do these jokers shun CONTROLLED VIOLENCE? And claim they are effective in UNCONTROLLED violence?

These shitfaces are just taking people on a ride. They hide behind platitudes of martial virtues and grandiose titles in a relatively peaceful society. But when violence flares up, these shitfaces will be the first ones to fuck up, and their students will be left holding the bag. That's why it's a very good idea to test one's shit before shit happens, but these shitfaces frown on that cuz that will expose the lie they perpetuate...

You're responding to my posts like I'm saying something opposite of that, but I actually agree with everything you're saying here, so you're preaching to the choir

 

[eternaldarkness]

T

I had seen that, too. The question is the following. Karate as well as Kung Fu. They are style that were created based on and not experienced with real fights.
Such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muaythai. That's why his techniques look good in theory but in practice they do not work.

Traditional martial arts are based in reality and do work. A lot of martial arts that are being taught are just bastardised versions of their former selves, and westerners only have themselves to blame. They wanted to learn aerial ballet so that is what they were taught. Also true martial arts were toned down for pussy westerners that didn't what to do the contact or conditioning training.

 

[Tayski]

theres a huge difference between a sporting environment with strict rules and where you know the other person’s intent and a referee to make sure things don’t go too far, and out in the world where there are no rules and you don’t know the other person’s intent, and no guarantee anyone will intervene on your behalf if things start going poorly for you.

But if you put someone to sleep your just as likely to get in legal trouble as if you kill them. Either way an over zealous prosecutor will come after you.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not advocating trying to kill someone for every little bar scuffle, or if your neighbor gets mad and tries to tackle you because he’s mad about a property dispute or something, but there are situations that may require it.

There is a difference between a sporting environment and an environment with no rules, but I still trust more the techniques which are proven to work in a sport environment against a non compliant opponent who's trying to finish you off as opposed to techniques which are never put in real practice in a stressful environment.

I also have a lot more faith that a trained fighter in a sport environment who knows how to fight and finish people even though within a restrictive environment with rules will be more competent in a fight situation without rules as opposed to someone who never fights and only practices some drills on compliant training partners.

I don't think you ever need to kill someone unless you're in a war zone where both sides are trying to kill each other or you're in the police or something. I also believe that you have higher chances of survival if for instance you give the armed person what they want rather than try and disarm them and die in the process.

That's my issue with some of the "self defense" martial arts where the practitioners might feel in a false sense of security by being supposedly empowered with techniques that will disarm an attacker, only to find out that when someone does pull a knife on them those techniques don't work and they end up in the morgue.

Awareness, avoidance, dissuasion, compliance and escape are far better for survival for the common civilian than trying to disarm knives and guns. Being a soldier in a situation of war is of course a completely different story, but even there in this day and age most of the killing is done gun vs gun (or with explosives and vehicles) and not in some kind of movie scene where it's a hands vs knife fight.

 

[eternaldarkness]

So not only you clearly don't know much about the topic, but you also have reading difficulties.

If you read my comment again and try to understand what is being said, you'll see that I'm not talking about the proportion of Karate moves out of Machida's arsenal, but rather the fact that he's far from the only fighter who uses Karate techniques and footwork in MMA, as opposed to what you're saying with "that's only one man, one man doesn't prove anything".

Sometimes when you don't know about a topic it's best not to make assumptions and try to pass them as truth.

As someone with a background in 2 styles of Karate, and some training in other striking arts, I can tell when I see someone using Karate footwork and techniques. Just on the top of my head and other than Machida fighters like GSP, Gunnar Nelson, Michelle Waterson, Ryan Jimmo, Robert Whittaker, Uriah Hall, Stephen Thompson, and quite a few others use some Karate techniques and/or footwork. Hell you even see guys like Conor McGregor trying to emulate the Karate stance and bouncy in and out movement sometimes.

According to this guys logic, wrestling doesn't work because it doesn't look like proper wrestling in mma.

 

[JohnPJones]

There is a difference between a sporting environment and an environment with no rules, but I still trust more the techniques which are proven to work in a sport environment against a non compliant opponent who's trying to finish you off as opposed to techniques which are never put in real practice in a stressful environment.

I also have a lot more faith that a trained fighter in a sport environment who knows how to fight and finish people even though within a restrictive environment with rules will be more competent in a fight situation without rules as opposed to someone who never fights and only practices some drills on compliant training partners.

I don't think you ever need to kill someone unless you're in a war zone where both sides are trying to kill each other or you're in the police or something. I also believe that you have higher chances of survival if for instance you give the armed person what they want rather than try and disarm them and die in the process.

That's my issue with some of the "self defense" martial arts where the practitioners might feel in a false sense of security by being supposedly empowered with techniques that will disarm an attacker, only to find out that when someone does pull a knife on them those techniques don't work and they end up in the morgue.

Awareness, avoidance, dissuasion, compliance and escape are far better for survival for the common civilian than trying to disarm knives and guns. Being a soldier in a situation of war is of course a completely different story, but even there in this day and age most of the killing is done gun vs gun (or with explosives and vehicles) and not in some kind of movie scene where it's a hands vs knife fight.

i guess we have some fundamental differences of opinion then.
If someone is Hell bent on killing you, restraint will probably get you hurt. Police only come when called, and typically only arrive too late to help, so if there’s a reason for the cops to arrive and take a life there’s every reason for the person who called the police to take a life

 

[eneck]

Karate is a fake fight and without any efficiency

 

[Tayski]

Karate is a fake fight and without any efficiency

Oh fuck off already with your propaganda, you're the one advertising ranking in Muay Thai for fuck sake.

 

[Tayski]

i guess we have some fundamental differences of opinion then.
If someone is Hell bent on killing you, restraint will probably get you hurt. Police only come when called, and typically only arrive too late to help, so if there’s a reason for the cops to arrive and take a life there’s every reason for the person who called the police to take a life

Those situations are extremely rare, and when they do happen then having been put under the stress of an actual fight will serve you much better than some disarming technique you practiced on compliant 300 pounds billy who couldn't throw a punch if his life depended on it.

 

[Kframe]

So not only you clearly don't know much about the topic, but you also have reading difficulties.

If you read my comment again and try to understand what is being said, you'll see that I'm not talking about the proportion of Karate moves out of Machida's arsenal, but rather the fact that he's far from the only fighter who uses Karate techniques and footwork in MMA, as opposed to what you're saying with "that's only one man, one man doesn't prove anything".

Sometimes when you don't know about a topic it's best not to make assumptions and try to pass them as truth.

As someone with a background in 2 styles of Karate, and some training in other striking arts, I can tell when I see someone using Karate footwork and techniques. Just on the top of my head and other than Machida fighters like GSP, Gunnar Nelson, Michelle Waterson, Ryan Jimmo, Robert Whittaker, Uriah Hall, Stephen Thompson, and quite a few others use some Karate techniques and/or footwork. Hell you even see guys like Conor McGregor trying to emulate the Karate stance and bouncy in and out movement sometimes.

No, you said he didn't only use karate.

 

[Tayski]

No, you said he didn't only use karate.

"You obviously don't know what you're looking at if you think Machida is the only one using TMA techniques in MMA."

I wonder what's so difficult to understand in this sentence.

 

[JohnPJones]

Those situations are extremely rare, and when they do happen then having been put under the stress of an actual fight will serve you much better than some disarming technique you practiced on compliant 300 pounds billy who couldn't throw a punch if his life depended on it.

never said such situations were common, but I also feel I must clarify, when I talk about killing blows, I'm not talking about some BS dim mak death touch type thing, Im talking primarily targeting. (for example dropping a pointed elbow to the base of the skull, or possibly a throat punch) so no I'm not talking about some mystical magical technique that will simply kill someone if done with resistance.

and if they're armed and attacking me to the point I might have to attempt a disarming technique (which can very well be practiced against non-compliant partners...) 99% chance I'm armed as well, and i'll probably just shoot them...

 

[Tayski]

never said such situations were common, but I also feel I must clarify, when I talk about killing blows, I'm not talking about some BS dim mak death touch type thing, Im talking primarily targeting. (for example dropping a pointed elbow to the base of the skull, or possibly a throat punch) so no I'm not talking about some mystical magical technique that will simply kill someone if done with resistance.

Ok so let's take these target areas that you're talking about and are actually not that easy to aim for. How do you even practice them in a real non compliant scenario? And how do you make them become instinct rather than let's say throwing a punch to the face or something else that feels much more natural and can actually be practiced until it becomes a reflex?

And again, I'm more confident a MMA fighter or Boxer or whatever else who actually fights will be more capable to target those areas than the home mum who's 50 and does some Krav Maga classes when the kids are at football practice.

and if they're armed and attacking me to the point I might have to attempt a disarming technique (which can very well be practiced against non-compliant partners...) 99% chance I'm armed as well, and i'll probably just shoot them...

Exactly! If people want to really protect themselves then they should just move in groups or with a dog, avoid dodgy areas, and carry a weapon. Those disarming techniques are not as easy to pull off as some make them sound to be and if done wrong could easily get you killed. Leave that to the army and police.

 

[fighthug]

where are you getting this idea that karate has no actual roots in combat?
You realize that random people often attacked well known karateka on the streets to make a name for themselves well into the 20th century right?

https://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual/judo/judo01.html

http://www.worldjudoday.com/en/The-History-of-Judo-55.html

Every source I’ve seen puts jiu jitsu as the core foundation of judo, though admittedly if Kano wrote a book on judo I have not read it.

I can see what's on the internet anyone can write. Jigoro Kano himself said that JUDO came from JIU JITSU you get any old JUDO books written this.
Karate does not have real fighting in its origin. Do you happen to have any Gichin Funakoshi fight photographed or flipped? The answer is no. Do you believe in the legends told by your master or on the academy site the problem is yours.

 

[fighthug]

1. Correct. Look up Motobu Choki, karate's version of a young Miyamoto Musashi (rough and tumble, loves to fight thus bad rep within genteel MA circles0.
2. Wrong. BJJ is from Judo, Judo is from Kito ryu. Kito ryu (verified pre-1860 lineage) is not related to Daito ryu (contentious pre-1860 lineage) in terms of jujutsu. Rather, a branch of aikido, tomiki, stemmed from judo.

Wrong. Many styles were based on real fights. The problem is with the succeeding generations who didn't fought and yet still taught the style, not knowing the intricacies of fighting. They then had to resort to bullshit explanations to impress potential students. One can find vestiges of fighting in a style's traditional kata (aka those passed unchanged for 3 generations or more).
You can see this "not working" shit happen if BJJ were to altogether stop rolling and competing for three generations, and delete all visual records of it being used in a fight.. ​

What karate style are you talking about?
Gichin Funakoshi never made a real fight?
Masutatsu Oyama fought only a few times and always with armed struggles.
In fights against another style and only history never with record of photos or videos.
Jon Blumming himself who was a student of Masutatsu Oyama revealed several of his lies in his book and interviews.

 

[babycart]

What karate style are you talking about?
Gichin Funakoshi never made a real fight?
Masutatsu Oyama fought only a few times and always with armed struggles.
In fights against another style and only history never with record of photos or videos.
Jon Blumming himself who was a student of Masutatsu Oyama revealed several of his lies in his book and interviews.

Please give supporting evidence that Funakoshi fought and prevailed consistently.

 

[fighthug]

Please give supporting evidence that Funakoshi fought and prevailed consistently.

Show them? You only know how to write and it shows nothing!
Read the book of Jon Bluming there you will have a surprise

 

[JohnPJones]

What karate style are you talking about?
Gichin Funakoshi never made a real fight?
Masutatsu Oyama fought only a few times and always with armed struggles.
In fights against another style and only history never with record of photos or videos.
Jon Blumming himself who was a student of Masutatsu Oyama revealed several of his lies in his book and interviews.

you realize that the origins of karate pre-date Funakoshi right?
As mentioned before what documented evidence do you have of Kano ever fighting and winning, or are you just going based off of his book?

 

[JohnPJones]

Ok so let's take these target areas that you're talking about and are actually not that easy to aim for. How do you even practice them in a real non compliant scenario? And how do you make them become instinct rather than let's say throwing a punch to the face or something else that feels much more natural and can actually be practiced until it becomes a reflex?

And again, I'm more confident a MMA fighter or Boxer or whatever else who actually fights will be more capable to target those areas than the home mum who's 50 and does some Krav Maga classes when the kids are at football practice.



Exactly! If people want to really protect themselves then they should just move in groups or with a dog, avoid dodgy areas, and carry a weapon. Those disarming techniques are not as easy to pull off as some make them sound to be and if done wrong could easily get you killed. Leave that to the army and police.

lot of places you can’t legally carry a weapon, and some jurisdictions make it nearly impossible to get a permit to get a weapon, so having some knowledge of disarming techniques is better than nothing (also the disarming techniques I have learned were taught to me by the current head of our organization who was also the head of the local SWAT team, and were the same ones he taught to his officers.)

 

[fighthug]

you realize that the origins of karate pre-date Funakoshi right?
As mentioned before what documented evidence do you have of Kano ever fighting and winning, or are you just going based off of his book?

The book was written by the creator of JUDO. As I'm saying this to prove that JUDO came from JIUJITSU. And not that KANO has fought.
There is no evidence that the Creators of KARATE have engaged in actual combat.
Let's for example for fighting that evolved from actual combat as MUAYTHAI exists several photos and video proving it.

 

[JohnPJones]

The book was written by the creator of JUDO. As I'm saying this to prove that JUDO came from JIUJITSU. And not that KANO has fought.
There is no evidence that the Creators of KARATE have engaged in actual combat.
Let's for example for fighting that evolved from actual combat as MUAYTHAI exists several photos and video proving it.

proving Muay Thai was developed in combat?

Lmao, there might be photos or videos of Muay Thai in sport, but I doubt there’s any evidence of Muay Thai in combat.