Karate Myths and Misconceptions

BudoNoah

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I know that a lot of people out there have varying degrees of experience with, or exposure to, different forms of karate (or "karate," as the case may be), but I also know that there are a few of us here on Sherdog who tend to be the ones to defend the art and try to bust myths and correct misconceptions about it. This thread is partially a rant, to that effect, but also an overview of some historical information about karate, and an invitation for people to ask questions about karate, or educate people about it.

Honestly, I don't enjoy having to do things like this, because it means that karate instructors all over the world have failed their students. They have perpetuated exaggerations, myths, and outright lies in the interest of "honoring" their instructors, or making karate seem like some sort of Zen exercise or magical ancient practice. They have taught movements that they understand only from a purely mechanical sense, without any real knowledge of what those movements are for, or how to make them work for karate's intended context. They have adopted kumite (sparring) methods that are largely incompatible with the material the art is meant to teach and, as such, teach it as a completely separate skillset, rather than a training method for getting better at applying karate techniques under pressure. They have clung to the idea of "tradition" so strongly--without even realizing that most of those "ancient traditions" they hold dear are less than a Century old--that they choose to worship the ground upon which the old masters walked, instead of following their path and continuing their journey to develop karate. This is so widespread that the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo will be including karate competition, for the first time, and they chose exactly this type of karate to showcase--it is almost as if that is how people actually WANT karate to be.

These days, karate is derided as an activity only suitable for small children, and pretty much any karate dojo that doesn't teach Kyokushin (or one of its off-shoots) is immediately considered to be a McDojo, until proven otherwise. As much as it pains me to say it, karate has EARNED this terrible reputation, and since the majority of dojo seem to be meeting those expectations, I can't say it isn't a valid stereotype. What I can say, though, is that the karate that is popular, today, that bears this reputation, is not what karate used to be--what it could be, again. The sad part is that most people--even those who are actively practicing karate--have no idea what karate used to be. With that in mind, I would like to clarify a few things about karate, in the hopes that people might see that there is more to it than most realize, and maybe even help people see the value in it.

Where Does It Come From?

Karate originates from Okinawa, which is currently part of Japan, but the Okinawan people and culture are decidedly different from what you will find on mainland Japan, and they do not consider themselves "Japanese." When karate was transplanted from Okinawa to mainland Japan, it went through a lot of changes, although that process started in 1901, when Itosu Anko officially introduced karate into the physical education curriculum of public schools. This means that "Japanese karate" is taught, practiced, and used quite differently than "Okinawan karate," but even on Okinawa, a lot of Japanese methodologies have been adopted, because Japanese karate is more popular.

Chinese Influence?

People like to highlight the Chinese influence on karate, often despite the facts--the Hakutsuru (White Crane) craze in the karate world throughout the 80's and 90's, for example. There were certainly times where Chinese martial arts influenced karate, but karate was also influenced by Siamese (modern-day Thailand) martial arts, and Japanese martial arts, and likely many others. Of course, the Okinawans also had their own native fighting methods, as every culture does. In reality, there are very few styles which can claim to be heavily influenced by Chinese arts, and those are styles that fall into the "Naha-Te" classification, such as Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu, and Ryuei-Ryu.

Who Made It, and Why?

There is a popular myth that karate was developed by farmers and fisherman to fight the invading Satsuma samurai after they had their weapons taken away, so they used farming tools as weapons, and they had to practice in secret because martial arts were banned. While this would make for a very cool underdog movie, it simply isn't true. Karate was developed by nobles and royalty on Okinawa, who practiced it either for their jobs (many nobles held positions as guards, police, or military leaders), or for the enjoyment of it. The only weapons that were ever banned on Okinawa were firearms, although there were restrictions on common folk carrying weapons--as mentioned, though, they didn't develop karate, anyway. The practice of martial arts was never banned, either. The only restriction was that it wasn't to be taught publicly, mostly so that it couldn't be used to build up any sort of revolution, but it could be taught to small groups in private, which is pretty much already how they were doing it, anyway.

What Was Its Purpose?

As mentioned, many of the nobles who practiced karate held jobs that would require martial arts skills. One of the most famous masters in karate history was "Bushi" Matsumura Sokon, who was the chief bodyguard to the Okinawan King (three of them, technically). Others were police officers, or guarded castles and gardens. With this in mind, you would expect karate to primarily involve methods for quickly disabling attackers, either by rendering them unconscious, unable to function, or restrained. Karate had to be fast and functional, and many of the people responsible for developing karate over time had reputations for testing their skills, either in challenge matches or just by getting into fights. These skills carried over into personal protection, as well, given that nobility would be rich targets for assault and theft.

What Is "Traditional Karate?"

Most of the karate that people call "traditional karate," or sometimes "budo karate," is fairly new, and strongly influenced by the Japanese culture. When karate was brought to Japan, it was stripped of many of its grappling methods, like joint locks and takedowns, because the Japanese already had extensive, popular grappling arts (Judo and Sumo, for example). What the Japanese wanted from karate was a strictly regimented physical education program that was martial in nature to help prepare young people for military service. It didn't have to be functional for fighting--they would teach them proper Japanese arts for that once they joined the military, after all--so that type of material didn't have to be included in the curriculum. The belt system from Judo was borrowed in order to ensure a hierarchical structure, which would also serve participants well once they joined the military.

Once Funakoshi Gigo (son of Shotokan founder, Funakoshi Gichin) gained a position of influence in the Japanese karate community, the art was aimed even more heavily toward physical fitness/challenge, and competition. While the Okinawan people had been experimenting with full-contact bogu kumite (armored sparring), the Japanese simply took the sparring methods of one of their native arts--Kendo--and copied it for use with only the most basic karate techniques. This is how we have ended up with a karate that is long range (like Kendo, but without a sword to make up the distance), focused almost entirely on punches and kicks (the part karate did better than jujutsu), and which borrowed most of its "traditions" from native Japanese arts. Of course, as we all know, competition is how martial arts inevitably spread, and the Japanese did a much better job of developing a competition format for karate than the Okinawans did, so that is the type of karate that took off.

Does Karate Have Grappling?

Karate absolutely includes grappling methods, although most schools have dropped much of that from their curriculum over time, since it doesn't fit into the common forms of karate competition and, thus, is not popular. As mentioned, karate was largely used for law enforcement purposes, so it would make sense for it to include a good number of methods for controlling an opponent, as much as it would include methods for simply striking an opponent. For the most part, these methods are focused on standing grappling, in conjunction with striking--limb control, joint locks, takedowns, etc. There are some groundwork methods within karate, but they are mostly focused on getting back up, kicking away a standing opponent to make space, or taking down a standing opponent to put yourself on an even playing field.

Some people like to retcon more groundwork into karate than it originally had, usually by claiming a kata (Naihanchi) is meant for grappling on your back, because of the similarity of the stance and stepping to the guard position seen in grappling arts, but this retconning is unnecessary. While karate, itself, has a specific context it is intended for, and contains methods for that purpose, karate masters have long advocated cross-training. This advocacy was not limited to striking arts, but also to weapons arts and grappling arts. For example, Okinawa has a native folkstyle submission grappling style, called tegumi, or muto, which was a very popular pastime for Okinawan youth even into the early 20th Century. We have written descriptions of this practice, and it is described as including takedowns, joint locks, chokes, and pins, with the intention of making your opponent tap out. Even to this day, you can find Shima tournaments on Okinawa, which are a form of belt wrestling, focused on throwing the opponent. Many Okinawan masters trained in Sumo, or Judo, to supplement their karate training, and recommended this practice to their students. There is no need to retcon groundwork into karate, because karate practitioners have always just cross-trained in grappling arts that do it.

Why Don't We See This "Old-Style" Karate In MMA?

We do, in a way--it just isn't being done by people who practice karate. The human body can only be manipulated in so many ways, so there is a lot of crossover between martial arts, and there are plenty of fighters out there using techniques that are present in karate, even if they have never practiced karate before. So, if that's the case, why don't we see more karateka in MMA doing it? To be perfectly honest, it goes back to the lack of a good karate-centric competition format to build skilled fighters with. The karate we see in MMA, today, is the long range, striking-only type of karate, because that is what was made popular by competitions. As it stands, the best competition format to include both the striking methods and grappling methods of karate is MMA, but it is hard to get karateka to compete in MMA, to begin with, because they are taught to feel that MMA is almost the antithesis of karate and "traditional martial arts." On top of that, because of karate's reputation as a "safe" activity, most of the people who seek out karate instruction aren't really looking to fight.

What we would need, in my opinion, to start bringing the older, practical methods to the forefront, is a good competition circuit that is specifically designed and intended for "traditional" karateka to compete in, but which forces them to incorporate the limb control techniques, joint locks, chokes, and takedowns of the art in conjunction with the striking. As it stands, all we really have are long range point fighting competitions, mid-to-close range knockdown fighting where grappling is prohibited, and the occasional full-contact circuit that allows some sort of grappling here and there, but usually just ends up being sloppy point fighting or MMA in a gi, without any real focus on including techniques from old-style karate.

To the surprise of most people, karate actually used to have a method of pressure testing and fighting using those old-style methods. It's called "kakedameshi" (literally, "hooked testing," although it could more accurately be called "hooked hands testing"), and has been described as something like a "very aggressive version of Chinese push-hands," where participants strike each other, joint lock each other, choke each other, or throw each other down, all in an attempt to get the other person to submit. A key point to this is that kakedameshi is entirely done at close range, with the arms "hooked" onto each other in some fashion. It actually looks somewhat like the clinch sparring of Muay Thai, although Muay Thai generally doesn't include the joint locks, chokes, or some of the throws, that karate would. Of course, since this is a very specific range of fighting, it is incomplete, but I think it would be an excellent start.

Personally, I would love to set up a competition circuit focused on developing this type of fighting, because if it took off, we would actually get to see old-style karate practitioner improve their combative skills on a wide scale. As it stands, most people training in this type of karate only get to engage in that type of sparring within their dojo, or maybe a few like-minded people here and there, and that is just too small of a scale to really spread. Unfortunately--and this may just be my jaded outlook--I don't expect that to become terribly popular in the face of the more well-established karate competition formats, especially in the face of Olympic participation.
 
SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF MARTIAL ARTS IN MODERN CULTURE

Short reply:


Point 1 - Martial Arts is watered down and white washed for the modern age!

Point 2 - M.M.A "Sport " Combat Arts vs Traditional Martial "Killing" Arts = "JAIL"!


TL:TR reply

It really has become a difficult discussion to have especially with the view that you got to prove everything with a real fight, absurd sick individuals, who need to tread cautiously in life this is happening via Youtubes, Facebook, Forums etc

These young juvenile individuals need to be shown the inside of a JAIL before they make the biggest regret of their entire lives they won't be able to turn back time!

In an era with mobile phones, CCTV cameras social media its instant prosecution and life sentence in jail, right, thats the facts!

Its just never going to happen unless you want real jail time, but I just cant stand those that go online Youtube or other social media outlet challenging the Traditional Martial Arts and disrespecting them due to all this MMA fad craze ruining a much loved appreciation for Traditional Martial Arts!

They go on about pressure testing, but how can you pressure test the art of killing, ridiculous notions of superiority.

Its irrelevant an unruly and a high disregard for anything worth preserving and respecting at a distance.

A lesson in humility comes in many forms in life a verbal rebuke is just as good - in my opinion!

People can have a healthy appreciation for ancient battle and traditional martial arts without actually being involved in any criminal activity. Its more of personal hobby with fact finding and acknowledging with a mature mind the differences in what we are discussing here a healthy respect for the past.

Its one thing to discuss a Sport and another to discuss Ancient Battle Killing Arts, that requires maturity!

Simple fact they barely teach Killing Arts anymore anyway for many reasons, sadly.

I am one that has always appreciated and enjoyed privately as a hobby in practice, or reading a book, watching a video so on, this does not validated or make claim that now I should prove it, its not the 15 century but 2018.

We live in a better world today with Law that is a primary standard for safety in our society, instead of open street beheading and murders and death challenges.

Before I go on any further if people want to see eye opening stuff there are some real Facebook pages showing old footage of real Martial Artists going back 50 and 60's things that are no longer taught.

Look if your a modern day fighter yes MMA is the real deal for today's world and in the UFC you can make a career and get paid for It......but......who in their right mind wants a murder charge or blood on their hands in the modern world.

The ignorance and foolishness in todays society, you would not want what the past had, it was vicious and people were savage dogs breeding a culture of evil, hate deception and murder.......... go enjoy your UFC PS4 video games, thats the only entertainment available today LoL

But ancient and traditional Martial Art practices are considered "Killing Arts" it cannot be compared to modern day practice and interpretation of what was Martial Arts training even in past recent years the 50-60's.

Gosh the conditioning alone is nothing like visiting your 24/7 gym for goodness sake it was physically and mentally punishing.

The UFC and the MMA fad gives a false sense of Martial Arts because for those who train in MMA have not experienced, taught or seen the brutality and ferociousness of the raw killing arts.

It was not a sport and basically tapping out really wasn't an option to say the least!!!!

I'm just saying to people calm down research the facts and stop this Traditional Martial Art bashing and WAR of MMA vs Traditional absurd nonsense, ruining every conversation you make via the internet..............its like people can't discuss something as serious as this without it being twisted, manipulated and turned against you......... sick individuals, who do need - JAIL TIME!

I posted here as well:


A complete list of all the Traditional Martial aka "Killing" Arts can be found here for those that have a healthy respect for ancient battle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts

Modern day Martial Art is just combat "SPORTS" not even combat really due to rule sets and what not!
 
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I'm just saying to people calm down research the facts and stop this Martial Art bashing and WAR of MMA vs Traditional absurd nonsense ruining every conversation you make via the internet..............its like people can't discuss something as serious as this without it being twisted, manipulated and turned against you......... sick individuals, who do need jail time!
Dude the only person doing vs posts is you with this goofy shit about how mma fighters are no match for a 'real' martial artist, as if the mma fighter can't eye gouge and bite and break limbs when there are no rules.

This is the kind of stuff that used to be all over the internet esp with teenagers about 15 years ago but we know better now. 'Would Bruce Lee beat tank abbot?!!1?'

You can't exactly spar eye gouges and biting even if you train 'killing arts', so I'd much rather trust the guy that does 20 rounds a week with standup sparring to just stick his fingers out on a punch if he was in a fight for his life and wanted to poke an eye than the guy who does kata of all the super deadly moves.

If your 'killing art' is too deadly to be trained with live sparring, it is probably bullshit.

BUT: By all means, provide a shred of evidence for these claims you made in the thread you linked:
A MMA / UFC fighter is no match for a high ranked Martial Artist............. there are some out there they are private practitioners.


I mean one arm block would break your arm or a back hand would break a jaw, real deal stuff.
 
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Dude the only person doing vs posts is you with this goofy shit about how mma fighters are no match for a 'real' martial artist, as if the mma fighter can't eye gouge and bite and break limbs when there are no rules.

This is the kind of stuff that used to be all over the internet esp with teenagers about 15 years ago but we know better now. 'Would Bruce Lee beat tank abbot?!!1?'

You can't exactly spar eye gouges and biting even if you train 'killing arts', so I'd much rather trust the guy that does 20 rounds a week with standup sparring to just stick his fingers out on a punch if he was in a fight for his life and wanted to poke an eye than the guy who does kata of all the super deadly moves.

If your 'killing art' is too deadly to be trained with live sparring, it is probably bullshit.

BUT: By all means, provide a shred of evidence for these claims you made in the thread you linked:

Sadly, you missed the entire point of the post!

Or your are just fishing for a fight and reading only what interests your angle on the discussion not interested in either my friend just replying to the thread and chatting away.

However, I edited my post to add that sparring and pressure testing is a futile attempt to disregard something that should be respected not challenged!

A healthy appreciation for a hobby that many enjoy!

But to answer your point of conditioning.........











You goto at least respect the conditioning c'mon.

So the point I'm addressing that hardly any MMA fighter goes to this extent of conditioning that is brutal and difficult to sustain as an ongoing training regiment.

No claims of mine its the reality of their training and what it takes......but anyway as you may.
 
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SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF MARTIAL ARTS IN MODERN CULTURE

Short reply:


Point 1 - Martial Arts is watered down and white washed for the modern age!

Point 2 - M.M.A "Sport " Combat Arts vs Traditional Martial "Killing" Arts = "JAIL"!


TL:TR reply

It really has become a difficult discussion to have especially with the view that you got to prove everything with a real fight, absurd sick individuals, who need to tread cautiously in life this is happening via Youtubes, Facebook, Forums etc

These young juvenile individuals need to be shown the inside of a JAIL before they make the biggest regret of their entire lives they won't be able to turn back time!

In an era with mobile phones, CCTV cameras social media its instant prosecution and life sentence in jail, right, thats the facts!

Its just never going to happen unless you want real jail time, but I just cant stand those that go online Youtube or other social media outlet challenging the Traditional Martial Arts and disrespecting them due to all this MMA fad craze ruining a much loved appreciation for Traditional Martial Arts!

They go on about pressure testing, but how can you pressure test the art of killing, ridiculous notions of superiority.

Its irrelevant an unruly and a high disregard for anything worth preserving and respecting at a distance.

A lesson in humility comes in many forms in life a verbal rebuke is just as good - in my opinion!

People can have a healthy appreciation for ancient battle and traditional martial arts without actually being involved in any criminal activity. Its more of personal hobby with fact finding and acknowledging with a mature mind the differences in what we are discussing here a healthy respect for the past.

Its one thing to discuss a Sport and another to discuss Ancient Battle Killing Arts, that requires maturity!

Simple fact they barely teach Killing Arts anymore anyway for many reasons, sadly.

I am one that has always appreciated and enjoyed privately as a hobby in practice, or reading a book, watching a video so on, this does not validated or make claim that now I should prove it, its not the 15 century but 2018.

We live in a better world today with Law that is a primary standard for safety in our society, instead of open street beheading and murders and death challenges.

Before I go on any further if people want to see eye opening stuff there are some real Facebook pages showing old footage of real Martial Artists going back 50 and 60's things that are no long taught.

Look if your a modern day fighter yes MMA is the real deal for today's world and in the UFC you can make a career and get paid for It......but......who in their right mind wants a murder charge or blood on their hands in the modern world.

The ignorance and foolishness in todays society, you would not want what the past had, it was vicious and people were savage dogs breeding a culture of evil, hate deception and murder.......... go enjoy your UFC PS4 video games, thats the only entertainment available today LoL

But ancient and traditional Martial Art practices are considered "Killing Arts" it cannot be compared to modern day practice and interpretation of what was Martial Arts training even in past recent years the 50-60's.

Gosh the conditioning alone is nothing like visiting your 24/7 gym for goodness sake it was physically and mentally punishing.

The UFC and the MMA fad gives a false sense of Martial Arts because for those who train in MMA have not experienced, taught or seen the brutality and ferociousness of the raw killing arts.

It was not a sport and basically tapping out really wasn't an option to say the least!!!!

I'm just saying to people calm down research the facts and stop this Traditional Martial Art bashing and WAR of MMA vs Traditional absurd nonsense, ruining every conversation you make via the internet..............its like people can't discuss something as serious as this without it being twisted, manipulated and turned against you......... sick individuals, who do need - JAIL TIME!

I posted here as well:


A complete list of all the Traditional Martial aka "Killing" Arts can be found here for those that have a healthy respect for ancient battle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_martial_arts

Modern day Martial Art is just combat "SPORTS" not even combat really due to rule sets and what not!
{<huh}
According to your list 10th planet Jiu Jitsu is a killing art?
 
:)LoL you guys crack me up, forget it, put me on the ignore list, I will sit in the corner for time-out!

time-out-child.jpg


<Lmaoo>
 
I think any style that is too complicated for you to understand may not be the most effective for you.
 
So the point I'm addressing that hardly any MMA fighter goes to this extent of conditioning that is brutal and difficult to sustain as an ongoing training regiment.
Wrong guys with a Muay Thai background desensitize and harden the shins, for example.

If beating up a rock or hitting yourself is part of the discipline aspect of a TMA I'm not going to knock it.

But I see no reason to accept that every body hardening regimen is an optimal practice for fighting. Bone density can only increase so much, and giving yourself internal scaring of the soft tissues is probably not helping anything.

MMA has been a long running experiment and guys have figured out a pretty good set of training methodologies that are going to optimize fighting performance over a career of some years. If bashing forearms into a tree isn't part of it, it's probably that that's a half hour better spent sparring or doing bag work or strength training.

Then again look at El Cucuy, almost no sparring and he beats up a wooden dummy at this point in his career.
 
The purpose of this thread was not to dredge up a completely unnecessary MMA vs. TMA debate--merely to provide a source for clarification and discussion of karate and its development. That said, I suppose I should have expected an immediate de-rail, lol. Let's see if I can get this thread at least somewhat back on the tracks.

These young juvenile individuals need to be shown the inside of a JAIL before they make the biggest regret of their entire lives they won't be able to turn back time!

In an era with mobile phones, CCTV cameras social media its instant prosecution and life sentence in jail, right, thats the facts!

Its just never going to happen unless you want real jail time, but I just cant stand those that go online Youtube or other social media outlet challenging the Traditional Martial Arts and disrespecting them due to all this MMA fad craze ruining a much loved appreciation for Traditional Martial Arts!

Legal considerations are very important any time you are discussing violence outside of a sporting context. Laws vary widely, depending on where you live, but most do include considerations for self defense, and it is important to understand what those are in your area. Still, I don't see the need for fearmongering about it. It's pretty straightforward--understand the laws regarding self defense/fighting in your area, and train within that context.

They go on about pressure testing, but how can you pressure test the art of killing, ridiculous notions of superiority.

Its irrelevant an unruly and a high disregard for anything worth preserving and respecting at a distance.

I truly don't mean this to be offensive, but isn't the idea that a martial art is beyond the capability of pressure testing a "notion of superiority," itself? A punch to the face can kill someone--even a punch from an untrained person can kill someone--and yet they can be pressure tested. Strangling someone can kill them, but those are pressure tested. Throws can paralyze or kill people, but they are still pressure tested. Joint locks can handicap people, but those are still pressure tested. Yes, there are adjustments made for safety, and there are still risks, but it can be done. I have pressure tested my karate techniques, and haven't killed anyone, yet.

People can have a healthy appreciation for ancient battle and traditional martial arts without actually being involved in any criminal activity. Its more of personal hobby with fact finding and acknowledging with a mature mind the differences in what we are discussing here a healthy respect for the past.

Its one thing to discuss a Sport and another to discuss Ancient Battle Killing Arts, that requires maturity!

No one is suggesting engaging in criminal activity. The nearest I may come is pointing out that martial artists, in the past, have sought out fights in the streets to test themselves, historically. That is not to suggest anyone should be doing that, now, or that it was even ethical, then.

Before I go on any further if people want to see eye opening stuff there are some real Facebook pages showing old footage of real Martial Artists going back 50 and 60's things that are no longer taught.

Honestly, I can't think of anything being taught in the 50's and 60's that isn't still being taught, today, in karate--pretty much everything that was removed had already been taken out by then, anyway. The only real difference is that the level of contact was heavier, then, for the styles that engaged in point sparring.

But ancient and traditional Martial Art practices are considered "Killing Arts" it cannot be compared to modern day practice and interpretation of what was Martial Arts training even in past recent years the 50-60's.

Gosh the conditioning alone is nothing like visiting your 24/7 gym for goodness sake it was physically and mentally punishing.

The UFC and the MMA fad gives a false sense of Martial Arts because for those who train in MMA have not experienced, taught or seen the brutality and ferociousness of the raw killing arts.

I would agree that the more hardcore conditioning is much less common in karate, these days, than it was in the past, outside of old-school Okinawan karate dojo, or Kyokushin (and its offshoots) schools. That said, Kyokushin is decidedly a "sport karate" style, and I would argue that there are MMA gyms out there that absolutely have brutal conditioning programs. The difference, there, is that they don't really need to condition the hands, so much, because they are wearing wraps and gloves. Aside from that, though, I've seen plenty of leg, body, and even arm conditioning in MMA, and other sporting martial arts, like Muay Thai and boxing.

It was not a sport and basically tapping out really wasn't an option to say the least!!!!

In certain contexts, yes it was. If it was being used in warfare, to stop someone from killing you, etc., then tapping out generally was not an option. However, as I mentioned, a lot of karate's development came through its use by law enforcement, and the Okinawan police did not exactly have a reputation for killing everyone they arrested. Additionally, we have plenty of accounts of Okinawan masters either engaging in challenge matches, or getting into fights, where they did not kill their opponent, or where people were allowed to submit. Indeed, tapping out was literally how one wins a tegumi/muto match.
 
Why Don't We See This "Old-Style" Karate In MMA?

We do, in a way--it just isn't being done by people who practice karate. The human body can only be manipulated in so many ways, so there is a lot of crossover between martial arts, and there are plenty of fighters out there using techniques that are present in karate, even if they have never practiced karate before. So, if that's the case, why don't we see more karateka in MMA doing it? To be perfectly honest, it goes back to the lack of a good karate-centric competition format to build skilled fighters with. The karate we see in MMA, today, is the long range, striking-only type of karate, because that is what was made popular by competitions. As it stands, the best competition format to include both the striking methods and grappling methods of karate is MMA, but it is hard to get karateka to compete in MMA, to begin with, because they are taught to feel that MMA is almost the antithesis of karate and "traditional martial arts." On top of that, because of karate's reputation as a "safe" activity, most of the people who seek out karate instruction aren't really looking to fight.

What we would need, in my opinion, to start bringing the older, practical methods to the forefront,

;)..........but.............Just saying! :p
 
A punch from an untrained person can kill.. when it's a sucker punch.

Doing so to an opponent ready and willing to fight you back is way harder. The sport vs street argument often stems from the awareness levels of both parties. However, a street guy with a record of KO'ing others via first strike might not be the best guy to teach how to defend against an attack. A sport match covers both attack and defense cuz both parties are aware that they are participating in violence. That's the main reason why sparring and competitive fighting is viewed as the litmus test of martial arts effectivity.
 
It's pretty difficult i've found to exactly simulate the character of neutral/stand-up game in an MMA match, without actually, you know, just having an MMA match.

It's easy to make a point fighting criteria for striking (scoring hits), or for grappling (scoring takedowns or riding time); but making one that can score both at the same time gets a bit trickier. By what means would you even relate the value of strikes with the value of takedowns or grappling moves in general together? It almost seems like you are committing category errors to begin with.

I think the most straightforward method would be to simply, take an already existing takedown ruleset, like folkstyle or sumo, and just make all strikes fully legal on top that framework. Or likewise on the other hand, take an already existing point striking ruleset (like amateur/olympic style boxing), and just make takedowns and groundfighting legal on top of that.

One idea i've played around with myself is, rather than doing a match as a 'whole thing' where all scoring maneuvers are tallied up together at the end, you do it in terms of multiple sets, which have potentially multiple win criteria, and it is winning a set itself that gives you a 'point', and the overall winner is first to X number of sets. That way you won't have to try and 'mix' points scored by either takedowns or striking together somehow.

One example might be, say, pushing a guy out of bounds or making him touch the ground with something besides his feet is one win criteria for a set; at the same time, say, landing three scoring strikes in a row without being scored on in turn in between is also a win criteria.

In this manner, people with game plans looking to either take people down or keep it standing would both be tested to not tunnel vision and become complacent with their strategies, just like in an actual mma match (without actually having to involve the ground fighting that makes takedowns valuable in mma in the first place). Even more than that, i see it as a more possible method of selecting for people who can look to do both depending on the situation or opponent, like GSP.
 
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Good post.

I tried Karate briefly as a young kid in a mixed age class. It was ridiculous.
No kind of sparing of any type, just standing in lines shadow mimicking the instructor and katas.
Just the basic front kick and punches to the body, with the other hand held at the waste.

I quit as even then I could see this was no good for self defence. The black belts were doing this too, only with more complicated katas.

Oh and the instructor had a bigger beer belly than Nelson.
 
It's pretty difficult i've found to exactly simulate the character of neutral/stand-up game in an MMA match, without actually, you know, just having an MMA match.

It's easy to make a point fighting criteria for striking (scoring hits), or for grappling (scoring takedowns or riding time); but making one that can score both at the same time gets a bit trickier. By what means would you even relate the value of strikes with the value of takedowns or grappling moves in general together? It almost seems like you are committing category errors to begin with.

I think the most straightforward method would be to simply, take an already existing takedown ruleset, like folkstyle or sumo, and just make all strikes fully legal on top that framework. Or likewise on the other hand, take an already existing point striking ruleset (like amateur/olympic style boxing), and just make takedowns and groundfighting legal on top of that.

One idea i've played around with myself is, rather than doing a match as a 'whole thing' where all scoring maneuvers are tallied up together at the end, you do it in terms of multiple sets, which have potentially multiple win criteria, and it is winning a set itself that gives you a 'point', and the overall winner is first to X number of sets. That way you won't have to try and 'mix' points scored by either takedowns or striking together somehow.

One example might be, say, pushing a guy out of bounds or making him touch the ground with something besides his feet is one win criteria for a set; at the same time, say, landing three scoring strikes in a row without being scored on in turn in between is also a win criteria.

In this manner, people with game plans looking to either take people down or keep it standing would both be tested to not tunnel vision and become complacent with their strategies, just like in an actual mma match (without actually having to involve the ground fighting that makes takedowns valuable in mma in the first place). Even more than that, i see it as a more possible method of selecting for people who can look to do both depending on the situation or opponent, like GSP.

Figuring out a scoring system is definitely the biggest hurdle for putting together a competition format for old-style karate methods. It's easy to engage in sparring that's appropriate for it, because nobody is trying to win or keeping track of points, but as soon as you try to figure out victory criteria, it becomes a serious challenge.

My initial thought was to go the knockdown route, essentially, with the striking being full contact and one of the ways to win being knocking down your opponent with strikes, but add in the factor of requiring competitors to maintain at least one point of contact with their opponent, and allowing victory by successful throws or submissions, as well. The trouble with that is, of course, getting people to participate in full contact fighting, of any kind. Here in Arizona, there is no full contact karate competition circuit, which would be the easiest existing format to partner with--it's all point karate, with the occasional event that includes some sort of semi-contact continuous sparring, which is about as close as I could find.

Trying to find an option that doesn't have heavy striking contact is going to end up much more like a tui-shou competition, with the addition of joint locks, chokes, and possibly some additional takedowns. There would still need to be strikes, of course, but I can't think of a way to incentivize them without heavy contact, because the range is too close to really keep track of who is landing. Maybe just requiring strikes and penalizing for "lack of activity" if they aren't used? Kind of a lame option, but it would accomplish the goal.
 
Good post.

I tried Karate briefly as a young kid in a mixed age class. It was ridiculous.
No kind of sparing of any type, just standing in lines shadow mimicking the instructor and katas.
Just the basic front kick and punches to the body, with the other hand held at the waste.

I quit as even then I could see this was no good for self defence. The black belts were doing this too, only with more complicated katas.

Oh and the instructor had a bigger beer belly than Nelson.

I think most peoples' exposure to karate was through youth programs, which tend to be even more watered down than the watered down adult programs that we see far too frequently--remember that the "adult" curriculum that is popular was developed primarily for elementary through high school age students, to begin with, so watering it down even more is just silly.

As for the belly, I'm not necessarily that concerned about an instructor being out of shape, provided they have the knowledge and experience to be able to teach effectively, and still train enough to keep up their skills. Some people can't train at the intensity they used to, for health reasons, but still train. Some have other medical reasons for gaining weight, whether it is medications they take, or diseases they live with. Some, of course, just like food enough that, even if they are training consistently, they gain weight. None of those things necessarily means that they are unqualified to teach martial skills.
 
I have a technical question about traditional Karate. Are there a lot of hot Asian chics that study karate?
 
I have a technical question about traditional Karate. Are there a lot of hot Asian chics that study karate?

No. You'll find those in crossfit, boxfit, bodycombat and to an extent in the beginner Thai boxing classes.
 
{<huh}
According to your list 10th planet Jiu Jitsu is a killing art?

Only playing devil's advocate here but there's quite a few neck cranks and chokes that would kill people if the applier wanted them to. No comment on what that guy is saying however.
 
Only playing devil's advocate here but there's quite a few neck cranks and chokes that would kill people if the applier wanted them to. No comment on what that guy is saying however.
Not detracting from 10th planets effectiveness, but from the whole ancient deadly killing art discussion that predates sports, while 10th planet wouldn’t exist without the sporting aspect.
 
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