Keenan talks about Saulo guard pass being wrong

Yeah I can totally understand putting a low priority on the knee in the butt guard break in a curriculum. I even understand leaving it out entirely.

What I don't understand is calling it completely wrong and saying it should never be taught anywhere. That seems excessive.

Marcelo famously dislikes the kimura. Does that mean no more kimuras for anyone? I mean Marcelo would know better than just about anyone else what works at the highest level right?

We also seem to apply the empiricism argument much more harshly to moves perceived as being old school. The berimbolo is less popular these days, but only a few years ago it was all the rage.

If we really look at it, the only guys having massive success with it at the highest level were small guys featherweight and below. It could even be argued that it was only two sets of brothers really dominating with it.

Because of this, some people didn't want to focus on the berimbolo much and didn't teach it. That was fine. But I don't remember anyone saying the berimbolo was an utter crap technique at the highest level because it only worked if you had a brother ~140 lbs or so to drill it with.
This is a good take. I never really thought about it like that before, but I am definitely a little bit harsher on old school techniques than new ones. You pointed out a bias that I didn't know I had.

Also re: the two sets of brothers...I would even say that Gui didn't do very many berimbolos. or at least not all the way to the back. he seemed to sort of drop people down and come up into leg drags or knee slides. So really you're looking at 3 legit berimbolo killers at the highest level.
 
I think it's natural to assume that newer stuff is better than older stuff. It's not always quite that simple though.

A conversation like this reminds me of how people used to think about the cross collar choke. I remember people wondering why that was universally taught to white belts. It's a very subtle move that beginners have trouble grasping. And although it was known to work against lesser opponents, it was almost never seen at high level black belt competition.

Roger's cross collar choke domination at the Worlds changed all of this. Suddenly it became obvious we were missing some stuff about this old school move. Now cross collar choke is cool again.
 
Kudo's to all who participated in this thread. Best one we've had in awhile.

This thread did make me re-think what I have in my basic kids curriculum. I've always taught the kids the knee in the butt as the first guard pass. I may switch to using this one earlier- but splitting the stance when you pop up. Kids have a hard time with the nuance of how to put the knees in the butt / hamstring to prevent the double ankle sweep.

For my more advanced kids, I teach the 2 on 1 standing "thriller" grip break. It's my #1. Just a bit technical for 5 and 6 year olds though.

Thanks to Gerbil as well, I've used this effectively since the first time I saw this video almost 7 years ago.

 
I don't know about you guys but it is hard for me to stand up in a brown/black belts guard especially if he is larger than me. Heavyweights, it's impossible. My best bet is to avoid closed guard all together.
 
Kudo's to all who participated in this thread. Best one we've had in awhile.

This thread did make me re-think what I have in my basic kids curriculum. I've always taught the kids the knee in the butt as the first guard pass. I may switch to using this one earlier- but splitting the stance when you pop up. Kids have a hard time with the nuance of how to put the knees in the butt / hamstring to prevent the double ankle sweep.

For my more advanced kids, I teach the 2 on 1 standing "thriller" grip break. It's my #1. Just a bit technical for 5 and 6 year olds though.

Thanks to Gerbil as well, I've used this effectively since the first time I saw this video almost 7 years ago.




With kids, i always taught them to stand right away. Like, even before i taught any particular guard breaks. If you did positional sparring where the goal was just stand up and step back, they basically would just figure out some breaks on their own. It's way easier than cueing kids to do the cat back and create the angle that will split the legs with the knee pass.
 
So what's the opinion of this guard pass by Roy Harris. I use it here and there on lower belts and have caught some higher belts off guard.

but I've also been triangled

anyhow, just throwing it out there.
It the elbow control thing took me awhile to figure out.


 
I think it's natural to assume that newer stuff is better than older stuff. It's not always quite that simple though.

A conversation like this reminds me of how people used to think about the cross collar choke. I remember people wondering why that was universally taught to white belts. It's a very subtle move that beginners have trouble grasping. And although it was known to work against lesser opponents, it was almost never seen at high level black belt competition.

Roger's cross collar choke domination at the Worlds changed all of this. Suddenly it became obvious we were missing some stuff about this old school move. Now cross collar choke is cool again.

To be fair though, the way Roger teaches it is nothing like the way it's taught in most schools. I can think of at least 4 things he showed that I hadn't seen anyone show before, and those details are what make it work for me. Maybe we just need someone to figure out the little details that make knee closed guard passing work and then we'll all start doing it again.
 
To me, Davi isn't a reason to teach lesser known or lesser percentage moves. To go back to your science analogy, Davi is experimenting. In science, good experiments advance the field, but most experiments are time consuming and don't work. So bjj does need experimenters. But your average white and blue belts shouldn't be the experimental subjects. To the extent they are, it should be at the individual choice level, not subjecting an entire class to the experiment.


I say this as somebody who has trained maybe nine years. I've been to a lot of classes under different people who are one step away from being a Gracie BB. I've been in classes taught by a world famous BB UFC fighter.

And they've taught a lot of crap moves despite their lineage. Just look at that Russian two on one video with Akins recently posted here. That move where you lean on the back of his shoulder to break their posture is junk, as Holt told us. Who you going to believe, Akins or the guy who has wrestled at world level? Akins uke in tat video is John Frankl, father of bjj in South Korea! So two legit guys teaching this move that doesn't work.

My problem with all of that is this. You learn reactions that you have to unlearn, moves that you so using as you progress. One of the reasons why people quit is tat it takes so long to get good. And one reason it takes so long to get good is that class isn't used efficiently especially beginner to intermediate class.

If I were a white belt, there's a lot of want to know before knee in middle break of closed guard.- the standing break, what to do if they grip your sleeves vs collar, counters to 2 on 1, counter to collar grip, counters to underhook of legs, counter to ankle sweep, counters to grip breaks and how to maintain good posture.

But somehow,I'd always get fed this knee in middle break instead. So frustrating.


do you have a link to that two on one vid with akins and frankl?
 
To be fair though, the way Roger teaches it is nothing like the way it's taught in most schools. I can think of at least 4 things he showed that I hadn't seen anyone show before, and those details are what make it work for me. Maybe we just need someone to figure out the little details that make knee closed guard passing work and then we'll all start doing it again.

A lot of times just giving the move a fair shot lets you discover those details on your own I've found.

Roger definitely inspired me to start working my cross collar choke more. But I never really broke down his videos or studied his particular method. I'm not really sure I could even show the Roger version if I had to. I only really know the way I use it now.

I just started with what I had been taught, started drilling it, committed to using it in rolls, etc. Over time I made slight adjustments and found what worked for me.

Now it's one of my best subs. I just hit it from the mount in my last competition actually.

If Roger hadn't opened my mind to the possibility, I doubt I'd have put in the work to discover the details that made it work for me.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that Roger probably did the same thing to come up with his own way. That is probably why his details on it are unique. Instead of being taught exactly that way, he probably just believed in the potential of the move and developed his own method via trial and error over the years.
 
I'm a massive Keenan fan, but he's off base here. there's a reason that rickson, the machado's, the Ribeiro's and most schools teach that pass. is because it works. Keenan's point that it doesn't work in competition against the best black belts in the world is irrelevant and his point doesn't apply to 99% of us (who aren't high level black belt competitors). maybe it doesn't "work" in black belt competition at the highest level. but as a brown belt, I've used it since I've been a white belt and I still use it. because it works.
 
Kennan is responding to user comments on this over at Reddit FYI
 
maybe it doesn't "work" in black belt competition at the highest level. but as a brown belt, I've used it since I've been a white belt and I still use it. because it works.

Dunno, black belts have been unable to open my guard with this since (with an exception of a guy so fat I couldn't lock my ankles properly but it still took like a minute of applying the pressure) I watched Braulio show how to move your ass out of the way. As a brown belt I'm certain it's utter shit.
 
So what's the opinion of this guard pass by Roy Harris. I use it here and there on lower belts and have caught some higher belts off guard.

but I've also been triangled

anyhow, just throwing it out there.
It the elbow control thing took me awhile to figure out.





It is a cool video.

But my question is why sat on your knees and take the risk to get submitted.

You could just stand up to break the closed guard.

2 benefits are

Stay away from subs

Once standing, let gravity works for you. His legs will get tired.

It is the philosophy of jiu jitsu... Effective but also more efficient in my opinion.

Why stay in the pocket and get the risk to get submitted?
 
It is a cool video.

But my question is why sat on your knees and take the risk to get submitted.

You could just stand up to break the closed guard.

2 benefits are

Stay away from subs

Once standing, let gravity works for you. His legs will get tired.

It is the philosophy of jiu jitsu... Effective but also more efficient in my opinion.

Why stay in the pocket and get the risk to get submitted?
I used both standing and only that knees down pass - I used to use the Tozi but could never get the hand of it.
 
Must be nice to know more than the Machado’s and Ribeiro’s who I know (first hand) that use and teach it.
I thought the same thing as well... hell.. Saulo has been a black belch longer than Keenan has been training.
 
I'm a massive Keenan fan, but he's off base here. there's a reason that rickson, the machado's, the Ribeiro's and most schools teach that pass. is because it works. Keenan's point that it doesn't work in competition against the best black belts in the world is irrelevant and his point doesn't apply to 99% of us (who aren't high level black belt competitors). maybe it doesn't "work" in black belt competition at the highest level. but as a brown belt, I've used it since I've been a white belt and I still use it. because it works.

devil's advocate, but perhaps they used those kneeling passes because the meta game of jiu-jitsu was different back then (get on top, stay on top, gradually advance your position). those guy's didn't seem to do many full-on standing guard passes generally, and open guards tended to be much tighter than the modern angular open guards.
 
Must be nice to know more than the Machado’s and Ribeiro’s who I know (first hand) that use and teach it.
For what it's worth just because he's a brown belt and those guys are vastly more experienced doesn't automatically make them right. We've seen brown belts and even pruple belts make game changing innovations to the art.

I mean obviously I would always respect and take very seriously the opinions of any Machado or Ribeiro. They're legends in the art. And they may very well be right.

But I don't think we should fall into the logical fallacy of just taking someone's word for it because they're very good or experienced. I think there are a lot of practices and positions in the art that could be optimized, but we do them without question because "that's the way it's been done."
 
For what it's worth just because he's a brown belt and those guys are vastly more experienced doesn't automatically make them right. We've seen brown belts and even pruple belts make game changing innovations to the art.

I mean obviously I would always respect and take very seriously the opinions of any Machado or Ribeiro. They're legends in the art. And they may very well be right.

But I don't think we should fall into the logical fallacy of just taking someone's word for it because they're very good or experienced. I think there are a lot of practices and positions in the art that could be optimized, but we do them without question because "that's the way it's been done."


I'm more focused on the facts and first hand evidence, rather than belt color. the pass works. I'm also a brown belt and I've been using it for years and I've seen it used and taught hundreds of times. by high level dudes (Saul, xande, Rigan and jean Jacques, bob bass, Chris haueter to name a few).. if I've seen it work zero times, I think there'd be more of an argument.

it was later revealed that Keenan's point when he said that pass "doesn't work" is that he feels that pass doesn't work against the highest level practitioners in competition. and maybe he's right. I'm not near that level and it seems that various standing passes are the popular and effective passes at that level. I think Keenan just off base when he flat out said "this pass does not work" etc. he went on to say that he'd armbar, break down or sweep the guy on top every time. he probably could. he's one of the best in the world. but 99% of the people can't do what he does.
 
The explanation could be simply different experiences based on body type. It's not a stretch to say that this pass favors stockier people, whereas lanky people have both smaller hips to wedge and longer limbs that leverage against them.
 
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