Kendo: the shift in Karate mentality

Abernethys stuff is excellent. Especially the early stuff. Lately he tends to get a bit... over refined.



I can see that, gotta keep the views up and attract ppl in with "the spinning crane kick" lol

i thought some of his stuff was a little flashy nonsense and that his kick and punching combo on the pads was ugly but theres also alot of good stuff in there too.
 
@Hotora86

I personally liked one system they had in bjj... If you win easily against the other guys with the same belt at the tournaments, then is time for you to get the next one. I know that system has flaws too.
Personally I'm against grades, belts etc... But if i had too, i think I would have only three colors (probably white, red, black)...

-White is any type of beginner.
-Red is someone taking part in tournaments, can use the techniques in them, and is able to win against other reds. (no under 16/18 at least)
-And black would be someone experienced and good enough to teach...

But I haven't really put much thoughts in it, so it probably has huge flaws too.


@shincheckin

Early teens, I lived in a ghetto in France. There, MT was a huge deal... So I learned to respect it from early on, even if I started it a lot latter. I don't even remember anyone training in KB actually... It was all about Boxing, MT, and savate. Savate was strange, because it was not very respected as an art, but the guys training it were, since a lot of theme came from the ghetto too...
Then, in the other side, you had Judo (huge), TKD, and Karate. No wrestling, no bjj. I'm talking about 90's.
MMA was not really a thing, we would hear about some cage fighting, but it was for some crazy Russians, completely underground stuff, alongside with dog fighting. (at least that's what we thought).
 
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@Hotora86

I personally liked one system they had in bjj... If you win easily against the other guys with the same belt at the tournaments, then is time for you to get the next one. I know that system has flaws too.
Personally I'm against grades, belts etc... But if i had too, i think I would have only three colors (probably white, red, black)...

-White is any type of beginner.
-Red is someone taking part in tournaments, can use the techniques in them, and is able to win against other reds. (no under 16/18 at least)
-And black would be someone experienced and good enough to teach...

But I haven't really put much thoughts in it, so it probably has huge flaws too.


@shincheckin

Early teens, I lived in a ghetto in France. There, MT was a huge deal... So I learned to respect it from early on, even if I started it a lot latter. I don't even remember anyone training in KB actually... It was all about Boxing, MT, and savate. Savate was strange, because it was not very respected as an art, but the guys training it where, since a lot of theme came from the ghetto too...
Then, in the other side, you had Judo (huge), TKD, and Karate. No wrestling, no bjj. I'm talking about 90's.
MMA was not really a thing, we would hear about some cage fighting, but it was for some crazy Russians, completely underground stuff, alongside with dog fighting. (at least that's what we thought).

lol

 


Doesn't really need translation... If you watch till the end, you'll understand. The episode is from '98, and every guy from the ghetto knew a guy like that (or was... may have been one myself too).
 
It's true that Ikken Hissatsu - is taken from Japanese swordsmanship.

I think nowadays in Karate - it's doesn't really hold the same meaning that it does in Kenjutsu - at least anymore.

I'm sure all the karateka in here know that 'ikken hissatsu' generally nowadays refers to the spirit in which we should all strive for in training. It's more of an ideal we all aim for - the ideal being 100% effort. I think Karate has adapted the 'ikken hissatsu' philosophy of kenjutsu to it's own needs - from 'killing with a single blow' to '100% effort.'

Yes it has produced a whole bunch of bunny-hopping & touch points but it has also influenced many other competition formats like kyokushin, JKA (which is not really bunny hopping) etc. Mas Oyama himself was very heavily influenced by the 'ichigeki hissatsu' philosophy and kenjutsu/samurai of the past. It's partially how he developed the art and how full contact karate was developed. There's endless footage of him describing the ideal of his karate was to literally be so strong that you can fulfill that ideal (after all he idolized Miyamoto Musashi) & it's no coincidence the IKO1 branded itself ichigeki - after this.

There's good & bad that came with that change. But I think a lot of the bad has started to filter it's way out - with the advent of MMA, Muay Thai & kickboxing - Karateka have been able to better understand their own art. We can all see it with the way there is a movement to bring back the old grappling elements of Karate & address the issues with the art. It's still a small cult like following at the moment, but it's getting momentum. The internet is what helped birth the movement & what is helping to spread it too but ultimately it was MMA that helped readdress the imbalances of Karate - in a way that's moving Karate to something more like what it use to be (which I'm all for).
 
It's true that Ikken Hissatsu - is taken from Japanese swordsmanship.

I think nowadays in Karate - it's doesn't really hold the same meaning that it does in Kenjutsu - at least anymore.

I'm sure all the karateka in here know that 'ikken hissatsu' generally nowadays refers to the spirit in which we should all strive for in training. It's more of an ideal we all aim for - the ideal being 100% effort. I think Karate has adapted the 'ikken hissatsu' philosophy of kenjutsu to it's own needs - from 'killing with a single blow' to '100% effort.'

Yes it has produced a whole bunch of bunny-hopping & touch points but it has also influenced many other competition formats like kyokushin, JKA (which is not really bunny hopping) etc. Mas Oyama himself was very heavily influenced by the 'ichigeki hissatsu' philosophy and kenjutsu/samurai of the past. It's partially how he developed the art and how full contact karate was developed. There's endless footage of him describing the ideal of his karate was to literally be so strong that you can fulfill that ideal (after all he idolized Miyamoto Musashi) & it's no coincidence the IKO1 branded itself ichigeki - after this.

There's good & bad that came with that change. But I think a lot of the bad has started to filter it's way out - with the advent of MMA, Muay Thai & kickboxing - Karateka have been able to better understand their own art. We can all see it with the way there is a movement to bring back the old grappling elements of Karate & address the issues with the art. It's still a small cult like following at the moment, but it's getting momentum. The internet is what helped birth the movement & what is helping to spread it too but ultimately it was MMA that helped readdress the imbalances of Karate - in a way that's moving Karate to something more like what it use to be (which I'm all for).
So Ikken Hissatsu means "let me osu bro"?
 
As far as the Kendo connection with Karate - it's a lot closer to home than you're lead to believe in that article. Anyone interested should read "Karate Do - My Way Of Life" - written by Gichin Funakoshi.

The Ikken Hissatsu philosophy found it's way into Karate because of Funakoshi. Funakoshi was the primary driving force for the growth of Karate in mainland Japan. It's also why the largest & most popular karate style in mainland Japan is shotokan and all it's offshoots. The clue to the Kendo & Funakoshi connection is also in the name of shotokan - shoto was Funakoshi's nickname/pen-name.

Gichin Funakoshi had two instructors; Anko Itosu & Anko Asato - as some of you probably know.

Anko Itosu only ever studied Karate - he had no experience in any weapon art. His ten precepts of Karate - highlight what Karate is & was before the Kendo influence. Anyone that really truly wants to understand what Karate is - should read those 10 precepts. It highlights or embodies in words - what Karate is. There is a lot of wisdom in those 10 points. Itosu also happened to teach nearly every influential karate master at various points - he had a lot of notable students.

Anko Asato (Funakoshi's other instructor) - studied Jigen ryu (kendo), Kyudo (archery) & Karate. His teaching of Karate was very influenced by his cross-training in archery & swordsmanship (from what I read in Funakoshi's autobiography). He only ever had one notable student - Gichin Funakoshi.

Funakoshi himself states in his book that he was most influenced by Anko Asato's Karate. This is where most likely the kendo aspects came from in shotokan & point styles.

The style of Karate on mainland Japan that developed was very different to the style of Karate in Okinawa. It's also no coincidence that Anko Asato only ever taught Funakoshi - he had no other students this is why the styles differ so much imo. I'd go as far as to say that the shotokan practiced today stems from Asato's Karate through Funakoshi.

This also explains why Okinawan Karate & Japanese Karate diverged. The only early notable Karate master who knew swordsmanship was Asato - none of his contemporaries on Okinawa studied Jigen Ryu (apart from one other - but he had no students). Why? Asato was part of the peichin/gentry/warrior class and originally was part of Ryukyu royal bodyguard (he was a bodyguard/diplomant to the monarchy) - in an era where carrying weapons was banned unless of course if you served in a Royal capacity. It also explains why Funakoshi's Karate had kendo influences and why everyone else's Karate on Okinawa didn't.

Ask yourself - if an old Funakoshi (when he started to spread Karate) didn't know Kenjutsu - how did he pick it up at the age? Go to a local kenjutsu school while spreading Karate? By all accounts he had no time. It's very logical to assume that he probably had Kendo elements in his Karate before going to mainland Japan.
 
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As far as the Kendo connection with Karate - it's a lot closer to home than you're lead to believe in that article. Anyone interested should read "Karate Do - My Way Of Life" - written by Gichin Funakoshi.

The Ikken Hissatsu philosophy found it's way into Karate because of Funakoshi. Funakoshi was the primary driving force for the growth of Karate in mainland Japan. It's also why the largest & most popular karate style in mainland Japan is shotokan and all it's offshoots. The clue to the Kendo & Funakoshi connection is also in the name of shotokan - shoto was Funakoshi's nickname/pen-name.

Gichin Funakoshi had two instructors; Anko Itosu & Anko Asato - as some of you probably know.

Anko Itosu only ever studied Karate - he had no experience in any weapon art. His ten precepts of Karate - highlight what Karate is & was before the Kendo influence. Anyone that really truly wants to understand what Karate is - should read those 10 precepts. It highlights or embodies in words - what Karate is. There is a lot of wisdom in those 10 points. Itosu also happened to teach nearly every influential karate master at various points - he had a lot of notable students.

Anko Asato (Funakoshi's other instructor) - studied Jigen ryu (kendo), Kyudo (archery) & Karate. His teaching of Karate was very influenced by his cross-training in archery & swordsmanship (from what I read in Funakoshi's autobiography). He only ever had one notable student - Gichin Funakoshi.

Funakoshi himself states in his book that he was most influenced by Anko Asato's Karate. This is where most likely the kendo aspects came from in shotokan & point styles.

The style of Karate on mainland Japan that developed was very different to the style of Karate in Okinawa. It's also no coincidence that Anko Asato only ever taught Funakoshi - he had no other students this is why the styles differ so much imo. I'd go as far as to say that the shotokan practiced today stems from Asato's Karate through Funakoshi.

This also explains why Okinawan Karate & Japanese Karate diverged. The only early notable Karate master who knew swordsmanship was Asato - none of his contemporaries on Okinawa studied Jigen Ryu (apart from one other - but he had no students). Why? Asato was part of the peichin/gentry/warrior class and originally was part of Ryukyu royal bodyguard (he was a bodyguard/diplomant to the monarchy) - in an era where carrying weapons was banned unless of course if you served in a Royal capacity. It also explains why Funakoshi's Karate had kendo influences and why everyone else's Karate on Okinawa didn't.

Ask yourself - if an old Funakoshi (when he started to spread Karate) didn't know Kenjutsu - how did he pick it up at the age? Go to a local kenjutsu school while spreading Karate? By all accounts he had no time. It's very logical to assume that he probably had Kendo elements in his Karate before going to mainland Japan.

As I understand it, a few background principles aside, kendo´s primary influence was in karate tournament rules. Karate did not have any competition rules when it was introduced into mainland Japan. But the student there liked to compete. So, they took what they knew -kendo rules -and modified them.
And there is no question that the tournament rules shaped karate into what it is.
 
As I understand it, a few background principles aside, kendo´s primary influence was in karate tournament rules. Karate did not have any competition rules when it was introduced into mainland Japan. But the student there liked to compete. So, they took what they knew -kendo rules -and modified them.
And there is no question that the tournament rules shaped karate into what it is.
I can't find any source right now but I remember reading somewhere that the first *free* sparring sessions in Karate were done in Kendo gear - to be able to go full force but not KO / injure each other. That's where Bogu kumite probably comes from BTW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikichi_Odo#Bogu_Kumite
Bogu gear is made of pieces analogous to those of kendo bogu.

Now found a discussion on bullshido forums on the same, will have to dive into that thread when I have a minute:
https://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125033
 
Bingo!
http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=6533

The first recorded "bogu kumite" tournament is from 1927 at the Tokyo Imperial University:

"In 1927 the Karate Kenkyūkai 唐手研究会 of Tōkyō Imperial University independently devised Bōgu-tsuki Karate and performed karate matches with it. This was spearheaded by Bō Hideo 坊秀男 (1904–1990), later president of the Wadōkai and Japanese Minister of Finance. Funakoshi, the shihan at the time, was enraged about this move."

(not surprisingly) :D
 
Ha... And you wonder why we think of you guys as a bunch of nerds...
You probably spend as much time training, as learning about dates, places, people, Japanese terminologies... When the only thing to know is: Elbow goes into face.
 
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Ha... And you wonder why we think of you guys as a bunch of nerds...
You probably spend as much time training, as learning about dates, places, people, Japanese terminologies... When the only thing to know is: Elbow goes into face.

If anything it's a good representation of how the average karateka tends to be slightly more educated than the average boxer ;)

yes I did go there!
 
As I understand it, a few background principles aside, kendo´s primary influence was in karate tournament rules. Karate did not have any competition rules when it was introduced into mainland Japan. But the student there liked to compete. So, they took what they knew -kendo rules -and modified them.
And there is no question that the tournament rules shaped karate into what it is.

Yes that's also where Kendo influenced Karate competition rules. But if you read Gichin Funakoshi's autobiography - you'll see that the Kendo influence was already in place well before the competition rulesets came into play. Funakoshi was already fleshing out ideas of 'ikken hissatsu' in his book. Nearly everyone of the stories & even his own remarks makes reference to it - like for example his stories about Anko Asato taking someone out with one hit or someone he knew from his childhood.

I definitely agree that Kendo competition rules played their part in shaping Karate (from students) but a lot of the philosophy was already present in the Karate of Funakoshi. I mean ask yourself why did students specifically choose Kendo and not any other competition ruleset - to mold karate competition around? It's because they shared much more similarities with one another compared to other rulesets available - because of not just a few background principles - but many similar background principles between the Karate of Funakoshi & Kendo. Background principles that weren't shared with Okinawan Karate styles.

You have to ask yourself - why did Karate on Okinawa & Kendo not go through the same transition as well? Kobudo existed as part of the fabric of Okinawan Karate - but there was no movement towards kendo like competition (even when Kendo spread into the Okinawan school system). Even today despite the popularity of point competition - Okinawan styles look very different from their mainland Japanese counterparts.

The bogu kumite of Mabuni Kenwa - looked nothing like Kendo/point fighting competition apart from the equipment:

e74ae0725ccb9eb019690891f4632721--karate-martial-arts.jpg



Funakoshi mentions in his book that most Okinawan Karateka tested themselves in Tegumi (Okinawan wrestling) which is vastly different to what was going on in mainland japan. In fact during the kendo like point competitions in mainland Japan - in Okinawa Bogu kumite was the more popular ruleset.

I feel like that is something to consider. Asato's kenjutsu principles and their influence on Funakoshi - I feel is very overlooked especially given that what actually played out - seems to imply that Asato's influence on Shotokan is understated.
 
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I can't find any source right now but I remember reading somewhere that the first *free* sparring sessions in Karate were done in Kendo gear - to be able to go full force but not KO / injure each other. That's where Bogu kumite probably comes from BTW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikichi_Odo#Bogu_Kumite


Now found a discussion on bullshido forums on the same, will have to dive into that thread when I have a minute:
https://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125033

I wonder if Bogu Kumite was the origin of the shinguard. I don't think the shinguard existed in MT at that time. Maybe it did - I'd like to know.
 
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Bingo!
http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=6533

The first recorded "bogu kumite" tournament is from 1927 at the Tokyo Imperial University:

"In 1927 the Karate Kenkyūkai 唐手研究会 of Tōkyō Imperial University independently devised Bōgu-tsuki Karate and performed karate matches with it. This was spearheaded by Bō Hideo 坊秀男 (1904–1990), later president of the Wadōkai and Japanese Minister of Finance. Funakoshi, the shihan at the time, was enraged about this move."

(not surprisingly) :D

"It must be emphasized that sparring does not exist apart from the kata but for the practice of kata, so naturally there should be no corrupting influence on one's kata from sparring practice. When one becomes enthusiastic about sparring, there is a tendency for his kata to become bad., Karate, to the very end, should be practiced with kata as the principal method and sparring as a supporting method." - Funakoshi.

Funakoshi's rage imho was well placed. There's a lot of wisdom in that quote I just came across. Funakoshi seems well aware that your perception of the application of Kata is influenced by the sparring ruleset you went by - which was corrupting because you get multiple varying applications based on what works in each ruleset - the actual point of kata - self defence gets muddied in the process. He's advocating that Kata should inform your kumite - not that kumite should mold your kata.

He's describing the issue Karate has right now. Lots of different bunkai applications for the same kata depending on style/ruleset. This is probably why he was against competition when it was being introduced because it probably came at the cost of kata. You have to say he was right though - most people have no idea about the forms they learn including me. It's because kumite became the principle method - great for competition - and kata took the back seat. To the degree that hardly anyone really knows what's going in a large portion of kata.
 
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I wonder if Bogu Kumite was the origin of the shinguard. I don't think the shinguard existed in MT at that time. Maybe it did - I'd like to know.

what karate styles fight without shin pads? kyokushin? sometimes i see pads underneath the pants
 
If anything it's a good representation of how the average karateka tends to be slightly more educated than the average boxer ;)

yes I did go there!
BURN

tenor.gif
 
Yes that's also where Kendo influenced Karate competition rules. But if you read Gichin Funakoshi's autobiography - you'll see that the Kendo influence was already in place well before the competition rulesets came into play. Funakoshi was already fleshing out ideas of 'ikken hissatsu' in his book. Nearly everyone of the stories & even his own remarks makes reference to it - like for example his stories about Anko Asato taking someone out with one hit or someone he knew from his childhood.

I definitely agree that Kendo competition rules played their part in shaping Karate (from students) but a lot of the philosophy was already present in the Karate of Funakoshi. I mean ask yourself why did students specifically choose Kendo and not any other competition ruleset - to mold karate competition around? It's because they shared much more similarities with one another compared to other rulesets available - because of not just a few background principles - but many similar background principles between the Karate of Funakoshi & Kendo. Background principles that weren't shared with Okinawan Karate styles.

You have to ask yourself - why did Karate on Okinawa & Kendo not go through the same transition as well? Kobudo existed as part of the fabric of Okinawan Karate - but there was no movement towards kendo like competition (even when Kendo spread into the Okinawan school system). Even today despite the popularity of point competition - Okinawan styles look very different from their mainland Japanese counterparts.

The bogu kumite of Mabuni Kenwa - looked nothing like Kendo/point fighting competition apart from the equipment:

e74ae0725ccb9eb019690891f4632721--karate-martial-arts.jpg



Funakoshi mentions in his book that most Okinawan Karateka tested themselves in Tegumi (Okinawan wrestling) which is vastly different to what was going on in mainland japan. In fact during the kendo like point competitions in mainland Japan - in Okinawa Bogu kumite was the more popular ruleset.

I feel like that is something to consider. Asato's kenjutsu principles and their influence on Funakoshi - I feel is very overlooked especially given that what actually played out - seems to imply that Asato's influence on Shotokan is understated.
The bogu kumite of Mabuni and other Okinawan styles still arguably "came from" Japan since that's where people first got the idea to use bogu armor for Karate sparring. Okinawan Shito and Goju have succumbed to "Japanese" point fighting eventually, as evident by their inclusion in the WKF.

Not that I'm particularly happy about that, actually I would prefer it the other way around - if Okinawan continuous bogu kumite rules prevailed over the Japanese point fighting, modern Karate worldwide would probably look much more like Kudo and much less like a game of tag. :D

I can't agree nor disagree with you about kendo influencing Funakoshi's Karate due to Asato's teachings - I think it's plausible but we really don't know enough about Asato to even imagine what his Karate looked like. It's an astounding mystery BTW, even looking at books, Wikipedia and web resources - we have a ton of info on Itosu and even Sokon Matsumura but barely anything about Asato!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankō_Asato
 
"It must be emphasized that sparring does not exist apart from the kata but for the practice of kata, so naturally there should be no corrupting influence on one's kata from sparring practice. When one becomes enthusiastic about sparring, there is a tendency for his kata to become bad., Karate, to the very end, should be practiced with kata as the principal method and sparring as a supporting method." - Funakoshi.

Funakoshi's rage imho was well placed. There's a lot of wisdom in that quote I just came across. Funakoshi seems well aware that your perception of the application of Kata is influenced by the sparring ruleset you went by - which was corrupting because you get multiple varying applications based on what works in each ruleset - the actual point of kata - self defence gets muddied in the process. He's advocating that Kata should inform your kumite - not that kumite should mold your kata.

He's describing the issue Karate has right now. Lots of different bunkai applications for the same kata depending on style/ruleset. This is probably why he was against competition when it was being introduced because it probably came at the cost of kata. You have to say he was right though - most people have no idea about the forms they learn including me. It's because kumite became the principle method - great for competition - and kata took the back seat. To the degree that hardly anyone really knows what's going in a large portion of kata.
Oh and I can definitely 100% agree with this! Abernethy is actually doing what I think Funakoshi had in mind - he calls it *Kata-based sparring*.

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/kata-based-sparring

PODCASTS:

Kata Based Sparring Principles: http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-principles

Kata Based Sparring Structure: http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-structure
 
what karate styles fight without shin pads? kyokushin? sometimes i see pads underneath the pants

In Kyokushin it depends on the dojos and tournaments but it's not rare to fight without shin pads. In my dojo shin pads were frown upon as something for the weak, while in some other dojos they wouldn't let you spar without them.

Most of the Kyokushin tournaments there are no shin pads though.
 
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