[Knockdown Karate] GB Male Fighters at 4th IFK World Tournament
- Thread starter Tayski
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
- Messages
- 459
- Reaction score
- 51
I take it tournament rules include no punches to the face, only body punches, but head kicks are allowed...
That falling to the ground in order to deliver a head kick to the opponent appears to be potentially one of the worst moves ever invented in the whole history of martial arts. Bit like the double guard pull but at least that is only a stylistic problem, not one likely to get your head stomped in a real fight.
That falling to the ground in order to deliver a head kick to the opponent appears to be potentially one of the worst moves ever invented in the whole history of martial arts. Bit like the double guard pull but at least that is only a stylistic problem, not one likely to get your head stomped in a real fight.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,540
- Reaction score
- 2,398
It is traditional kyokushin rules. Elbows&fists must hit below the neck. Its a trade-off for fighting bareknuckle.
Kicks and knees can target anywhere. KO/long knockdown=win. short knockdown (including turning away out of pain) is a half win, and you need two of them for it to be over.
If noone gets a KO/KD the referee can give it to a dominating fighter, or (much more commonly) order extension rounds.
The rolling/falling kicks are very risky techniques, but techniques that has been used to very good effect in both MMA and kickboxing (how many months was it Badr Hari had his jaw wired shut after Peter Graham "rolling thunder" kicked it to pieces?).
But yeah, it has become way to common. It causes a lot of spectacular KO
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 5,644
- Reaction score
- 2,335
it's not exactly the sort of technique you'd execute in a street fight, and you wouldn't really try head kicks or spinning kicks either in a street fight.
When it lands correctly it's very effective:
It's been used in Kickboxing many times, and even a few times in MMA.
GustavHolst**
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2011
- Messages
- 1,978
- Reaction score
- 0
Who gives a damn what would get their "head stomped in a real fight"? The IFK tournament doesn't exist to determine who has the best "real fight" prowess, but instead who is the best karateka. Funny how MMA fans need everything to cater to their overly machoistic view if what works in a "real fight."
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 5,644
- Reaction score
- 2,335
this.
besides, seeing what happens to guys like Falcao in a street fight gives you a good indication that no MMA training is going to prepare you for the wildness of street fights where anything goes including weapons and several opponents.
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,680
- Reaction score
- 354
I agree but I wouldn't say the best karateka but the best fighter under the ruleset - that said even though I do KK - there are things I don't like about the knockdown karate, I think they could make some improvements to it - like for example including waza-ari for sweeps or ashi barai's for example - that said I love knockdown, just not fond of the way many approach it technically.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 5,644
- Reaction score
- 2,335
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2013
- Messages
- 2,881
- Reaction score
- 1,828
Honestly I think that knockdown rules karate can be applied on the street. You would just use what moves are practical. If I'm a thiaboxer or a bjj fighter I'm not going to start throwing out flying knees, flop on my back and reach for a leg-lock, or head kicks with out setting it up with any punches. The argument that mma is the only real fighting is stupid concerting mma fighters spend most of their time on the ground. If two guys are rolling around on the ground fighting logically some were down the line other assholes are going to start stomping the guys that are wrestling. And any half wit that knows anything about anything can tell you there have been knock down karate practitioners that have done well in kick boxing and mma.
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,680
- Reaction score
- 354
sounds like you'd prefer knockdown under the Ashihara or Enshin rules then
I like the Ashihara/Enshin rules - although I personally am not fond of them either, at least not the way I am with normal knockdown rules - love it but think it could use some tweeking - as for the ashihara/enshin I don't like the excessive grabbing of the gi - I prefer the original knockdown karate method (i.e. no grabbing), the only thing I don't like is that sweeps aren't awarded waza-ari like they should be nor is any technique that puts off balance an opponent - technically it should be waza-ari but it isn't.
I'd like to see a slight merger though of KK rules & ashihara/enshin - i.e. minimal grabbing of gi (i.e. minimal in the sense - allowed to grab to gi when doing gedan barai for example - but no general grabbing if that makes sense), awarding of waza-ari for sweeps or techniques that put off balance (which is in the knockdown rulebook already but barely enforced), unsuccessful techniques that put you off balance or on the matt should count against you when scoring (which is not always the case) - that's about it lol - oh yeah & no rounds, just one round of say 10 minutes lol ----- I'm inventing my own dream rules lol.
Anyway I digress but that's how I feel on the subject - although I prefer normal knockdown to enshin/ashihara tbh.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2011
- Messages
- 5,644
- Reaction score
- 2,335
10 min rounds of knockdown, you nutter
But then it might make it slower, fights wouldn't be as fast paced as they are now with 2 min rounds.
on the sweep subject, I don't see why a sweep should be counted as a waza ari if you not even allowed throws or pushing. still, some organisations allow sweeps, they just don't score it as waza ari.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,540
- Reaction score
- 2,398
One of the things I love with knockdown is that every round is the last one.
You cannot hold back and pace yourself in anticipation of the next round, because it is up to the judges if there will be one more extension round or not. Also, every round starts without points, so you cannot hold back and rely on what you did in the previous rounds to give you a win.
So every round is the final one, with no scoring baggage from the previous rounds. Each fighter has to throw everything they have into every single round.
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Messages
- 2,680
- Reaction score
- 354
10 min rounds of knockdown, you nutter
But then it might make it slower, fights wouldn't be as fast paced as they are now with 2 min rounds.
on the sweep subject, I don't see why a sweep should be counted as a waza ari if you not even allowed throws or pushing. still, some organisations allow sweeps, they just don't score it as waza ari.
LOL - I know it's not an enticing thought. Fights wouldn't be slower per say but more cautious & more picking what you're throwing rather than just throwing it - to me it would make a better all round format since - having 2 min rounds & then maybe extensions - doesn't always mean the best karateka or best fighter wins - I've seen a lot of knockdown footage & there are many occasions where I wonder if the better karateka actually won or the one better suited to the format.
If you have one continuous round - I find that matches become truer matches of skill rather than matches of who's more explosive for each 2 min round - explosiveness & physicality takes precedence over actual skill when it shouldn't in knockdown - when you have one round of 10mins for example - it truly does become a battle of attrition & skill - a classic example I use a lot is the case of Feitosa vs Kazumi or even Thompson vs Matsui - the results would have been very different if extensions hadn't been granted (technically they shouldn't have in either case) - but could you say the best fighter/karateka would have won if they hadn't given Matsui or Kazumi the needed extension - given what happened next?
The more explosive fighter in knockdown karate usually wins not the better karateka and it's precisely because of the way the ruleset is structured - it favours a specific body/style type - maybe this has to do with Sosai's own philosophy or style of fighting. If you have one continuous round - there is no favouritism or advantage - it is a battle of skill & attrition within a competitive ruleset - this is why you have guys like Makoto Nakamura - technically not the greatest karateka but amazingly good at knockdown because the ruleset suited him - had it been one continuous round would he have been as good (if the rules didn't favour his style of fighting) - you only have to look at the failed 100 man attempt to know that stamina wasn't Nakamura Shihans strong point.
That's why I mentioned that Tayski lol not some mad sudden urge to have one continuous round lol.
As for the waza-ari, sweeps can be utilised without throwing or grabbing - by this I mean sweeping the supporting leg without grabbing or throwing (something insanely difficult to do) - a great example to illustrate what I'm talking about is Matsui - he successfully swept Hug twice in 4th world tournament final - technically it should have finished the second time Hug was swept but it wasn't - he also swept Thompson twice but nothing done - look at the case of Toru Okamoto vs Muzaffer - 7th shinkyokushin world tournament final - I mean how many times did he have to sweep him to get it called waza-ari - nothing was given - with the case of waza-ari I can understand why it's rewarded as so because technically stand up wise you're in the advantageous position.
This is precisely why I have an itch with knockdown karate - is the best martial artists actually winning or the one whose body/style type is more suited to the rules - in the case of one continuous round there is no real leaning - a neutral playing field if that makes sense - as Oyama famously said true fighting is a battle of stamina & knockdown should be as well - one continuous round does a better job at telling you who the better martial artist is & I feel that should be the point of competition not entertainment.
