Kyle Dake Study -- Embrace the Scramble: Part I | Page 2

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by DPS831, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. PolishHeadlock Putin Belt

    PolishHeadlock
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    I don't really think there is any basis for saying Askren would have been better under a different approach. He destroyed Herbert in college and also destroyed him later in Freestyle after Herbert won a World Silver.

    It's not like people were "catching up" to him in College. I think Hendricks beat him up pretty good when they were seniors in HS and Askren ended up having the better college career. Pendelton had his number but Pendleton was a great wrestler in his own right so I don't see how losing to him as underclassmen can be a knock. It should also be noted that Askren could have wrestled at 165 if he wanted to but he wrestled up at 174 so he was giving up size and still went 2-2-1-1 with his only losses to Pendleton. He wasn't catching guys in "noob traps".

    As far as the Olympics go I agree that his style didn't seem well suited for Freestyle but that has nothing to do with Folk. And is should be pointed out that Askren had a very short international career where he was concentrating on Freestyle.

    He tried out for Worlds only twice (in 2005 while still competing in college and in 2010 when he was already competing in MMA).

    The one time he actually concentrated on Freestyle he made the Olympic team and lost to Ivan Fondura from Cuba who was a very good wrestler with a World and Olympic Bronze medals on his resume and he pinned the guy in the first round.
     
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  2. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    I wouldn't call it athleticism in the traditional sense that's meant, namely that someone is really fast, or strong, or explosive. We just call it 'hips' in BJJ, I think wrestlers use that term too, no? Personally I think Askren choosing to specialize in funk was a very practical choice, he's not that traditionally athletic but his style plays very well with what he did have in terms of great balance and kinesthetic awareness. If you'd tried to train him in a more orthodox style he probably would have done worse.
     
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  3. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    Well all i'll say is, not even Askren wrestles like Askren anymore.
     
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  4. PolishHeadlock Putin Belt

    PolishHeadlock
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    He also doesn't wrestle anymore, he fights.
     
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  5. jack36767 Brown Belt

    jack36767
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    That has to do with the meta of mma.. if you look at Askrens progression internationally under retarded rules and whatnot.. he was on a very good development path, contrary to what some people say he didn’t stop wrestling because freestyle wasn’t suited for him after the Olympics.. it was because of money and how much more he’d make in mma. In fact people like him leaving for mma was the catalyst for a lot of the much bigger medal prize funds and the RTCs

    While bad scrambling is annoying to me as it’s annoying to the most old school coaches. Calling Askrens style and techniques “noob traps” displays either willful or massive ignorance. You do understand that wrestlers with WORLD gold and silvers used the same “noob traps” correct? Kendall cross and Stephen Abas to name a couple.. in fact the funk roll used to be called the “Abas Roll” until Askren came along

    I could go on but I’m tired
     
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  6. dsdoubled Purple Belt

    dsdoubled
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    I worked with a few wrestlers and MMA fighters on a S&C level and did proprioception drills to enhance things like scrambling ability. Knowing where your body is in space without having to look or touch is a huge asset to have. Some of the guys responded to it better than others so its hard to say if its a worthwhile form of training. You might be better off live wrestling at half speed or something. Point is, you can definitely train for it but is the juice worth the squeeze? Its also interesting to note, Cary Kolat says he advises all parents who want their kids to wrestle to do a year or 2 of gymnastics first. He says "how can you control someone elses body if you cannot control your own...?"
     
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  7. dsdoubled Purple Belt

    dsdoubled
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    I strongly feel that its the more cerebral, intelligent, grapplers that scramble best. That kind of approach just lends itself better to coming out on top of a chaotic/dynamic exchange. Powerhouse grapplers (and powerhouse athletes in general) seem to have more of a macro type approach and the finer points/nuances are just too easily overlooked with that kind of approach.
     
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  8. dsdoubled Purple Belt

    dsdoubled
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    Yeah supposedly the "living the Dream Fund" specifically (250k for Olympic gold, 100k for world gold) was implemented after guys like Hendricks and Askren went to MMA. Jordan Burroughs was NOT expected to do what he is doing.
     
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  9. dsdoubled Purple Belt

    dsdoubled
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    BTW Kyle Dake just mopped the floor with 5 really good wrestlers at the World Clubs Cup Championships. I think he Teched everyone. He is a strong candidate for world gold this year at 79 kilos. USA Freestyle team will probably look like

    Gilman
    Steiber
    Molinaro
    Green
    Burroughs
    Dake
    Taylor
    Cox
    Snyder
    Gwizz
     
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  10. dsdoubled Purple Belt

    dsdoubled
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    I think Ben was such a grappling genius he wouldve taken a world medal had he stuck around longer. When it comes to switching from NCAA to Olympic wrestling getting used to the rules is just as important as what type of style you employ as a wrestler. Also, I think Ryan Lang beat Ben in College too.
     
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  11. PolishHeadlock Putin Belt

    PolishHeadlock
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    I got Zain over Molinaro.
     
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  12. PolishHeadlock Putin Belt

    PolishHeadlock
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    I think he had a 2 year window after the Olympics because he wasn't beating JB imo.
     
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  13. Daniel Fox Green Belt

    Daniel Fox
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    First of all I would like to say that I would rate Askren as one of the top 5 folk style wrestlers in history. Yes he did have losses, but with the exception to one person, everyone should have losses, if they don't it usually means their competition sucks. Askren does some bizarre stuff that would not work for 99% of the population, and it would be foolish to teach it to new wrestlers. For example Askren would do a lazy shot and get sprawled on with his arms fully extended. For 99% of the population this is the worst position you can be in, however Askren would thrive in that position. Due to his flexibility, lanky build, and his scrambling ability he could take a lazy shot and not get smashed, in fact when he did this he would usually end up with the point. I actually give Askren credit for this because he does things that I am sure he was told by many coaches not to do, it worked for him and with his tremendous self confidence he developed a very exciting style of wrestling. Askren was one of if not the most exciting folk style wrestlers to watch.

    What Askren does is not a Noob trap for Askren. It worked for him, and I give him props for going against the grain, but honestly, like I mentioned before I do not think it would work for 99% of the population. There are many moves he did do that would work, and certainly are not "Noob Traps" but a lot of his moves would get most wrestlers in trouble, to be honest the same goes for most great wrestlers, they have genetic gifts that most of us do not have.

    Many of his signature moves, more specifically his funk rolls, would actually give points to his opponents (for example a 2-2 roll) in a freestyle match. I don't doubt that he could have excelled in Freestyle, but he would have had to change his style drastically from the way he wrestled in college. Abbas, and Cross did have funky styles in college but they adapted it for freestyle, I imagine Askren could have done the same, but we may never know.
     
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  14. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    I'll be the first to say me using terms like that was for the purposes of hyperbole; the point though was to draw parallels with (hence the scare quotes)/illustrate an underlying dynamic, which i hope was understood.

    As defensive and counter-attacking methodologies i have little criticism for funking; in fact, for these purposes i think it is great. I understand that going beyond analysis or even constructive criticism and into contradiction of the way(s) a well known high level athlete does things carries significantly more social risk than either of the former ('well who the heck are you to think you know better huh?'); if it helps you at all do not consider this is a personal attack on Askren's 'worthiness' of a wrestler in general; my main sticking point concerns the study of film of Askren's college matches specifically, and what lesions, principles, or essentials one might derive from it.

    Let me modulate this right here: i do not mean this to be hyperbolic, so don't take it as an absolute or comprehensive statement, but as indicating a component dynamic that trends higher on a continuum, relative to other methodologies; when you look at his feats, one of the big take aways i get is, 'this is a sublime display of superior prescience, mat sense, and balancing'. That is to say, that he did what he did in itself was a demonstration of above and beyond such manner of ability. Or in other words, when little timmy is asking you how he can do that; "well that easy timmy, all you gotta do is be more talented than your opponent"; "thanks coach, i'll get right on that".

    I've mentioned before that i had been studying several different Schalles Award winners, particularly wrestlers who have won it more than once (eg, Scott Moore, Taylor Walsh, Ben Askren, and Zain Retherford), to see how they did what they did, if there were any commonalities amongst them, and what lesions could be taken way. In preliminary brushes i had in fact found some certain common threads, such as convergence onto certain rides (crossbody with power half was very common), or certain offensive tendencies (often a preference for takedowns that can lead directly into exposure from neutral, such as the reverse headlock). Askren however, stood apart; a data point incongruent with trends observed elsewhere.

    When you've got a case of someone winning big in ways noone else is, it occasions a reductive first question; are they so great as to succeed ultimately despite their methodology? Or are their methods in fact more essentially virtuous than their competition in a way that others theretofore or since failed to appreciate? (Or is it, because they are so great, they can access such greater methods otherwise inaccessible to lesser competitors?).

    To give an example, I have never really seen someone in greco-roman do things much the same way Karelin had, but watching his film, i found it easy to appreciate the methods underlying his dominance; in particular, his chronic and insistent pursual of the inside two-on-one/reenforced armdrag control (which, for lack of a term i could find, i've called 'polearm control'). Without fail, he would reach for that 2on1 arm drag position, and none of his opponents could really do anything about it except stall, which of course just got them penalized, putting them on the ground, where he would then go to his patented bodylock attack. He did pretty much the exact same stuff for over a decade, and noone ever really scouted him out on it; only father time took that L.

    Of course his primary attack was sport specific, but it is also something that is not particularly inimitable; i'd say if you took another good guy and had him use the same methods in the clinch he'd also have good success with them; i'd go so far as to say that he came the closest any athlete has had to rendering a combat sport down to a solved problem.

    Watching college film on Askren though often occasioned two thoughts; 'this guy is clearly a genius', and, 'im not sure how i'd square this with teaching a system to a bunch of different athletes'.

    Was Askren's method great? Or was it Askren that was great?

    >well why chose when you could just teach all of it

    Yeah but you can't just teach all of it; nor would you want too, anyways.

    >well what if it was both

    If it's both, what reason is there to not be all-in-ing on the method, anyways? Wrestling is an old sport; pretty much everything people do now has also been done in the past, including what Ben did. It's an honest question then; why isn't it more common?

    I understand the meta-gaming; even a highly marginal strategy can be(come) adaptive if few others are gameplaning or spending training time on the matter, or if so many are overspecializing into an essential 'meat' that the field becomes vulnerable to secondary 'potatoes'. Certainly i'd try to make sure at least one of my guys are each a specialist at different popular metas, if only for the purposes of camp preparation. The question becomes, at what point does trying to go 'uphill' through more essentially disadvantageous TTPs stop being contingently advantageous? I think in a lot of cases that margin in fact is fairly narrow, and if you've got a world class talent on your hands, and you're in charge of grooming them to stand on the podium, i think trying to make them a grappling hipster is doing them a disservice; the easiest way to beat the best is to do what the best do better (which is actually the hard way; which is the easy way).

    Let me tell you, i post on these forums just as much for my own benefit as anyone elses; if you have good ideas on the matter by all means share, im interested in it. It's what we're all here for right?
     
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  15. Daniel Fox Green Belt

    Daniel Fox
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    Well said!
     
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  16. PolishHeadlock Putin Belt

    PolishHeadlock
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    I think this some up a lot of what I disagree with you about.

    Why do Russians have different wrestling styles to Iranians? Because that's what they are taught.

    There aren't more Ben Askrens because there aren't a lot of coaches that know how to teach it.

    It's a niche sport that never had much money involved with it so wrestlers when they were done competing went on to their normal lives.

    The coaching trees in wrestling aren't many and I think up until recently a lot of this type of wrestling was discouraged at the youth and high school level by coaches who couldn't do it themselves and didn't know how to teach it.
     
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  17. yetanother Purple Belt

    yetanother
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    Don't the too approaches work together to a degree?
    In BJJ at least most of the best guys use both a lot of the common strong is almost-all-meta-games moves as well as a bunch of a unique stuff (small variations of common stuff can be vastly more efficient) and one-off trickery.
     
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  18. rmongler Brown Belt

    rmongler
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    I thought like this would probably be a response, and i actually agree with it too a degree.* But i don't think it's responsive to most of the other points also.

    *Too a degree, since, in my experience, nothing succeeds like success; if someone starts getting lots of high profile success with a certain method, lots of people start trying to copy them; and if those people also start succeeding more, it snowballs and a new equilibrium is reached. Topical example: the recent surge in leg entanglement development in submission grappling.
     
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  19. Daniel Fox Green Belt

    Daniel Fox
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    In order to have someone emulate Askren, they would have to have the same body type, the same flexibility, the same self confidence. For most wrestlers I think this would be impossible. Although I do agree with the rest of your post.
     
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  20. PolishHeadlock Putin Belt

    PolishHeadlock
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    Let's not miss the forest for the trees here.

    I jumped in at the idea that Askren would have been better served by taking a different approach to the sport and that he was catching people in noob traps.

    But if you followed the guys career from HS through 08 you can see that he improved against the field every year. He went from losing handily to Matt Palmer at Senior Nationals to beating Brad Dillion and Tyler Nixt in 1-2pt matches as a Freshman to bonus pointing anyone not named Pendleton.

    In Freestyle he started out losing to Matt Lackey and Tyrone Lewis to defeating them and everyone else in the US.

    As far as others emulating him I don't think anyone really copies any great wrestlers style but that doesn't mean you can't take pieces of their game and see if it works for you.

    Nobody is coping Randy Lewis, Jason Nolf, Joe Melchiore but I would still study their game and implement anything you think you can make work.

    How many people have the speed to copy John Smith or Jordan Burroughs style? Should you not work on angles because you can't hit a double from space?

    I think we have to remember that this is a sport and athleticism of all kinds whether it be speed, flexibility or balance are part of the game.

    And fuck you guys for making me defend Ben Askren. I honestly was never a big fan of the guy. I think I cheered against him in every NCAA finals he was in. I've never even watched him in an MMA bout.

    I don't trust people with chins that big.
     
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