Kyokushin/Muay Thai pros and cons

[AndyMaBobs]

You clearly don't understand it then, talking out of our ass once again.



And here again talking out of your ass. Liver is not a prohibited target in boxing, it's very much a go to target.

Are you ever going to stop talking shit?

Have you noticed that trolls now expose themselves as such with more or less the first post? I gotta say I still refuse to acknowledge spacetime posts

 

[Tayski]

Bruises that were the size of a nickel would grow and become lighter as they grew. If I took my shirt off at the swimming pool, people would be shocked to see the bruising. There was one lady who believed I was a torture victim.

Haha I had a similar experience a few years ago. I once walked into the office in only a t-shirt during a very hot summer day and had been doing quite a lot of Knockdown sparring that week. I walked through the marketing department (which had a majority of women) limping and full of bruises on my arms. They asked me if I was OK with really concerned tones and looks. They thought I had been in a car crash or had been jumped by a group of thugs the night before. For me that was just regular weekly Kyokushin training at the time, it was making me laugh. Looking back at it now I think it was probably a bit too much, but it does make you mentally and physically strong though.

I will say though that Kyokushin training is generally much more intensive/debilitating than MT sessions. I think though MT seems to do a better job of not emptying your cup so much that you miss the next training session whereas in Kyokushin training it's not out of the ordinary to see miss sessions because the last session fucked you up.

I have to agree with that, having trained in both. I have never been as physically spent and broken as after a solid Kyokushin training session - which I really enjoyed. The upside of that is that it makes you very mentally and physically strong and resistant, nothing scares you or hurts you anymore. The downside however is indeed that your body is all destroyed the next day and you might at times miss some training sessions because of accumulated damage / injuries. I tried to do 4-5 training sessions a week in Kyokushin sometimes by going to different dojos in the same week but found it very difficult to do for more than a few weeks because of how much body damage you accumulate.

In Muay Thai you still get some proper good training sessions that really drain you physically, but it's usually not as hard on the body so that you're able to train 5+ times a week if you want to and also not get injured so you're able to fight regularly.

So yeah if you only want to train like 2 times a week Kyokushin is fine, but if you want to train 4-5 times a week or more it can be difficult unless you have a dojo which offers "rest" days during which the focus is around kihon/kata/Goshin-Jitsu rather than hard body conditioning and sparring.

I remember asking about the drop out rate to either you or another KK poster, to which the reply was that it has the highest dropout rate in all combat sports. For the rough gym-wars-on-the-reg, Is that a KK thing or rather a east euro gym culture thing?

Kyokushin tends to have a very high drop out rate when it's a real tough dojo indeed. That's the mentality behind Kyokushin though and how Mas Oyama the founder of Kyokushin was running his first ever dojo.

There are several reasons behind that I believe:

• First of all that's how Oyama did it. He only wanted to keep the toughest of the toughest and weed out the weak. Quote from a website:
  "The Oyama Dojo members took their Kumite seriously, seeing it primarily as a fighting art, so they expected to hit and to be hit. With few restrictions, attacking the head was common, usually with the palm heel or towel-wrapped knuckles. Grabs, throws, and groin attacks were also common. Kumite rounds would continue till one person loudly conceded defeat. Injuries occurred on a daily basis and the dropout rate was high (over 90%).".
• So still today one of the reasons is probably to weed out the weak minded. If people can't handle pain or getting beat up they will simply won't come back. Only the persistent ones will come back. Certainly that was how our head instructor at my dojo viewed things.
  
  
• There doesn't tend to be several groups by level in most dojos; like beginners, general, intermediate etc. unlike some of the Muay Thai or Kickboxing gyms. In Kyokushin everybody trains in the same class, so you could easily end up sparring a black belt as a white belt etc.
  
  
• Most Kyokushin dojos and instructors aren't here to make money but rather to teach their art as a hobby and make people tough, so they aren't necessarily trying to get a big number of students. So for them it doesn't matter if a lot of students decide not to come back because it's too tough. They'd rather make sure the training is real and hard rather than trying to soften the training to accommodate the weaker students. You're thrown into the deep water and you just gotta swim. At least that was my experience when I first started it, but also why I absolutely loved it. On the contrary a lot of MT, KB, Boxing gyms etc. are at the end of the day a business where the gym owners and coaches are doing that as a full time job and therefore having a lot students who pay regularly is important, so they prefer having a lot of students and then maybe breaking them into groups. That's also why those gyms usually want their fighters to compete and fight and represent the gym, giving it a reputation and in return bringing new students. It's a different focus in Kyokushin Karate.

Have you noticed that trolls now expose themselves as such with more or less the first post? I gotta say I still refuse to acknowledge spacetime posts

It's just a shame that the newer readers and posters on this forum wouldn't necessarily be able to tell who's full of shit and they might actually take those trolls' words on some of the non sense

as for pros for kyokushin over MT? how about not getting punch drunk?

Getting punch drunk in MT is not nearly as common as in Boxing or Kickboxing. Mostly Because the scoring doesn't put emphasis on the punches but also because clinching is allowed, so when you get within that range you can just clinch.

The punch-drunk syndrome also seems to be more present in the heavier weight divisions regardless of the sport, as they hit harder with more weight behind their punches. And in Muay Thai the majority of the fighters are towards the lighter weight classes.

I can think of a tons of MMA, Boxing, and Kickboxing fighters who are punch drunk, but can't really think of many Muay Thai fighters who are punch drunk.

 

[ARIZE]

I'm one of those guys with the GSP syndrome... After every sparring, even light ones, i have huge bruises... My forearms and my shins are constantly purple/yellow... My forehead has always some red marks, and the black eye has a monthly, at least, appointment...
The only good thing its that they usually appear a few hours after the fight, and not during, so it doesn't influence the judges... Also, i don't have a desk job, so it's not very important, but i look constantly like a crash victim.

 

[shincheckin]

punch drunk is nonsense.

it happens yes. I would equate it to winning the lottery or getting struck by lighting.

99% of the population of professional boxers do not end up like Ali.

 

[j123]

punch drunk is nonsense.

it happens yes. I would equate it to winning the lottery or getting struck by lighting.

99% of the population of professional boxers do not end up like Ali.

nice, so I can do chin conditioning and get away scott free



Gonna teach my classes with this plan in mind

 

[Azam]

punch drunk is nonsense.

it happens yes. I would equate it to winning the lottery or getting struck by lighting.

99% of the population of professional boxers do not end up like Ali.

Cognitive issues, mental & neurological degradation is not nonsense and very common.

It happens to most of those that engage in any combat sport in differing degrees and most of the damage is accumulated in training.

Punch drunk is a very visible symptom and it's much greater than 1% in boxing & any other combat sport. More probable than getting struck by lightning.

Most neurological damage isn't visible but is much more serious than being punch drunk. There is a lot of research (some I've posted here) that all quite unanimously agree that there are neurological changes in brain chemistry from prolonged training in any combat sport (of course this includes any activity that makes your brain slosh about).

Obviously we are all grown men here and we can do what we want. But that's the truth of the matter do with it what you will.


Also in regards to MT - we don't really know how bad cte & other brain related issues are because unfortunately there is virtually no research on any thai fighters or MT fighters. But I think just because you can't see the symptoms of brain trauma in MT doesn't mean that it's less than kickboxing or mma. Sure in MT you can clinch & scoring also seems to factor in with the technique shot selection - which all play a part in reducing the amount of trauma you might receive. But it might all be invalidated simply by the fact that your average MT fighter will compete much more regularly than a boxer or a kickboxer. So there's no real idea on how extensive the problem is in MT.

I will say though that the Thai's do have it on the money when they spar light frequently. Most of the damage I feel isn't done in competition it's done out of it. It's a mix bag though - you will get harder sparring in most full contact styles - you even get it in kudo (what I do) and I'd be lying if I said I haven't had headaches, had difficulty thinking after especially harder sparring sessions (I'm sure all of us have had these temporary issues after harder sparring - imagine the effects over years of doing that.... It's why I've cut back on full contact training a bit & do more uechi ryu. I'm not a fighter nor do aspire to be - maybe a few competitions here & there but nothing major. I'd like to keep my brain cells as much as possible and be able to have the mental comprehension to enjoy life.

 

[Azam]

I'm one of those guys with the GSP syndrome... After every sparring, even light ones, i have huge bruises... My forearms and my shins are constantly purple/yellow... My forehead has always some red marks, and the black eye has a monthly, at least, appointment...
The only good thing its that they usually appear a few hours after the fight, and not during, so it doesn't influence the judges... Also, i don't have a desk job, so it's not very important, but i look constantly like a crash victim.

Funnily enough after years of training I've never once had bruising even when I collided shins with someone (have had lumps on the shins though) or got smacked pretty hard in the ribs - maybe because I'm brown lol. My injuries have only been my thumbs & my knees really.

I can relate to the stiffness and walking around like you've been beaten up if it was an especially brutal session - it happened more so in the beginning or after a long time away and your first couple of sessions back. I think after a while you adjust - you still walk like somethings wrong with you but not as bad as a crash victim lol.

When I restarted kyokushin training in my old London Bridge dojo - every session I was walking & taking the train home (45min journey) like a crash victim. Thankfully driving made it more bearable lol.

 

[j123]

Funnily enough after years of training I've never once had bruising even when I collided shins with someone (have had lumps on the shins though) or got smacked pretty hard in the ribs - maybe because I'm brown lol. My injuries have only been my thumbs & my knees really.

I can relate to the stiffness and walking around like you've been beaten up if it was an especially brutal session - it happened more so in the beginning or after a long time away and your first couple of sessions back. I think after a while you adjust - you still walk like somethings wrong with you but not as bad as a crash victim lol.

When I restarted kyokushin training in my old London Bridge dojo - every session I was walking & taking the train home (45min journey) like a crash victim. Thankfully driving made it more bearable lol.

Isn't it more risky driving in that condition? Coming back from training barely walking and feeling fucked up.

I've had some gym wars and I normally take the transit, but damn if I were to drive I probably wouldn't make it.

 

[krugansjj]

I've been to a few Kyokushin classes and I believe the guy. Have you even tried it or are you here only to shit on other arts and posters?

If you believe in him and your problem! I've fought MMA and Muaythai. Bet you're just a couch commentator!

 

[Hotora86]

If you believe in him and your problem! I've fought MMA and Muaythai. Bet you're just a couch commentator!

 

[ARIZE]

@Azam

Funnily enough after years of training I've never once had bruising even when I collided shins with someone (have had lumps on the shins though) or got smacked pretty hard in the ribs - maybe because I'm brown lol.

The thing is, that those bruises are not injuries... They don't hurt, they don't become bumps... It's just my skin that is faked up. And I'm white as snow... It doesn't help in that regard.

My injuries have only been my thumbs & my knees really.

You're lucky... I've probably injured every part of my body one way of another...
And those goddamned toes... They are constantly hurt.

Isn't it more risky driving in that condition? Coming back from training barely walking and feeling fucked up.

I've had some gym wars and I normally take the transit, but damn if I were to drive I probably wouldn't make it.

I drive a motorcycle... The worst thing for me, is when I am mentally a zombie from a hard session. It's not the body, it's the mind that doesn't seem to work, concentrate on driving.
I think we all have some sessions where at the end, we can't count to 5 without messing it. I leave the gym, and I'm back home, and i don't remember how the fak did I get there... Scary feeling...

 

[aerius]

Isn't it more risky driving in that condition? Coming back from training barely walking and feeling fucked up.

I've had some gym wars and I normally take the transit, but damn if I were to drive I probably wouldn't make it.

The driving part isn't so bad, it's the getting out of the car part when you arrive home that kills you. There was one time when I drove home after a long sparring session and parked my car in the garage, then couldn't get out of the car since everything had stiffened up during the drive home. I had to back the car into the driveway so I could get the door all the way open, then kinda rolled out of the car and picked my sorry ass up off the ground.

I drive a motorcycle... The worst thing for me, is when I am mentally a zombie from a hard session. It's not the body, it's the mind that doesn't seem to work, concentrate on driving.
I think we all have some sessions where at the end, we can't count to 5 without messing it. I leave the gym, and I'm back home, and i don't remember how the fak did I get there... Scary feeling...

Back in my youth I used to work rotating shifts with lots of overtime, I got pretty used to functioning in zombie mode where I'd drive or do all sorts of things and have no friggin idea of what happened. I think the funniest for me was when I cooked an entire meal in zombie mode and then halfway through eating it I was like "where did this food come from?" cause I didn't remember anything between leaving work and eating my meal.

Now that I'm older I don't do that shit anymore, and I realize how lucky I am that I didn't kill myself or anyone else. Scares the hell out of me if I think about it too much.

 

[j123]

I drive a motorcycle... The worst thing for me, is when I am mentally a zombie from a hard session. It's not the body, it's the mind that doesn't seem to work, concentrate on driving.
I think we all have some sessions where at the end, we can't count to 5 without messing it. I leave the gym, and I'm back home, and i don't remember how the fak did I get there... Scary feeling...

Scary stuff indeed. It doesn't help that drivers out there don't respect motorcyclists and cut you off.

The driving part isn't so bad, it's the getting out of the car part when you arrive home that kills you. There was one time when I drove home after a long sparring session and parked my car in the garage, then couldn't get out of the car since everything had stiffened up during the drive home. I had to back the car into the driveway so I could get the door all the way open, then kinda rolled out of the car and picked my sorry ass up off the ground.

lol that sounds like a fight itself.

I used to play basketball frequently before starting my journey down to combats sports, and I remember at one game, my friend went for a layup and landed wrong on the defender and sprained his ankle. He drives stick so he couldn't drive back home. Couldn't even tap the clutch without excruciating pain. He had to hitch a ride back with his brother and asked a friend nearby to help drive it back.

So I figured it'd be kinda similar from body strain or getting impaired from head trauma.

If I haven't clinched in awhile and I end up doing alot of clinch "sparring", the DOMs come in and my neck can't turn without strain. There goes checking my blindspot.

Now that I'm older I don't do that shit anymore, and I realize how lucky I am that I didn't kill myself or anyone else. Scares the hell out of me if I think about it too much.

At the end of the day we all train and/or compete in combat sports so we like challenges and bravado things out, but really there has to be a time to know when to call it off.

 

[ARIZE]

@aerius

I'm not a young guy anymore, and i had my fair share of shitty jobs, hard work, over time etc... So i know exactly what you mean. But still, hard training sessions can get in me in a stage of zombines that i never experienced before, not in shitty jobs, not in shitty moments with the (obligatory) army...

At the end of the day we all train and/or compete in combat sports so we like challenges and bravado things out, but really there has to be a time to know when to call it off.

I'm probably to stupid for that... But it's not about challenges or bravado anymore, I'm way past that phase...It's just all i know, the only thing I'm good at and enjoying it... I cannot imagine stopping it, and even becoming a trainer wont really do it for me. It's not the same. I know that been "only" an athlete, is a NO FUTURE way of life...But fak it. It is what it is...

 

[j123]

@aerius

I'm not a young guy anymore, and i had my fair share of shitty jobs, hard work, over time etc... So i know exactly what you mean. But still, hard training sessions can get in me in a stage of zombines that i never experienced before, not in shitty jobs, not in shitty moments with the (obligatory) army...



I'm probably to stupid for that... But it's not about challenges or bravado anymore, I'm way past that phase...It's just all i know, the only thing I'm good at and enjoying it... I cannot imagine stopping it, and even becoming a trainer wont really do it for me. It's not the same. I know that been "only" an athlete, is a NO FUTURE way of life...But fak it. It is what it is...

I didn't mean to stop the lifestyle, but for looking ahead. Simple things as having a rib injury, but getting paranoid about taking time off and jumping into sparring only to re-injure it more.

I hear ya though on wanting to keep the ride as long as possible. I've coached a fighter and while its different, its still not the same as competing and training. I will say I hate class teaching, I can never give everyone the equal experience they came for. Hell sometimes at the end I won't remember everyone's names. Individual 1 on 1, yeah 100% I'm for, and I'm able to track progress on what to work during the camp period.

 

[spacetime]

You clearly don't understand it then, talking out of our ass once again.
?

Oh really. Inform me then of amateur Swedish Thaiboxning fights with elbows allowed. You are the one talking out of your ass.

 

[spacetime]

Have you noticed that trolls now expose themselves as such with more or less the first post? I gotta say I still refuse to acknowledge spacetime posts

You haven't posted anything of substance or knowledge ever.

 

[ARIZE]

I will say I hate class teaching

I've decline offers to teach MT at some MMA gyms because of that. I really like to help, explain stuffs to someone, but i must like that person. I've done personal training to people i know, and only one or two at the time. It was fun. But I cannot deal with classes, lots of people, or people i don't like.
And as you said...Its something totally different from training yourself, competing etc...

 

[j123]

Oh really. Inform me then of amateur Swedish Thaiboxning fights with elbows allowed. You are the one talking out of your ass.

IFMA

You haven't posted anything of substance or knowledge ever.

lol

 

[AndyMaBobs]

IFMA


lol

Someone will finally ban him eventually, and he'll have to create a new gimmick