Kyokushin: Your face=punch magnet?

o ok. I wasnt saying that big gloves give you bad habits but that most mma gyms do some light sparring with mma gloves to get used to the differences, which are significant. Most kickboxers i see block with their gloves and cover up which is why ive seen top ones have trouble defending punches in mma. Spong,verhooven, overeem for a while.

Yeah, I hate to have to say it, but defense in kickboxing is and has been shown to be.... "not ideal" in terms of overall standup. The middle to later years of the last decade have shown us plenty.

Kickboxing as it stands now is more of a theoretically offensive discipline, especially the way it is taught and emphasized. This is not to say you can't include optimal defense into your kickboxing, but if you do, most coaches will not be having it because they are used to a different way.
 
Yeah, I hate to have to say it, but defense in kickboxing is and has been shown to be.... "not ideal" in terms of overall standup.

Kickboxing as it stands now is more of a theoretically offensive discipline, especially the way it is taught and emphasized.
Oh ok that is what I was reffering to when i said it was completely different with big gloves. Under kickboxing rules that strategy actually works. Im glad you understand that.
 
I guess that's where the miscommunication happened. You are correct for kickboxers but boxers arent taught to rely on the size or extra padding of the 16 oz glove so when it is removed, they are not at a disadvantage.
 
No.

A good example is this:



Shokei Matsui, someone with absolutely masterful technique and timing, perhaps the best Kyokushin practitioner of all time, looks like a clumsy beginner when punches to the head are allowed. Someone with two weeks of boxing under their belt would've beat him. He's lucky he was against a limp-wristed Kung Fu guy that had even less experience than him.


I agree with everything you're saying.

While that video does show the weaknesses of kyokushin training you should take it with a grain of salt.

The guys Matsui is sparring/fighting in that video aren't limp wristed kung fu guys. They are students of Kenichi Sawai (5th dan judoka/taikiken instructor) - who was by all accounts a no-nonsense guy. Most of his students were very accomplished judoka/karateka and there were a lot of serious judoka/karateka that lined up to get instruction from him.

The guy Matsui is fighting here is Shimada - at this point in time he was a newbie (just started training in Taikiken). I'm guessing this is why he was paired up with Matsui (Matsui is very young here himself).

That limp wristed kung fu guy is now a judo/karate blackbelt - everyone has to start from somewhere. Unfortunately for him - his first time probably doing this was recorded.

But it does show the weaknesses of kyokushin training - that a guy with very little experience gave him such problems. Unfortunately most don't think there is an issue. To each his own I say.
 
Also I'll add with the 16oz glove debate - it doesn't seem to be an issue for boxers like @Reyesnuthugr said. It is an issue if your main defense mechanism is shelling/turtling up like @n.diazismylife1999 said which seems to be more of a norm in kickboxing.
 
I agree with everything you're saying.

While that video does show the weaknesses of kyokushin training you should take it with a grain of salt.

The guys Matsui is sparring/fighting in that video aren't limp wristed kung fu guys. They are students of Kenichi Sawai (5th dan judoka/taikiken instructor) - who was by all accounts a no-nonsense guy. Most of his students were very accomplished judoka/karateka and there were a lot of serious judoka/karateka that lined up to get instruction from him.

The guy Matsui is fighting here is Shimada - at this point in time he was a newbie (just started training in Taikiken). I'm guessing this is why he was paired up with Matsui (Matsui is very young here himself).

That limp wristed kung fu guy is now a judo/karate blackbelt - everyone has to start from somewhere. Unfortunately for him - his first time probably doing this was recorded.

But it does show the weaknesses of kyokushin training - that a guy with very little experience gave him such problems. Unfortunately most don't think there is an issue. To each his own I say.
"Limp-wristed kung fu guys" pretty much just means that nobody in that video has any idea how to do proper sparring with rules that allow hits to the head. I'm sure they were great martial artists in their own context -- Matsui certainly was and is, despite looking so weak there.
 
I agree to a certain extent....some of my thoughts from doing both Kyokushin & Muay Thai:

-Yes Kyokushin's weakness is the face punches
-Yes you will be in some serious trouble fighting a boxer/MT/KB

BUT...if you are an average joe, recreational guy

-The risk of injury to the head/face is drastically reduced
-You still have to block head level kicks, so some basic head and guard work will be taught
-You still get to train full contact without worrying about getting any head/face injuries

If you're worried about street fights, a good bare knuckled kyokushin punch right to the sternum, liver, solar plexus, is good enough to let your opponent know who they are messing with. It's easier to give a good body shot too.
 
Nice post @Tkd10 .

Getting hit in the face regularly, is unhealthy, doesn't look good when you are going to your work
with bruises and having headaches after sparring that blocks you from working and putting
your brain to use can be a serious issue.

Kyokushin prepares a person more than adequately to run over any (unarmed) assailant
and minimizes the above risks more than any other serious martial art.
 
"there's no reason to take up KK over muay thai"

I agree from a pragmatic standpoint... but who cares? If someone wants to make it a bit harder for themselves in order to pursue something they really want to do then I'm not gonna stand in their way. They'll still be a tough mother fucker either way if they stick with it.
 
Maybe not any pragmatic reason to specialize in Kyokushin as your only art, but cross-training it has its benefits over Muay Thai. It's great for focusing on kicks, offensively and defensively.
 
"there's no reason to take up KK over muay thai"

I agree from a pragmatic standpoint... but who cares? If someone wants to make it a bit harder for themselves in order to pursue something they really want to do then I'm not gonna stand in their way. They'll still be a tough mother fucker either way if they stick with it.
non fighting related but I find the cultural thing pretty cool. The whole dying like a man thing is appealing. Bushido version of Let me bang bro

I do hate it though when I spar and gym hero says: don't punch me in the face, I have [x]. Throws alot of my game off, I guess KK cats don't have that problem
 
This. There are so many creative ways to use GNP in MMA. In fact GNP is an entire art on its own that doesn't exist in any sport other than MMA. It's one of the few aspects that's entirely unique to MMA, and it's still largely being innovated. Look at something like Diaz punching McGregor's head into an RNC, then I just saw a guy on the Tuesday night contender series do the same thing. Side note: anyone who hasn't seen that needs to watch the Snoopcast, it's brought more joy to my life than I can adequately describe here.
i managed to catch a bloke in a back choke while still in full mount in an mma fight. i still can't quite figure that one out, but it goes to show what solid strikes can set up.
 
I agree with what @Tkd10 , @kenji goh and @AndyMaBobs in their posts.

To add my two cents to this topic:

The Shihan at my Kyokushin gym always, always, ALWAYS emphasized keeping our hands up and our guards tight. Whenever I would let my hands drop he would wack me and let me know that's what I can expect every time I drop my hands. I would like to believe that most KK practitioners who have been around the KK block long enough know to keep a proper guard to protect their heads and faces.

Also, it's true about most KK fighters who move aggressively forward. Yes, a pretty bad habit PARTICULARLY if you suck at defending your face. My advice to counter act that tendency is to always use Sabaki and Tai Sabaki footwork and movements. This is how I prefer to do kumite. I just think it's so much smarter than the Typical Kyokushin Way.

Something else I prefer to do is take a page out of the Point Fighters' sparring plan and play the distance game the way that they do. I think that this too is smarter than your typical KK strategy.

Lastly, even if your KK gym doesn't train head movement doesn't mean that YOU cannot take the initiative to practice it yourself if you know it's an issue. You can join a boxing gym or do some head movement work with someone who does boxing. I think even shadowboxing with the express purpose of focusing on footwork, keeping your guard up and practicing head movement is better than nothing.

Just whatever you do, DO NOT try to learn head movement from Edmond Tarverdyan. "Head Movement, Head Movement, Head Movement, Noooooo"! :D
 
i managed to catch a bloke in a back choke while still in full mount in an mma fight. i still can't quite figure that one out, but it goes to show what solid strikes can set up.
I think I know this.

Escapes / sweep attempts were failing, so rather than eat bombs for the rest of the round, he gave up his back to work something from there even if it was a bad spot. To be fair, getting choked out and losing by tap out is much less damaging than eating full force strikes for X amount of time. The latter depending on how vicious, could leave you with facial reconstructive surgery.

inb4 pussy

Just whatever you do, DO NOT try to learn anything from Edmond Tarverdyan

Ronda gets lit up and tagged: You're doing great, she's scared of you!
 
As a former kyokushin guy I agree also.

It's a shame but unfortunately very true unless you go to the 1% of kyokushin gyms that also teach kickboxing or mt.

I learnt out the hard way - how static my head movement was when I started Kudo. I'm a bit luckier since I did another style before Kyokushin so I adapted pretty quick but I think the longer you do KK the longer those things start to become habits that are harder to break.

To put it simply - generally speaking - a student studying 1 year of MMA, MT, Kickboxing is going to be in a better position to fight or defend themselves than a student studying 1 year of KK.

A lot of kyokushin people don't acknowledge there is a problem and live in a bubble.

There is also the problem of learning so many things but making use of like 15% of what you're taught. People who have studied KK will know the stuff you do in kihon but never use in kumite or are never taught how to use in kumite - that I'm talking about.

That said it will make you into a very conditioned tough person but it's all kind of negated because all it takes is a good punch to the head to negate all that body conditioning & toughness.

Don't alot of the European Kyokushin champions already cross train in MT,Kickboxing,etc? Seems like alot of the Kyokushin clubs do that [The club my former Oyama Karate teacher came from had MT classes as well]
 
I agree to a certain extent....some of my thoughts from doing both Kyokushin & Muay Thai:

-Yes Kyokushin's weakness is the face punches
-Yes you will be in some serious trouble fighting a boxer/MT/KB

BUT...if you are an average joe, recreational guy

-The risk of injury to the head/face is drastically reduced
-You still have to block head level kicks, so some basic head and guard work will be taught
-You still get to train full contact without worrying about getting any head/face injuries

If you're worried about street fights, a good bare knuckled kyokushin punch right to the sternum, liver, solar plexus, is good enough to let your opponent know who they are messing with. It's easier to give a good body shot too.
Good point. From what I recall, Oyama used to have his pupils spar bare-fist full-contact with head punches but quickly realized he'd lose most followers pretty soon, with all the injuries. He didn't want to use any protective gear, so instead he banned head punches. Was that the optimal solution? Maybe not, but that was what de decided.

Every martial art has its shortcomings due to competition rules. Every martial art has its pros and cons. Taking the pros and discarding the cons from various arts will make you a better fighter, simple as that.

Finally, if its for health and fun and not MMA, then who really cares about the cons?
 
I agree with what @Tkd10 , @kenji goh and @AndyMaBobs in their posts.

To add my two cents to this topic:

The Shihan at my Kyokushin gym always, always, ALWAYS emphasized keeping our hands up and our guards tight. Whenever I would let my hands drop he would wack me and let me know that's what I can expect every time I drop my hands. I would like to believe that most KK practitioners who have been around the KK block long enough know to keep a proper guard to protect their heads and faces.

Also, it's true about most KK fighters who move aggressively forward. Yes, a pretty bad habit PARTICULARLY if you suck at defending your face. My advice to counter act that tendency is to always use Sabaki and Tai Sabaki footwork and movements. This is how I prefer to do kumite. I just think it's so much smarter than the Typical Kyokushin Way.

Something else I prefer to do is take a page out of the Point Fighters' sparring plan and play the distance game the way that they do. I think that this too is smarter than your typical KK strategy.

Lastly, even if your KK gym doesn't train head movement doesn't mean that YOU cannot take the initiative to practice it yourself if you know it's an issue. You can join a boxing gym or do some head movement work with someone who does boxing. I think even shadowboxing with the express purpose of focusing on footwork, keeping your guard up and practicing head movement is better than nothing.

Just whatever you do, DO NOT try to learn head movement from Edmond Tarverdyan. "Head Movement, Head Movement, Head Movement, Noooooo"! :D
GASP!
A Kyokushin guy advocating point-fighter tactics?!
<{danawhoah}>
:D
 
Is nice to see an honest Kyokushin guy , here is like a cult and they say oss out loud even in the street, also some tournaments are who goes straight and kicks more powerful wins, not much technique.

About ground and pound I love it and at least for the street foind gorilla punches super useful, is natural for me.
 
I agree with what @Tkd10 , @kenji goh and @AndyMaBobs in their posts.

To add my two cents to this topic:

The Shihan at my Kyokushin gym always, always, ALWAYS emphasized keeping our hands up and our guards tight. Whenever I would let my hands drop he would wack me and let me know that's what I can expect every time I drop my hands. I would like to believe that most KK practitioners who have been around the KK block long enough know to keep a proper guard to protect their heads and faces.

Also, it's true about most KK fighters who move aggressively forward. Yes, a pretty bad habit PARTICULARLY if you suck at defending your face. My advice to counter act that tendency is to always use Sabaki and Tai Sabaki footwork and movements. This is how I prefer to do kumite. I just think it's so much smarter than the Typical Kyokushin Way.

Something else I prefer to do is take a page out of the Point Fighters' sparring plan and play the distance game the way that they do. I think that this too is smarter than your typical KK strategy.

Lastly, even if your KK gym doesn't train head movement doesn't mean that YOU cannot take the initiative to practice it yourself if you know it's an issue. You can join a boxing gym or do some head movement work with someone who does boxing. I think even shadowboxing with the express purpose of focusing on footwork, keeping your guard up and practicing head movement is better than nothing.

A lot of Kyokushin instructors emphasize keeping your hands up and your guard tight. But that doesn't equate to proper punching defense - also from my experience most instructors say to keep your hands up so you can guard properly against head kicks - although your shihan might be different.

Sadly I don't think a lot of KK guys do know how to protect their heads and faces very well - well enough for knockdown that's about it. I think there is this false sense of security among Kyokushin practitioners that they can. You only really find out when you cross-over and try out other styles - something that the kyokushin practitioners I've come across don't do.

I agree with you though that it's smarter to follow the point fighting game plan of keeping distance if you do KK and are in mma/kickboxing/mt/kudo sparring. But unfortunately you aren't really going to do that better than a point fighter or a mt/kickboxer/mma/kudo guy that fights from a distance. There's also the issue of what happens when someone bridges the distance.

Not to take away from Kyokushin. It has it's pros - conditioning, mentality & kicks.

Also with the kyokushin instructors teaching kickboxing or MT. I'd personally prefer to learn from an MT or kickboxing instructor. Some kyokushin instructors do have kickboxing or MT experience - many don't though. Plus I think the level of instruction you'll get at an MT/kickboxing place will probably be better.

Personally I feel like to each his own but I think it's important to point out issues with styles. MT & kickboxing have their faults to. I feel though that these are kyokushin's faults.

Although that's part of the reason I stopped training kyokushin - it wasn't the main factor. I think the bigger problem with KK is that 30% of content all instructors know inside & out - the other 70% is nonsense. I don't think it's the fault of instructors - I think Mas Oyama had no idea what he was doing. Read his book - Mas Oyama's Karate - and you'd roll your eyes at some of the shit that's been written.
 
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