Lets talk about the Philly Shell in thai/kb

[Frode Falch]

How many here like to use the philly shell? I like to experiment with it during playfull sparring. But i doubt i would ever use it in a real fight with kicks.

That being said: I think it could be useful after the right training. What do you think?

Probably been done before. But lets talk about the philly shell.

 

[Phlog]

If kicks are above the waist and I'm the taller fighter (both these are usually true) then I for one am a fan.

As a defence it seems real solid, I think it's a viable strategy inside when kicks are less likely.

It keeps your eyes unimpeded when compared to shelling up too.

It's fast becoming something I do to make things fun, a sign of me being relaxed. Like some people showboat.

Also, in kickboxing, regionally at least, people don't usually see it or prepare for it.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

The side stance w/ the philly hand positioning was used heavily in above the waist kickboxing. Bill Wallace's use of the side stance with lead arm down is probably the most popular example.

I don't like the hand positioning when I'm approaching a squarer stance as it's harder to block up and parry teeps. Stance is hard to use against someone in MT as they'll be trying to constantly kick your legs from under you. It is something I'll switch in and out of from time to time just to see how my sparring partner deals with it.

 

[Frode Falch]

Who coached you in the PS defense? And how do you train it?

 

[bowlie]

Yeah that kind of style is used in TKD lots too. Im not a fan though. Im actively trying to avoid using it in training, despite that making it harder for myself.

 

[Frode Falch]

I am slowly starting to feel that this type of defense if superior to that double guard, "crazy monkey style", or whatever you call the normal high guard.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Yeah that kind of style is used in TKD lots too. Im not a fan though. Im actively trying to avoid using it in training, despite that making it harder for myself.

I think most TKD guys take the side stance even further to where they can't throw a rear arm straight/cross. They will also keep their rear hand at chest level or lower. But with that stance TKD can throw spinning kicks, front leg kicks and lead hand jabs with ease; Everything else not so much.

I think a lot of people share your sentiment about the side stance and it's application and I'd agree 90% of the time.

 

[monkeyrhythm]

If you've got leg kicks, definitely not; you'll get your lead leg destroyed.
As has already been said, it's an interesting variation for above the waist kickboxing that has been used to good effect in the past. It's particularly good if you're a strong front leg kicker.

 

[Ignoramus]

You can pull it off, but you'll have to square your stance up a bit more than you would for boxing. And it works better if you check with your knee than with your shins, since it's faster and requires less external rotation.

Coming from a boxing background, the shoulder roll was my go to defense, and I'd get a lot of flack for using it in Muay Thai. Definitely ate a lot of leg kicks at nasty angles in the beginning of the learning process.

The key is knowing when the punches are coming and when the kicks are coming.

A good understanding of the different ranges of striking is vital, as the shoulder roll-based defense works better in the mid-range AKA in the pocket, as it does in boxing.

That said, I'm still working on integrating it with kicks and messing around with some moves.

Really like the reverse, upward elbow readily available from the low-lead hand position. Slip the jab, elbow, right cross is money IMO.

Your body isn't as exposed on the side of your lead arm cause it's shelled around your body, and you can bait a kick there for a counter right hand like you typically would with a punch there.

I've even seen Giorgio Petrosyan shoulder roll a body kick and fire a counter back with the lead hand down.

Trying to see if you could actually shoulder roll a head kick by raising the elbow to chin height and bending at the hip more in the roll. Seems a lot better than blocking a head kick with the traditional high guard.

Edit: It's important to note that like any guard, you don't want to rely solely on it and remain static. Even Floyd Mayweather switches between 3-4 guards to mix it up.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Trying to see if you could actually shoulder roll a head kick by raising the elbow to chin height and bending at the hip more in the roll. Seems a lot better than blocking a head kick with the traditional high guard.

Edit: It's important to note that like any guard, you don't want to rely solely on it and remain static. Even Floyd Mayweather switches between 3-4 guards to mix it up.

That's an issue I've noticed with doing this; I'll slip towards my rear leg to avoid the kick and then they'll be on top of me. If I try to circle out from the slip I'm very vulnerable to leg kicks and to being off balanced if I return to upright they'll swarm with hooks.

 

[Ignoramus]

[YT]R49M3u_qUD4[/YT]

@ 10:37 Petrosyan rolls the body kick. Slick shit.

 

[Ignoramus]

That's an issue I've noticed with doing this; I'll slip towards my rear leg to avoid the kick and then they'll be on top of me. If I try to circle out from the slip I'm very vulnerable to leg kicks and to being off balanced if I return to upright they'll swarm with hooks.

I've noticed that even for boxing, if you use the shoulder roll without countering back, you're inviting them to come forward.

Roll the head kick and immediately follow-up with cross/rear kick, maybe?

 

[Frode Falch]

Y
Edit: It's important to note that like any guard, you don't want to rely solely on it and remain static. Even Floyd Mayweather switches between 3-4 guards to mix it up.

Yes i agree that this is very important. I like to change between many different ways to defend. And i think the shoulder roll is gonna be a new favourite for my personal style.

 

[Jukai]

Probably not as useful in kickboxing, but there was a fighter who posted here who used a form of the shell in MMA; he dealt with leg kicks by stepping into the leg kick to absorb the damage, catch the leg and trip them/take them down. It deterred the other fighter from throwing leg kicks.

Can't see how you would do that in kickboxing though, since you can't sweep with the arch of the foot... catching the kick with the left hand then stepping forward and chopping their left leg with your left leg to sweep them isn't exactly flid.

 

[a guy]

That's an issue I've noticed with doing this; I'll slip towards my rear leg to avoid the kick and then they'll be on top of me. If I try to circle out from the slip I'm very vulnerable to leg kicks and to being off balanced if I return to upright they'll swarm with hooks.

Try using your lead leg to throw a side kick. Throw it to the body if you have the space, to the leg if you're in close. You can also step in and elbow with the lead arm. Mayweather does this, but unlike him you can actually use it as a strike.

I think the defense is more applicable to MMA than kickboxing. Two things that really make it more valid are having versatile lead leg kicks and the ability to catch all kinds of kicks. Not putting work into those two areas makes that style much harder to use.

 

[Phlog]

Try using your lead leg to throw a side kick. Throw it to the body if you have the space, to the leg if you're in clos@e. You can also step in and elbow with the lead arm. Mayweather does this, but unlike him you can actually use it as a strike.

I think the defense is more applicable to MMA than kickboxing. Two things that really make it more valid are having versatile lead leg kicks and the ability to catch all kinds of kicks. Not putting work into those two areas makes that style much harder to use.

In kickboxing where no elbow is allowed and there are no low kicks: the sidekick is great but is a medium-long range move and is more useful when anticipating the advance rather than as a response to it.

I think that the go to responses to a continuing attack, while implementing the shoulder roll, are the same as in boxing. It's something I'm barely beginning to look into but isn't it prudent to counter and engage or pivot off? Counters are set up, left hook, right straight, right upper etc.

Is it that it's a more defensive posture and so necessitates a strong counter emphasis to get them to stop attacking?

I've been wondering about the counters to use off the shoulder roll.

 

[RemyR]

I'd just feel real uncomfortable doing this against a southpaw with solid lead leg and head kicks.

 

[ssullivan80]

I'd just feel real uncomfortable doing this against a southpaw with solid lead leg and head kicks.

strangely enough, that's exactly when I prefer to use a narrower bladed stance when kickboxing. It gives me more time to see that kick coming and keeps them further out of range. In kickboxing against sp's I transition into this stance when I begin circling into their left at range (power side for the SP), i find it baits them into reaching for their left cross or left roundkick (what I anticipate) and that extra space created by the bladed stance gives me time to counter off either. For the kick, i go into the kick, short lateral step or pivot and lean into it (Sheild/jam it up)...... this leaves me in between their guard, with them squared up and I can get off 3-4 shots as they scramble to recover and regain balance. If I time it well enough and they really reach for that kick, one of my very favorite counters is to just pull back and throw a lead leg high kick...... I get SPs with this kick consistently and it doesn't take much if timed well as they are leaning into it.

If I am baiting them into the cross I'll take a subtle lateral step and get a bit more square, keeping my weight back, they can't help themselves from throwing that cross and I just pull back counter it with my lead UC...... Tough to really explain, but it works really well for me.

Video clips may help illustrate this. First one is the kick counter mentioned, this is not typically the result but this one just happened to be timed just right against a lazy kick. Second clip is the lead UC cross counter, but basically it illustrates the squaring up and subtle lateral step that baits that cross and UC counter (in slo mo). Usually that UC is much stiffer if they throw the cross high vs at the body (as in clip).





Here's an old sparring clip with same guy (8yrs ago). You can see how that bladed narrow stance can be tricky for a sp to adjust to, it makes everything kind of awkward. He got the idea towards the end, started crowding and throwing leg kicks and catching my kick at the end. That said, these tricks wouldn't work on him anymore........ it would be awful dangerous as he's wise to it and knows how to exploit it.

 

[Phlog]

Nice!

 

[SummerStriker]

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