Longsword vs Katana, Rapier vs Scimitar, CUTTING VS THRUSTING?

Irenaeus said:
That folding technique is mind-boggingly impressive (to me at least). It's an incredible testament to the skill and resourcefullness of japanese swordssmiths that they were able to create good weaponry from so inferior raw materials.

It seems like European swordsmiths had a far easier time making a good blade, due to the widely available high-quality ore.
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Spain especially has historically been known for having fine steel.
 
Interesting, thanks for the answers again. Yeah Im assuming 1095 is a popular one too, Ive had quite a few knives made of 1095.

In the car world, as far as strength goes, a forged billet piece is top of the line. People look at it seperately sometimes as like for example: cast, forged, and billet. You can forge a billet slab and then machine out the part you need. You see alot of that type thing on the reallll fast/powerful cars(Top Fuel, Top Alcohol, etc).

Anyway, I hear that spring steels get their flexibility from silicon content, which is usually .2-2%. What properties would it take on if you were to increase the silicon content even more?

Also, how would "Damascus" steel compare to modern spring steel in terms of flexibilty, strength, edge holding, and weight? Even though Damascus sounds amazing, I have a hard time believing it would hold a candle to a newer, modern day leaf spring steel as far as strength/flexibility, could be wrong though. I wouldnt be TOO surprised as researchers recently have found carbon nanotubes in damascus steel. :eek:

And lastly, what would usually be the outcome of a scuffle between 2 evenly armored/fairly evenly skilled opponents, on foot, one armed with a longsword, and the other with a spear, or any type of thrusting polearm really?? I would assume the polearm guy but then again Im not well versed in the arts and dont know if it was particularly easy to get inside and close the distance on a dismounted soldier carrying a polearm.
 
Damascus is applied to two things. The first is a process of pattern welding whereby different types of iron bars are twisted and welded together. This produces a beautiful wavy pattern, and experienced smiths can use this to create certain patterns. The second applies to wootz steel. We do not know the process by which wootz was created..it seems to have been lost in the 1700s. Wootz also produced the same lovely wavy lines that were found in pattern welded steel.

The fact is though, for all the myths surrounding it, damascus steel is still inferior to the steels we can make today. Since it was expensive and famed for its beautiful patterns, the steel was often given to the best smiths to work. It was because of this that Damascus steel weapons acquired thier reputations, not because it was super steel.

As for polearms vs. swords..IMHO the spear/polearm dude has the advantage.
 
Wow, I'm an idiot for having avoided this thread for so long; it's a pretty good introduction into blade smithing and bladed martial arts.
 
*-Damascus steel (Wootz) was made with a higher carbon content that usually spells doom for sword metal but somehow the old technique which has been lost imparted flexibility and hardness. Carbon nanotubes have been found under electron microscopy (source) which were likely the result of additional trace elements in the ore or added in the smelting process from plant sources. Vanadium seems to be the key 'impurity' to impart superplasticity to Wootz steel.

Wootz outperformed contemporary metals at the time with excellent edge-holding capabilities and flexibility (source) but it is still inferior to modern 'lab created' steels.


As for a sword vs. spear/polearm-- all things equal, a spear should win due to the reach advantage. There are many techniques to defeat an opponent with a longer-reach weapon (in my ryu some are: tozon machiwaza (outside deflect and spin), arashigata onmoro (outside step-in flank), and sayaki bunageru (throwing of the steel sheath). However, with all things equal, reach will win out. Shogun Rua is a far more accomplished striker than Jon Bones Jones yet Jones was able to dictate the standup by using range.




As for modern spring steel, Zombie Tools uses it exclusively for their blades and look what it took to destroy one:

 
Wow! That thing is the best representation I know of for "indestructible". Good lord, I have never seen a blade hold up to that sort of work and not to mention being able to return true after being bent 90 degrees or more!

But yeah, I kinda figured Damascus wouldnt be as good as what we have now, considering the technological/metallurgy difference. Do you think the flexibility and yield strength would be on par with a modern spring steel though?

Was it common for fights to happen between a swordsman and polearm-wielder back then?

Also, was the sword considered the best all-around weapon to defeat enemies using many different types of weapons(mace, axe, etc)? Of course, the bow/crossbow would probably be the best bet. But what if armor was involved, maille or plate or both? How would the bow/crossbow do then?
 
how has nobody posted this yet?
 
Urban said:
how has nobody posted this yet?
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Its pretty biased and inaccurate. Neither should be used for blade to armor contact and we don't know the quality of the swords. R. Lee Ermey is an awesome guy a real man's man but not a swordfighter.

For starters no katana has a 36" blade. 28" is standard katana length. 36" increases the weight greatly and reclassifies the sword as a tachi or nodachi. If you notice Gunny is using the strong part of the blade (close to the hilt) to cut the ice. You use the weak part (3-4 inches from the tip) to cut.

Truth is katana and European swords are pretty much equal its really the user and the intent of its use that separates them.

Twenty years of kenjutsu for me hence I prefer Japanese blades. Some ARMA guy would prolly prefer a rapier or hand and a half sword. To each his own.
 
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Urban said:
how has nobody posted this yet?
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Sweetdadysikki in 3....2...1...



I don't know if there is a superior sword, but I know that I love the longsword stuff that this dude posts.
 
That video always makes me laugh. Firstly the swords they are using are cheap (as in less than 300 dollars) replicas. The longsword is waaaaaaaaay too flexible, which means it cannot cut or thrust very well at all. Real longswords are quite stiff. The katana is a 'sword like object'. A real Katana must be forged according to exact rules and will come with papers from the NBTHK attesting to its authenticity. A cheap replica ground from stock steel into a Katana-like shape is NOT a Katana. And finally, Lee emery can't cut worth a damn :). Its unwise to trust infotainment.

Anyways marceloISbest, swords are generally a kind of sidearm on the battlefield, whereas polearms and spears are the assault weapons. But yes, the longsword and the polearms did get used against one another, especially during judicial combat. Swords had alot more prestige perhaps, because only nobles and the wealthy had the time and money needed to train in them. Swords are difficult to use. A sword (especially a double edged sword) in the hands of an untrained person is almost more deadly to the user than it is to the enemy.
 
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SweetDaddySiki said:
That video always makes me laugh. Firstly the swords they are using are cheap (as in less than 300 dollars) replicas. The longsword is waaaaaaaaay too flexible, which means it cannot cut or thrust very well at all. Real longswords are quite stiff. The katana is a 'sword like object'. A real Katana must be forged according to exact rules and will come with papers from the NBTHK attesting to its authenticity. A cheap replica ground from stock steel into a Katana-like shape is NOT a Katana. And finally, Lee emery can't cut worth a damn :). Its unwise to trust infotainment.

Anyways marceloISbest, swords are generally a kind of sidearm on the battlefield, whereas polearms and spears are the assault weapons. But yes, the longsword and the polearms did get used against one another, especially during judicial combat. Swords had alot more prestige perhaps, because only nobles and the wealthy had the time and money needed to train in them. Swords are difficult to use. A sword (especially a double edged sword) in the hands of an untrained person is almost more deadly to the user than it is to the enemy.
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I'll vouch for that firsthand. I have seen a couple of really severe leg wounds from someone doing kata with a live blade. One was a rookie but the other was a shin kage ryu practitioner that had ten years under his belt. Also have seen three lost fingers when a relatively new practitioner lost his sword during a kata and he reached out to grab it as it spun to the ground.
 
Damn, thats nuts. But yeah Ive seen that vid before and thought it was quite dumb. So pre-gunpowder, polearms and bows/crossbows were the dominant handheld weapons on the battlefield? I read up on the ballista, which seems like a helluva piece. Pretty much a mounted heavy duty crossbow.

What was more dominant and preferable between a crossbow and a longbow? Also, what had a better chance at penetrating plate/maille between cross/longbow?

How would an English longbow compare to a modern compound bow? And how would older/modern arrowheads compare and which would be preferable for defeating plate and maille? Just for reference, Ive seen someone shoot a modern broadhead through both sides of metal 55gal drum using a compound though theres probably no comparison between a metal drum and even old plate armour.
 
I'm not bow expert, but bows have a better rate of fire, crossbows hit harder and are easier to use. Modern bows are vastly superior to the English longbow. Bows have a difficult time penetrating armour. Turkish Chroniclers were often remarked how the crusaders would charge right through an arrow storm and hit the turks while having a dozen arrows sticking out of thier mail armour. The Longbow also has a difficult time penetrating armour. Most arrows were soft iron as steel was still rare and precious. The French at Agincourt weren't killed by arrows, but in melee after an exhausting march through deep mud. That being said, being hit by an arrow in armour is still like being hit by a very fast baseball, so it is painful and bruising.
 
SweetDaddySiki said:
Damascus is applied to two things. The first is a process of pattern welding whereby different types of iron bars are twisted and welded together. This produces a beautiful wavy pattern, and experienced smiths can use this to create certain patterns. The second applies to wootz steel. We do not know the process by which wootz was created..it seems to have been lost in the 1700s. Wootz also produced the same lovely wavy lines that were found in pattern welded steel.

The fact is though, for all the myths surrounding it, damascus steel is still inferior to the steels we can make today. Since it was expensive and famed for its beautiful patterns, the steel was often given to the best smiths to work. It was because of this that Damascus steel weapons acquired thier reputations, not because it was super steel.

As for polearms vs. swords..IMHO the spear/polearm dude has the advantage.
Click to expand...

Not quite lost anymore. A few years ago, a Materials specialist and Blacksmith got together and recreated the old wootz/damascus. Found this out from knife maker I train with. I don't ever expect to see it mass marketed though.

From much training experience, the polearm/spear has the edge. the sword has get to close and past the weapon to attack, will polearm/spear just has to keep the point end between them and is safe from counter attack.
 
barnowl said:
Not quite lost anymore. A few years ago, a Materials specialist and Blacksmith got together and recreated the old wootz/damascus. Found this out from knife maker I train with. I don't ever expect to see it mass marketed though.

From much training experience, the polearm/spear has the edge. the sword has get to close and past the weapon to attack, will polearm/spear just has to keep the point end between them and is safe from counter attack.
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J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch.


Master Swordsmith Daniel Watson of Angel Sword also has a Techno-Wootz steel that is quite excellent. Some of the best steel you will find.

http://www.angelsword.com/index.php
 
Yield (engineering) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see on this chart, piano wire has the 3rd highest ultimate strength overall behind Carbon Fiber and UHMWPE and the highest of all the metals. It is made of A228 high carbon spring steel usually.

Ive looked at and admired Mission Knives quite a bit, with their Ti blades. They show alot of vids/pics demonstrating the plasticity and toughness of the titanium blades. With that said, how does Ti and Ti alloys compare to Carbon spring steels in flexibility/strength?


Also, the military uses Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot rounds to take out enemy tanks at over 2000m, depending on atmospheric conditions, but detailed specs are classified. Anyway, these rounds are basically long, narrow darts made of Depleted Uranium. Would it make it easier to penetrate plate if the sword, spear-point, or arrowhead were made of DU? Kind of a crazy question, I know, and it would most likely be much much heavier, just wondering if there would be any difference in armor penetration having the weapon or point made of something so dense?

This is what they look like:
M829 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
marceloISbest said:
Yield (engineering) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see on this chart, piano wire has the 3rd highest ultimate strength overall behind Carbon Fiber and UHMWPE and the highest of all the metals. It is made of A228 high carbon spring steel usually.

Ive looked at and admired Mission Knives quite a bit, with their Ti blades. They show alot of vids/pics demonstrating the plasticity and toughness of the titanium blades. With that said, how does Ti and Ti alloys compare to Carbon spring steels in flexibility/strength?


Also, the military uses Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot rounds to take out enemy tanks at over 2000m, depending on atmospheric conditions, but detailed specs are classified. Anyway, these rounds are basically long, narrow darts made of Depleted Uranium. Would it make it easier to penetrate plate if the sword, spear-point, or arrowhead were made of DU? Kind of a crazy question, I know, and it would most likely be much much heavier, just wondering if there would be any difference in armor penetration having the weapon or point made of something so dense?

This is what they look like:
M829 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Guy I have no idea. These questions are insane. I can cut 16 tatame with one stroke I don't know shit about depleted uranium except its really dense. :)
 
It just makes me wonder because Lead is also very dense, yet so soft that it probably wouldnt do much. The reason that rifle bullets are copper jacketed now is because lead starts to vaporize and come apart when shot with a muzzle velocity above 2000 ft/s. I wonder if DU would act any differently? Seeing as how tanks have MV`s above 5000 ft/s, I assume it holds up quite well.
 
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