Michael Gerson on rightwing Evangelicalism

[Neph]

No where in the bible, no where, does it explicitly state that slavery is wrong. Not in the OT, not in the NT, no where. Any Christian that is anti-slavery is so for reasons that cannot be supported by scripture.

Correct. As above, the NT provides explicit instructions for slaves and how to act (with full respect to their masters).

Anyone that says the OT doesn't apply anymore is not only flat out wrong they are also guilty of cherry picking. I imagine that God created the Earth? Well, that's OT. What about original sin? Also OT, and crucial for the NT story of Jesus to make sense. 10 commandments? Well should we throw them out too because they are OT?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I'm not sure why there's such a huge contradiction in the book either. It's also not my problem since I don't subscribe to it.

Further more, the specific overrides the general. The vague passages that talk about treating people well do not in any way invalidate the specific instructions on how one is to conduct their slavery.

The rule to let your slave go after 6 years is for your hebrew slaves. There is no such provision for non jewish slaves. Plus, there are all sorts of ways to get around the 6 year limit so that you can enslave the hebrews too, for life. Making them, along with your non hebrew slaves, your property which can be handed down to your children.

Did you miss the part where we are brothers in Christ - there is no more Jew and Gentile.

So in your mind do unto others doesn't apply to slavery? Further you are saying that you'd put your own mother into slavery.

For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.​

[QUOTE ]
No where in the bible, no where, does it explicitly state that slavery is wrong. Not in the OT, not in the NT, no where. Any Christian that is anti-slavery is so for reasons that cannot be supported by scripture.[/QUOTE]

And whoever stealeth a man and sells him shall surely be put to death.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Correct. As above, the NT provides explicit instructions for slaves and how to act (with full respect to their masters).

Anyone that says the OT doesn't apply anymore is not only flat out wrong they are also guilty of cherry picking. I imagine that God created the Earth? Well, that's OT. What about original sin? Also OT, and crucial for the NT story of Jesus to make sense. 10 commandments? Well should we throw them out too because they are OT?

Oh so telling a slave to show respect to his master for the sake of the faith is an endorsement now?

 

[Neph]

Oh so telling a slave to show respect to his master for the sake of the faith is an endorsement now?

What kind of mental gymnastics can being a slave be 'for the sake of the faith'. It sounds morally repugnant to me and continues the same condoning from the OT, where it provides instructions on how to beat your slave with a rod and how long they can live for before dying and you get away with it.

Yes, it's wrong. It condones slavery in both testaments, both of which stand.

Even if the NT specified a change in direction it would still be God telling people it's okay to beat your slave to death. It's reprehensible.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.a 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.b 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[ShadBo]

Did you miss the part where we are brothers in Christ - there is no more Jew and Gentile.

So in your mind do unto others doesn't apply to slavery? Further you are saying that you'd put your own mother into slavery.

For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.​

No where in the bible, no where, does it explicitly state that slavery is wrong. Not in the OT, not in the NT, no where. Any Christian that is anti-slavery is so for reasons that cannot be supported by scripture.

And whoever stealeth a man and sells him shall surely be put to death.

The fact that these contradictions exist is not my problem.

Again, the general does not trump the specific. The specific laws of slavery over rule the general vague pieces you're bringing up. God commanded that we don't eat shellfish, mix fabrics, kill, or covet, but he did not command that we do not own people as property.

 

[Quequeg]

The fact that these contradictions exist is not my problem.

Again, the general does not trump the specific. The specific laws of slavery over rule the general vague pieces you're bringing up. God commanded that we don't eat shellfish, mix fabrics, kill, or covet, but he did not command that we do not own people as property.

So by your admission some parts of the bible are nonsense?

 

[Neph]

So by your admission some parts of the bible are nonsense?

I get the feeling that ShadBo thinks the whole thing is nonsense....

 

[Quequeg]

I get the feeling that ShadBo thinks the whole thing is nonsense....

If so, my apologies to ShadBo.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

I must say that as a Christian I am deeply troubled by the NT's condoning of slavery. I've been told by fellow Christians that abolishing slavery is the logical conclusion of Christian principles, but I wish it was more explicit...

 

[Deleted member 159002]

What kind of mental gymnastics can being a slave be 'for the sake of the faith'. It sounds morally repugnant to me and continues the same condoning from the OT, where it provides instructions on how to beat your slave with a rod and how long they can live for before dying and you get away with it.

Yes, it's wrong. It condones slavery in both testaments, both of which stand.

Even if the NT specified a change in direction it would still be God telling people it's okay to beat your slave to death. It's reprehensible.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.a 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.b 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Regarding whether or not the Law applies, your interpretation of Jesus's statement is faulty. Right in the Gospels and Acts we see aspects of the Law being jettisoned (Sabbath, kosher). Then after Paul's conversion, we are told that someone cannot be justified by works of the Law, and that if he tries to be he's fallen from grace.

 

[Neph]

I must say that as a Christian I am deeply troubled by the NT's condoning of slavery. I've been told by fellow Christians that abolishing slavery is the logical conclusion of Christian principles, but I wish it was more explicit...

The easiest way is to relieve yourself of constantly having to defend something that we all know is wrong. You can do it by understanding that the Bible was written by people a long time after Jesus' time and is highly fallible.

It might be a scary trip down to Atheism or maybe just a relaxation of fundamentalism/literal interpretation.

PS did you know that the Old Testament had God summoning holy bears to ravage children for calling a prophet bald? Yeah. Serious! Read your Bible, it's actually really crazy...

 

[Soul Crusher]

Why wouldn't God tell people how to treat their slaves and tell slaves how to act? Especially during a time when slavery was acceptable.

Different time, different culture and customs.

Do you really think God had a problem with slavery being abolished?

Fast forward to today, should a boss treat his workers like crap? Should workers defy their boss and do whatever they like?

 

[Soul Crusher]

The easiest way is to relieve yourself of constantly having to defend something that we all know is wrong. You can do it by understanding that the Bible was written by people a long time after Jesus' time and is highly fallible.

It might be a scary trip down to Atheism or maybe just a relaxation of fundamentalism/literal interpretation.

PS did you know that the Old Testament had God summoning holy bears to ravage children for calling a prophet bald? Yeah. Serious! Read your Bible, it's actually really crazy...

2 Kings 2
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Mathew 13
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Tare is an injurious weed resembling wheat when young.

2 Timothy 3:13

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2 Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[hillelslovak87]

They aren't evidence that the people were being cheated? Then we're would one find such evidence?

I know will take hillelslovak word for it. Lol

You don't need to take my word for the Mishna and Bible not being used as corroborating proof for anything here in reality for scholars. You made the positive claim, and have failed to prove it.

You're right the used incarceration rates, life expectancy, and income equality. Way to gloss yourself.

Creighton, the UN studies, they elucidate the same clear trend. Religiosity correlates with a society worsening in a wide host of quality of life metrics.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Why wouldn't God tell people how to treat their slaves and tell slaves how to act? Especially during a time when slavery was acceptable.

Different time, different culture and customs.

Do you really think God had a problem with slavery being abolished?

Fast forward to today, should a boss treat his workers like crap? Should workers defy their boss and do whatever they like?

Either slavery is wrong, or it is right. Humans decided for ourselves, directly int he face of the bible, that it was to be abolished. God was wrong on the question of slavery.

You can't claim God's goodness then make excuses for him left and right, and expect anyone to take your immorality seriously.

 

[mcveteran81]

Lol always a good time when non-believers start quoting scripture.

Ecclesiastes's 12 : 14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

That applies to everyone both saved and not saved. The difference is saved people will be spared from hell, while the unsaved are judged and condemned.

As far as I can tell there's allot of fools posting as if they were wise in this thread. Good times.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

What kind of mental gymnastics can being a slave be 'for the sake of the faith'. It sounds morally repugnant to me and continues the same condoning from the OT, where it provides instructions on how to beat your slave with a rod and how long they can live for before dying and you get away with it.

Yes, it's wrong. It condones slavery in both testaments, both of which stand.

Even if the NT specified a change in direction it would still be God telling people it's okay to beat your slave to death. It's reprehensible.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.a 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.b 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It doesn't say to be a slave fot the sake of the faith - it says to be obedient and faithful so that the master doesn't blame the religion. You have to remember that many were still highly suspicious of this new religion.

If you can't glean slavery is a no-no from do unto others then it doesn't matter what I or anyone else might say.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Why wouldn't God tell people how to treat their slaves and tell slaves how to act? Especially during a time when slavery was acceptable.

Different time, different culture and customs.

Do you really think God had a problem with slavery being abolished?

Fast forward to today, should a boss treat his workers like crap? Should workers defy their boss and do whatever they like?

The problem is that Christianity is supposed to teach universal morality, not relativism. Take fornication (sex outside of marriage). The apostles repeatedly condemned it. Fornication didn't get a "that's just the way things are" pass. I've come to really struggle with how the NT strongly condemns nommarital consensual sex but condones slavery. It's the exact opposite of how I feel.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

The fact that these contradictions exist is not my problem.

Again, the general does not trump the specific. The specific laws of slavery over rule the general vague pieces you're bringing up. God commanded that we don't eat shellfish, mix fabrics, kill, or covet, but he did not command that we do not own people as property.

That sounds like a pretty specific passage.

As for "how to beat your slave" it sound more like an admonishment to treat your slaves well - if you beat him to death there will be consequences.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

You don't need to take my word for the Mishna and Bible not being used as corroborating proof for anything here in reality for scholars. You made the positive claim, and have failed to prove it.



Creighton, the UN studies, they elucidate the same clear trend. Religiosity correlates with a society worsening in a wide host of quality of life metrics.

You made the negative claim and sited zero evidence. I mean you could at least post 1 scholar that supports your notion, but I doubt you'll find even 1 to make such an ignorant claim.

You see what you want from that study, fact is that poorer people have worse lives and poorer people hold on to their religion tightly because it's the 1 thing they do have.