Mighty Mouse and TJ Will fight and It will be close

[Deleted member 478803]

Mighty Mouse signed a contract, doesn't bring in ANY viewers, and the UFC isn't asking him to do anything extra -- just defend his belt in his own weight class.

The argument that this is somehow the UFC's fault for not wanting to give their lowest draw an extra wheelbarrow filled with cash just to do his already agreed upon job is a joke.

 

[acannxr]

When you say Champion.. You just mean anyone that wins a belt? Or someone who actually helps the company? As Daniel likes to say there is levels to this shit.

For instance why do you think Conor makes more?

Give me a range; let's say minimum percentage (i.e. Johnson) and a maximum percentage (i.e. McGregor); X% to X% of the PPV revenue.

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

Give me a range; let's say minimum percentage (i.e. Johnson) and a maximum percentage (i.e. McGregor); X% to X% of the PPV revenue.

I'd have to look into the numbers look into the books figure out the debt to sales.. Know who's fighting on the card.. How much revenue might be made and all to give a fair assesment..

I will say Conor should make more and i think he does.. I will say Tj and Cody deserve more for keeping thigs so interesting and i think they do.. As far as numbers i've not crunched a book so i'm not willing to go on paper going ah he deserves this much and not a penny more..

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

True or false: TJ moving down is more fair than DJ moving up

True or false: DJ fans would be butthurt either way

 

[acannxr]

I'd have to look into the numbers look into the books figure out the debt to sales.. Know who's fighting on the card.. How much revenue might be made and all to give a fair assesment..

I will say Conor should make more and i think he does.. I will say Tj and Cody deserve more for keeping thigs so interesting and i think they do.. As far as numbers i've not crunched a book so i'm not willing to go on paper going ah he deserves this much and not a penny more..

Then how do you know Johnson is pricing himself out? You self-admittedly don't know what he (nor anyone else) deserves.

True or false: TJ moving down is more fair than DJ moving up

True or false: DJ fans would be butthurt either way

I think that if the UFC offered to pay Johnson $2 million, but only if the fight was at Bantamweight, that Johnson would accept those terms. Johnson went 14-2 at Bantamweight while only training twice per week while working a full time factory job, yet people have the nerve to say he's afraid of that weight class <45>.

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

Then how do you know Johnson is pricing himself out? You self-admittedly don't know what he (nor anyone else) deserves.


I think that if the UFC offered to pay Johnson $2 million, but only if the fight was at Bantamweight, that Johnson would accept those terms. Johnson went 14-2 at Bantamweight while only training twice per week while working a full time factory job, yet people have the nerve to say he's afraid of that weight class <45>.

LMAO is that what u tried to do is use my words against me? LUL.. look kid.. I told u i'd have to crunch the numbers.. I was hoping you would provide me with those to actually call me out.. U didn't.. So nice try..

I did crunch a bit.. I think i seen where he sold like 120k at one event.. 65 bucks a pop.. that was like 7.8 million.. Whatever seat sales venue price price of other fighters on the card.. Does the venue get food and beverage sales..

lets keep it simple he makes 7.8 so u give him 2.. That leave u makeing 5.8 you still got to pay Dillishaw what did he want? Another 2 or so.. So now your down to making 3.8... We still got other things to pay.. and whatever else.. Naaaa not worth it kid.. Let him fight for the 330k or whatever he makes stick him on the same card as the guy he was suppose to fight and let hit open up for him..

So now minus his 330k off the same 7.8 million and TJ's 2 Million he deserves.. ANd wow I made alot more money and still got both the fighters on the card.. God damn i'm good.

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

Then how do you know Johnson is pricing himself out? You self-admittedly don't know what he (nor anyone else) deserves.


I think that if the UFC offered to pay Johnson $2 million, but only if the fight was at Bantamweight, that Johnson would accept those terms. Johnson went 14-2 at Bantamweight while only training twice per week while working a full time factory job, yet people have the nerve to say he's afraid of that weight class <45>.

Why pay him 2 million at Bantamweight when i can pay him way less or so at the weight he is in.. And still book him on the same card as he could of been on fighting for more money at the weight he is? Where is that logic?

 

[MikeMcMann]

If you can always over price yourself and make excuses then there is no worries anyway right?

And that is the problem here.

if a Champ has a contract in place that covers him fighting the contenders who make weight in his division as put forth by the UFC that champ should not be able to look at a contender, say 'oh that could be a tough fight, I need more money than my contract or I won't take and you will have to give me an easier opponent and fight'.

That logic you guys want in place is just dumb as it can apply to any contender and not just someone dropping in weight if you say the Champ does not have to fight the contenders who make weight in his division and who are put forth and he can refuse via hiding behind a request for more money.

The times it is absolutely valid for a Champ to say 'no' unless there is more money put on the table is when they are asked to fight on short notice or asked to move outside their division for a super fight. Then the contract rate does not apply as the Champ is not obligated to take those fights. He is obligated to take the regularly put forth contenders within his division.

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

And that is the problem here.

if a Champ has a contract in place that covers him fighting the contenders who make weight in his division as put forth by the UFC that champ should not be able to look at a contender, say 'oh that could be a tough fight, I need more money than my contract or I won't take and you will have to give me an easier opponent and fight'.

That logic you guys want in place is just dumb as it can apply to any contender and not just someone dropping in weight if you say the Champ does not have to fight the contenders who make weight in his division and who are put forth and he can refuse via hiding behind a request for more money.

The times it is absolutely valid for a Champ to say 'no' unless there is more money put on the table is when they are asked to fight on short notice or asked to move outside their division for a super fight. Then the contract rate does not apply as the Champ is not obligated to take those fights. He is obligated to take the regularly put forth contenders within his division.

Create this whole defend or vacate and In term Titles and shit.. Then the whole idea of champions and belts are deflated.. it gets nasty going down that road.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Others didn't think Edgar looked small, everyone was aware that Edgar didn't cut weight because when he started fighting the Featherweight division didn't exist, just like everyone was aware that fighters like Johnson and Benavidez weren't natural Bantamweights (because Flyweight didn't exist). The Flyweight division has been in the UFC since 2012 and Dillashaw never moved down, and he never competed at 125 when he wrestled as a teenager, so there's no evidence that it's his natural weight class.

And whether these fighters who moved down wanted an immediate title shot or not, the UFC ensured that they made weight at least once before entertaining the possibility of giving them a title shot:
Cormier: 2 fights at LHW before title shot.
Machida: 2 fights at MW before title shot.
Sanchez: 2 fights at LW before title shot.
Pettis: 1 fight at FW before interim title shot (he missed weight for the interim title fight <Lmaoo>)
Florian: 1 fight at FW before title shot.
Moraga: 2 fights at FLW before title shot.
Horiguchi: 3 fights at FLW before title shot.

Even Jake Shields, who'd fought at Welterweight in the past, needed one fight in the division before fighting GSP because he'd spent the previous two years at Middleweight (as the Strikeforce Middleweight Champion).

The fact is, Dillashaw isn't a Flyweight, has never competed in Flyweight, and you pretending like Johnson is as obligated to fight Dillashaw as he is any contender in the Flyweight division only demonstrates your laughable bias against Johnson.

So then is that the test now.

Over the next bunch of years if a Champ wants an immediate title shot at the division below and the UFC is willing to give him it, the question then is simply 'if I (and others) simply believe the guy looks small and can make it then the shot is ok. If I (and others) have doubts then he should not get it'?

i don't care if TJ or Bisping or Machida or Bj Penn and hundreds and hundreds of other fighters never fought in a division before moving up or down a weight class. Any fighter is allowed to move weight classes at any time if the UFC allows it. the only thing that matters is that when they are given their first fight in the new weight class they make weight. That is ALL that matters. Not your guess as to which of the hundreds look like they can make and which of the hundreds don't. that is a stupid and arbitrary thing you want put in.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Ward vs. Kovalev 1 | 165,000 buys | Ward got paid $5 million, Kovalev got paid $2 million plus a % of the profits.
Ward vs. Kovalev 2 | 130,000 buys | Ward got paid $6.5 million, Kovalev got paid a % of the PPV and gate revenue.

Johnson vs. Dillashaw would easily do double the buyrates and yet Johnson is asking for 70% less. And the narrative that champions can't get those kinds of purses because the UFC has stacked cards hasn't been true for the last three years.

Ahhh and here is it is as suspected. This is more about 'the UFC needs to pay more, period' than specifically MM or TJ. I think that is the case with many who would find any excuse to rally behind anything that pushes the UFC to pay more. And I am sympathetic to that position as overall I do think the UFC could and should pay more.

That said that is not the case based on the merits of this case. First off the boxing model is very different to the MMA one due tot he Ali act and so many fighters actign as their own promoters. It has greatly disempowered all but the very top promoters and gave far more leverage to the fighters.

The Ward V Kovalev fight was stated to do very disappointing PPV #'s as opposed to what was PROJECTED and the promoter guaranteed purses based on what was projected and speculation is that the promoter might have taken a bath on that fight.

The UFC won't do that and MM should not expect it.

 

[MikeMcMann]

The UFC makes money the exact same way that boxing makes money, and then some.

This argument can be solved easily enough: what percentage of the revenue do champions deserve?

He is right and you are wrong.

Boxing is a mature sport with stable proven revenues and they are not still trying to build out unprofitable markets.

MMA is still a young expansion sport in which we have not even been able to see a second stable competitive org be able to make money and survive and there is still a ton of money being spent on unknowns like new market expansion.

MMA fighters should get a zero guaranteed % of revenue but giving them a Profit Share of about 25% would be fair.

The difference being is that if you give a guaranteed revenue share that would give the fighters a percentage even when the org was not profitable. Would you suggest this for all MMA orgs or just the UFC? It would be dumb as investors would never except it while they were carrying the risk and costs.

the reason it can work in boxing and NFL, etc is the costs are known and profits predictable within a very comfortable range. There is far less risk. So you can peg a % share of revenue which is worked backwards off of the known and predictable profit. And understand any revenue share is ALWAYS worked backwards off of the profit to ensure it does not drive the org into losses and bankruptcy.

So an org like the NFl or boxing can see they have profit margins of X% and could share a percent of that and they just calculate what that share is against the Revenues.

 

[Mortigan]

Literally all the UFC needs to do is guarantee TJ makes weight.

The word "guarantee", in its original meaning, does imply that the UFC would pay DMMJ if TJ misses weight - but fight would be cancelled.

If the UFC can't guarantee it, they can't honestly say they believe that TJ making weight is likely enough to call the fight "a FlW bout"

All TJ needs to do is win one contender fight and make 125, and DJ would have to take the fight. All the UFC needs to do, otherwise, is provide a guarantee.

Will they? No.

Why not? You know why.

 

[acannxr]

LUL.. look kid.. I told u i'd have to crunch the numbers.. I was hoping you would provide me with those to actually call me out.. U didn't.. So nice try..

If you're going to call me a kid, at least use proper English <45>.

I did crunch a bit.. I think i seen where he sold like 120k at one event.. 65 bucks a pop.. that was like 7.8 million.. Whatever seat sales venue price price of other fighters on the card.. Does the venue get food and beverage sales..

lets keep it simple he makes 7.8 so u give him 2.. That leave u makeing 5.8 you still got to pay Dillishaw what did he want? Another 2 or so.. So now your down to making 3.8... We still got other things to pay.. and whatever else.. Naaaa not worth it kid.. Let him fight for the 330k or whatever he makes stick him on the same card as the guy he was suppose to fight and let hit open up for him..

So now minus his 330k off the same 7.8 million and TJ's 2 Million he deserves.. ANd wow I made alot more money and still got both the fighters on the card.. God damn i'm good.

You're basing all of this on the premise that a "super fight" between Johnson and Dillashaw would only sell 120,000 buyrates. If that's all this "super fight" would sell then it's not a "super fight" at all and the discussion should be dropped altogether.

The UFC has lately been averaging in the 250-300k buyrate range, so assuming Johnson vs. Dillashaw would sell 300k isn't too far-fetched:
300,000 Buys * $65 = $19,500,000
Live Gate = $2,500,000-3,000,000
Sponsors (Stickers on Octagon, ads in between fights/rounds, Buffer mentioning them every time he speaks) = ???
TV Deals for Non-PPV countries = ???
Total = $22,500,000 + Sponsors + TV Deals

Expenses:
Cable Company is typically 50% of the PPV revenue.
Fighter base pay typically hovers around $2 million (based on UFC 222)
And let's give both Johnson and Dillashaw each $2 million.
Total = -$15,750,000

Profit (+43%; a business is considered healthy with a 25% profit margin):
$6,750,000 + Sponsors + TV Deals

And why exactly does Dillashaw deserve $2 million, but Johnson doesn't? They both have comparable buyrates, but unlike Dillashaw, Johnson has a record amount of title defenses. You're not even trying to mask your bias at this point.

You also keep talking about WME's debt, but ignore how much revenue they bring in from their subscription services, merchandise, and most recently the massive ESPN deal they just signed (the revenue of which will almost entirely go to the UFC). I'm sure @FrankieNYC could provide some numbers. WME has also cut a tremendous amount of costs since taking ownership of the company.

 

[Vegesus44]

I think people are sleeping on MM because he seems to want nothing to do with this fight. Not wanting to move up is one thing, but refusing to fight TJ when TJ is willing to move down is another.

Not when you are getting paid peanuts. After all, the old saying aplies here, 'pay peanuts get monkeys'.

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

If you're going to call me a kid, at least use proper English <45>.


You're basing all of this on the premise that a "super fight" between Johnson and Dillashaw would only sell 120,000 buyrates. If that's all this "super fight" would sell then it's not a "super fight" at all and the discussion should be dropped altogether.

The UFC has lately been averaging in the 250-300k buyrate range, so assuming Johnson vs. Dillashaw would sell 300k isn't too far-fetched:
300,000 Buys * $65 = $19,500,000
Live Gate = $2,500,000-3,000,000
Sponsors (Stickers on Octagon, ads in between fights/rounds, Buffer mentioning them every time he speaks) = ???
TV Deals for Non-PPV countries = ???
Total = $22,500,000 + Sponsors + TV Deals

Expenses:
Cable Company is typically 50% of the PPV revenue.
Fighter base pay typically hovers around $2 million (based on UFC 222)
And let's give both Johnson and Dillashaw each $2 million.
Total = -$15,750,000

Profit (+43%; a business is considered healthy with a 25% profit margin):
$6,750,000 + Sponsors + TV Deals

And why exactly does Dillashaw deserve $2 million, but Johnson doesn't? They both have comparable buyrates, but unlike Dillashaw, Johnson has a record amount of title defenses. You're not even trying to mask your bias at this point.

You also keep talking about WME's debt, but ignore how much revenue they bring in from their subscription services, merchandise, and most recently the massive ESPN deal they just signed (the revenue of which will almost entirely go to the UFC). I'm sure @FrankieNYC could provide some numbers. WME has also cut a tremendous amount of costs since taking ownership of the company.

Did you really base this off assumption.. You asked me to go into assumption and when I did.. You said I was wrong and then went right into assumption..

Lol.. U a funny guy..

How u going to assume MM is going to sell that many when he hasn't his whole life? Oh your basing this off of him fighting TJ.. SO its TJ doing all the sales not MM...

Thats why TJ desrves it not MM.. So anyway... go on about your way... tired of talking to you, you just come up with more BS after more BS all your hypothetical and well if this does this and that does that.. Well it doesn't didn't happen won't happen.. Get off your fairy tale I am.

 

[BigDaddyChristopher]

If you're going to call me a kid, at least use proper English <45>.


You're basing all of this on the premise that a "super fight" between Johnson and Dillashaw would only sell 120,000 buyrates. If that's all this "super fight" would sell then it's not a "super fight" at all and the discussion should be dropped altogether.

The UFC has lately been averaging in the 250-300k buyrate range, so assuming Johnson vs. Dillashaw would sell 300k isn't too far-fetched:
300,000 Buys * $65 = $19,500,000
Live Gate = $2,500,000-3,000,000
Sponsors (Stickers on Octagon, ads in between fights/rounds, Buffer mentioning them every time he speaks) = ???
TV Deals for Non-PPV countries = ???
Total = $22,500,000 + Sponsors + TV Deals

Expenses:
Cable Company is typically 50% of the PPV revenue.
Fighter base pay typically hovers around $2 million (based on UFC 222)
And let's give both Johnson and Dillashaw each $2 million.
Total = -$15,750,000

Profit (+43%; a business is considered healthy with a 25% profit margin):
$6,750,000 + Sponsors + TV Deals

And why exactly does Dillashaw deserve $2 million, but Johnson doesn't? They both have comparable buyrates, but unlike Dillashaw, Johnson has a record amount of title defenses. You're not even trying to mask your bias at this point.

You also keep talking about WME's debt, but ignore how much revenue they bring in from their subscription services, merchandise, and most recently the massive ESPN deal they just signed (the revenue of which will almost entirely go to the UFC). I'm sure @FrankieNYC could provide some numbers. WME has also cut a tremendous amount of costs since taking ownership of the company.

Matter of fact i say this fight sells less fights the more its talked about and goes on...

I would of bought this when it was announced.. Now do I care about this fight.. No i'd stream it.. Who cares if MM wins or losses now.. Guy is killing his own career fast... So he went from one buyer in me to now i'd stream it..

I'd say the further it goes the less its going to sale tbh. So your numbers are going to be waaay off.

 

[FrankieNYC]

You also keep talking about WME's debt, but ignore how much revenue they bring in from their subscription services, merchandise, and most recently the massive ESPN deal they just signed (the revenue of which will almost entirely go to the UFC). I'm sure @FrankieNYC could provide some numbers. WME has also cut a tremendous amount of costs since taking ownership of the company.

Yo buddy
What numbers do you need?

 

[acannxr]

Did you really base this off assumption.. You asked me to go into assumption and when I did.. You said I was wrong and then went right into assumption..

Lol.. U a funny guy..

How u going to assume MM is going to sell that many when he hasn't his whole life? Oh your basing this off of him fighting TJ.. SO its TJ doing all the sales not MM...

Thats why TJ desrves it not MM.. So anyway... go on about your way... tired of talking to you, you just come up with more BS after more BS all your hypothetical and well if this does this and that does that.. Well it doesn't didn't happen won't happen.. Get off your fairy tale I am.

I didn't say you were wrong, I said that it's not a "super fight" if it were to only sell 120,000 buys, but good job misconstruing a very simple statement.

The selling point to this fight is the fact that it's champion against champion, they're both necessary for the UFC to call it a "super fight". On their own, neither of them are going to pull 300,000 buys, yet you continue to act (and misconstrue) as if Dillashaw has more value all for the sake of trying to disregard Johnson.

What's funny is, you conveniently ignored the fact that the UFC could pull 40% profit so long as the PPV sold at least 300,000 buys, all the while paying both Dillashaw and Johnson $2 million each. But that possibility doesn't fit your narrative that Johnson is pricing himself out and doesn't deserve that reasonable purse, hence why you misconstrue my words <45>.

Yo buddy
What numbers do you need?

The UFC's revenue (estimate when needed) outside of PPV .

 

[FrankieNYC]

The UFC's revenue (estimate when needed) outside of PPV .

Without a single PPV sold they are over a $200m profit a year company (the way things are currently situated)
that will go up in 2019

Anybody that thinks UFC lives/dies by PPV these days is uninformed

It is about 20-25% of the business