Military Roll Call! Veterans, GTFIH!

[Strychnine]

R. Lee Ermey was so tough that I didn't see him as old...

Just Hard.

 

[Phr3121]

For those that have not seen it, I highly recommend it:

 

[Phr3121]

Tribute to R. Lee Ermey:

 

[Rozko]

For those that have not seen it, I highly recommend it:

I legit cried like a bitch watching that movie... repeatedly

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Question for the Marines and Soilders. Would an officer make LtC in todays force without combat experience? Or would it depend on the MOS?

 

[Phr3121]

Question for the Marines and Soilders. Would an officer make LtC in todays force without combat experience? Or would it depend on the MOS?

'soilders' or soldiers? Well, I'll speak for the U.S. Army, but I think it is the same with the U.S. Marines, U.S. Navy, and U.S. Air Force. MOS is really irrelevant since you can make it to General in any MOS. As it was explained to me when I was a young Lieutenant. As long as all your education, time-in-grade, APFT, and weight is in good order, you will keep on getting promoted. Also, you need to score 50% above center mass on your OERs (evaluations).

So, no, combat does not really count for anything when getting promoted. It helps, but you can get promoted without it. I know we have a couple of medical guys who mentioned how their officers did not get deployed and were able to get promoted and retire. Plus, there are only a few MOSs in the U.S. Army that will see combat: Infantry, Artillery, Engineers, Aviation, Special Forces, Armor. I can think of 23 MOSs that will not see combat. Those officers still need to get promoted.

I retired as a senior Major. I can tell you from experience that 2 things are way more important than combat. Military school completion and being able to be promoted into a position. As you get to the Colonel, O-6, level and above, the slots are limited.

I think a good chunk of folks with combat experience are now retired. Both officers and enlisted still need to get promoted in a peacetime Army.

Also, you don't need to be 'Ranger' qualified (tabbed) to make it to General. Norman Schwarzkopf (Gulf War) was a 4 star Infantry General without a Ranger tab. That is not very common for an Infantry officer on Active Duty. General Bantz Craddock with USSOUTHCOM was another one.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

'soilders' or soldiers? Well, I'll speak for the U.S. Army, but I think it is the same with the U.S. Marines, U.S. Navy, and U.S. Air Force. MOS is really irrelevant since you can make it to General in any MOS. As it was explained to me when I was a young Lieutenant. As long as all your education, time-in-grade, APFT, and weight is in good order, you will keep on getting promoted. Also, you need to score 50% above center mass on your OERs (evaluations).

So, no, combat does not really count for anything when getting promoted. It helps, but you can get promoted without it. I know we have a couple of medical guys who mentioned how their officers did not get deployed and were able to get promoted and retire. Plus, there are only a few MOSs in the U.S. Army that will see combat: Infantry, Artillery, Engineers, Aviation, Special Forces, Armor. I can think of 23 MOSs that will not see combat. Those officers still need to get promoted.

I retired as a senior Major. I can tell you from experience that 2 things are way more important than combat. Military school completion and being able to be promoted into a position. As you get to the Colonel, O-6, level and above, the slots are limited.

I think a good chunk of folks with combat experience are now retired. Both officers and enlisted still need to get promoted in a peacetime Army.

Also, you don't need to be 'Ranger' qualified (tabbed) to make it to General. Norman Schwarzkopf (Gulf War) was a 4 star Infantry General without a Ranger tab. That is not very common for an Infantry officer on Active Duty. General Bantz Craddock with USSOUTHCOM was another one.

 

[Mike Hagger]

Question for the Marines and Soilders. Would an officer make LtC in todays force without combat experience? Or would it depend on the MOS?

It's likely to be MOS dependant, unlikely you will see a LTC in the infantry without a CIB.

Non-infantry branches, admin, logistics ect will have a better possibility to see LTC without a combat rotation. I'll bet they don't make it to COL though.

That's my best guess, not seeing a combat patch on a LTC would be weird, especially when his SPC likely has one.

 

[Phr3121]

@SMillard, I'm going to move our conversation here since I think we have been 'derailing' the other thread now for a few pages. More likely to get input from military folks in this section. Quite a 'novel' you wrote below, but all good stuff. Good memories...
@Adamant

From what I've heard the women that passed the Ranger course did it on their own and most of the rumors about "special ladders" "instructions to pass at least one" and so on are nothing but rumors. I know everyone "knows someone that heard from someone" but the truth is if it were truly a problem there would have been a huge outcry. There was an outcry from active SF guys that the Q course has restructured to where they recycle people that fail a portion instead of dropping them like they used to. Basically the demands for more operators has driven them to make that adjustment and some of the old timers don't like it. Personally I had more of a problem with the 18X program since when I was in you had to be at least E 4 promotable or E 5 to apply for the Q course, (although had it been available when I went in I'd probably have tried it, so my gripe is probably more sour grapes even though I know most people wash out).
I have no problem with women in the courses as long as they maintain the standards. Let's be honest, it's not like there are going to be thousands of women doing it. For the most part it'll be a few women applying and even fewer women qualifying.

There were some "shake and bake" women's specialized training that went into women that were assigned in Afghanistan due to cultural constraints. It was found that the training was very limited and kind of pushed women through to meet personnel requirements, a few of these women were killed in operations. There was no correlation between the training they received and them being killed but there were criticisms that there were gaps in their training when it came to working with the teams they were assigned to. So the simplest solution is to integrate the schools and allow for a build up of qualified women over time instead of an instant solution "quick fix" course.

Again, the Ranger course is an infantry leadership course, a damn good one. The Ranger regiment/battalions are a totally different thing which many people get confused. As Prh2131 said they have opened it up to all kinds of MOSs, which again goes to what I said before about how at one point being a snake eater was looked down on when it came to career advancement, but now it's almost a requirement. So for many it's becoming a career requirement, at some point it'll probably be like jump school where you'll have people that qualify and never use it again like myself, relegated to being a 5 jump chump for the rest of my life.

Remember with Delta officially they don't even exist. There is no unit designator, they normally use a SF tab like the one you posted but it isn't the Delta unit designator. There are a few books by Delta operators but for the most part they keep pretty quiet just like the British SAS. I work with a guy that was a Navy SBD operator which basically drive the small boats to deliver the SEALs and the ongoing joke at this time is when you get your Budweiser badge you also get your name added to a publishers' directory for when you want to write your book. The SEALs have a real problem with that right now but it seems to have died down some recently. When I was in you had to be at least an E 5 to apply to Delta, again I've read articles that they recruit from other services but I have nothing to confirm that.

As far as the operational commitments of Delta at the time of the Bin Laden raid, I'll take Prh2131 at his word that maybe they were too busy, although I'm sure if asked they would have had plenty of volunteers. I'd always figured the Joint chief being a former SEAL and navy man had a lot to do with it. I know it's not the first time politics and pushing "your services agenda" may have had some part in it. Also it was an army unit that found Saddam so maybe they also wanted to share the love.

As far as who's school is harder, weekends off and so on. They are all comparable. I'd be willing to bet that anyone that passes BUDS/SEAL training would have the fortitude to pass the SF Q course, PJ superman course or the force recon and vice versa for any graduates of those other courses passing the others. I know the PJ course is very medical intense, you do actual time as a paramedic as part of your training to have practical experience. Though I also know that when I was in there were medics in the 82nd that were loaned out to fire rescue/EMT services so they could get practical experience, so I'm sure that it isn't too uncommon. There comes a point where you are no longer testing someone's commitment and mental/physical toughness and you are just wearing someone down to the point they are running a risk of injury or accident, the military tries to find that sweet spot and it appears each service found their own path to it. I know people crap on the PJ extended training day because it's only a 20 to 24 hour day, but I've noticed that the longer the situation goes the more you put yourself into autopilot where you just basically just keep droning on and on. An extended day of running, push ups, ruck marching, swimming, flutter kicks, extended distance farmer carries with fuel cans, carrying "body parts" to an extraction point and so on will pretty much find out just as much about a person as the BUDS hell week.

A great example of the rubber ball claymore is in the movie Jackass 2, go to youtube they have it as Jackass 2 rubber ball mine clip. Those stoners earned their dollar that day.

When I was in there was supposed to be a one year limit in a Ranger battalion but they were always low on new people so they'd keep them. They really don't want people to stay in the regiment for more than the three years, too much wear and tear on the body. The first unit I was in had a few Ranger washouts, one was a guy that got drunk the night of the Grenada invasion basically didn't show up, another guy passed out during a sandbag run and basically said "screw this shit" so they bounced him, a third guy was dropped for unknown reasons was always curious about him since he was a very squared away soldier. The drunk guy was a shitbird, he was getting processed out when I left that unit, the guy never rose above E 1 (he'd been demoted at least twice that I knew of) the sandbag guy ended up being a corporal but there was nothing extraordinary about him, the last guy I never figured it out, he came to us an E 2 (so he must have been demoted, in fact I'd have bet money on it by the way he carried himself) but uniform and boots were always above and beyond as far as being pressed and shined. PT scores and rifle qualifications always in the upper third of the unit, He was a good guy from what little conversation I had with him, hope he ended up getting his career back on track after whatever happened and/or he did.

I never heard about SF being a separate branch, I know they were created back in the 50's and they called the first unit the 10th Special Forces because they wanted the Soviets to think there were at least 9 other detachments. Then the second one was called the 77th, guess they were really trying to blow the Soviet's minds. The whole green berets thing actually started out as kind of a joke. A group wore them to a retirement ceremony at Bragg and everyone thought they were a foreign delegation. The base commander then forbade them to wear them as official uniform wear ever again. They still did, normally in the field which after having worn a maroon beret for a very short time after graduating jump school I can tell you berets suck at keeping your head warm. Finally Kennedy approved the berets, then everyone pretty much stopped wearing them until they became an official headgear. Basically if it was acceptable they didn't want to wear them. At least that's how I remember it from the SF museum at Bragg, one of the few "cultural" things I did at Bragg and the great FayetteNam area. The museum was awesome, anyone that's interested there is a UDT/SEAL museum in Ft Pierce, Florida about an hour north of West Palm Beach. The Bragg SF museum is restricted since it's on the military base but the UDT/SEAL one is open to the public since it's a privately owned place.

Yes, you and I can relate to the U.S. Army of the late 1980s. A time when women in 'combat arms' or Ranger school would not even be a passing thought. Now you have Chaplains and 2 females wearing the Ranger tab. I have no doubt in my mind those girls were 'pushed' through Ranger school to graduate. Politics and a 3 star General with an agenda. I'm sure glad I don't have to worry about women in the Infantry or gays in the military.

Yes, 1984 was when SF became a separate branch and went from cross 'rifles' to cross 'arrows'. Like I mentioned, @sub_thug just pinned on Major and he is with SF I believe at Ft. Bragg. He could give a good perspective on SF training vs. U.S. Navy SEAL training. Like you and @Adamant have mentioned, SF and SEALs are very similar. Same for the diver course. The Army does hire SEAL instructors for the Special Forces Combat Diver Qualification Course. (CDQC) at Key West, Florida. I'm sure one could complete the others training without any problems. Like a lot of these schools - 75% mental and 25% physical.

...and Delta. Like I mentioned before, 20 years in the U.S. Army and I still don't know much about those boys. Like I told @Adamant, one of the few giveaways in the uniform is the Special Operations Command (USASOC) patch, but even that does not mean you are a Delta. You would have to go through their 201 file to find out. There really aren't that many around and it is like a special 'brotherhood'. Like SEAL Team 6, you have to be voted in by all the other members. Like a Fraternity in college. If one member 'blackballs' you, you are out. ​

 

[Phr3121]

Colonel demoted, immediately retired from Air National Guard over dinosaur puppet video

"The Tennessee Air National Guard Colonel who led a re-enlistment ceremony in which a senior noncommissioned officer recited her oath using a dinosaur puppet has been demoted and retired."

Story: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...deo/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Don’t fuck with big blue apparently.

 

[SMillard]

@SMillard, I'm going to move our conversation here since I think we have been 'derailing' the other thread now for a few pages. More likely to get input from military folks in this section. Quite a 'novel' you wrote below, but all good stuff. Good memories...
@Adamant

Yes, you and I can relate to the U.S. Army of the late 1980s. A time when women in 'combat arms' or Ranger school would not even be a passing thought. Now you have Chaplains and 2 females wearing the Ranger tab. I have no doubt in my mind those girls were 'pushed' through Ranger school to graduate. Politics and a 3 star General with an agenda. I'm sure glad I don't have to worry about women in the Infantry or gays in the military.

Yes, 1984 was when SF became a separate branch and went from cross 'rifles' to cross 'arrows'. Like I mentioned, @sub_thug just pinned on Major and he is with SF I believe at Ft. Bragg. He could give a good perspective on SF training vs. U.S. Navy SEAL training. Like you and @Adamant have mentioned, SF and SEALs are very similar. Same for the diver course. The Army does hire SEAL instructors for the Special Forces Combat Diver Qualification Course. (CDQC) at Key West, Florida. I'm sure one could complete the others training without any problems. Like a lot of these schools - 75% mental and 25% physical.

...and Delta. Like I mentioned before, 20 years in the U.S. Army and I still don't know much about those boys. Like I told @Adamant, one of the few giveaways in the uniform is the Special Operations Command (USASOC) patch, but even that does not mean you are a Delta. You would have to go through their 201 file to find out. There really aren't that many around and it is like a special 'brotherhood'. Like SEAL Team 6, you have to be voted in by all the other members. Like a Fraternity in college. If one member 'blackballs' you, you are out. ​

The chaplin thing I don't get, but like I said I think there is a need/usefulness to having women like that, especially in culturally sensitive areas. I just consider it another tool in the tool box. As far as the gay thing, I am pretty indifferent I did witness one 1st Lt that was forced out due to rumors about him being gay. He was actually a good officer and it wasn't like he was walking around staring at everyone's crotch or doing anything inappropriate. It all started from a rumor that he went running with "some guy" and the guy pulled a muscle the Lt offered to massage it and his hand went north during the massage. Again, when pressed about who was the guy that this happened to the typical military rumor mill kicked in, it's always a guy I know at one of the other companies/batteries that knows some guy that it happened to. As long as they keep their personal life out of it (and that goes for pretty much straight people too) I don't care.

Yeah, the SF becoming a separate "branch" I thought about that. I just took it at value it always was but I remember after the Iran rescue fiasco and Grenada there were so many issues that they restructured and created the JSOC. I forgot that at one point SF were basically a bunch of "fancy 11Bs" until they got their own designation and MOS.

I don't know what the hell is up with that re-enlistment with the dinosaur puppet you posted. I know that shit wouldn't have flown in any unit I was in. Then again, everyone didn't have cell phones and the need to post everything when I was in. I was amazed that units had Facebook pages, and that was before all this Cambridge Analytica info mining stuff going on. To this day I don't have a Facebook page.

When you were talking about the Q course and the "green tick" it reminded me of one last anecdote you'll probably find amusing. I try to stay in shape as much as possible and in fact I'll do a "PT test" every once in awhile and can still pass it (I still use the 17 to 21 chart) so one day I figured what the hell I haven't done a good old fashion ruck march in a long time, but I figured I'd scale it to just six miles with a 50 lbs sand bag and water bottles in an old ALICE pack. First mile was not bad, second mile things started to get a little tiring, third to fifth mile i kept thinking "I COULD just drop the pack, walk home and drive back to retrieve the pack" about a half mile from my house there's a big water fountain at the entrance to the neighborhood, I took a break and layed down in the water fountain, people must have thought i was some homeless guy taking a bath. Then I finished, dropped the pack on my pool deck and fully clothed jumped in the pool. People do not realize how grueling, tiring and just outright brutal on your body it is having a heavy pack on your back all the time. I was so used to it when I was in I didn't think of it as much issue, boy was that a reality check.

 

[Phr3121]

When you were talking about the Q course and the "green tick" it reminded me of one last anecdote you'll probably find amusing. I try to stay in shape as much as possible and in fact I'll do a "PT test" every once in awhile and can still pass it (I still use the 17 to 21 chart) so one day I figured what the hell I haven't done a good old fashion ruck march in a long time, but I figured I'd scale it to just six miles with a 50 lbs sand bag and water bottles in an old ALICE pack.

I never had a problem with ruck marches. Only issue where the ruck straps digging into your shoulders. I enjoyed it. I found it to be a quiet and peaceful time in training. I never really preped for it, but my legs and feet were always in good shape. My issue had always been going long periods of time with little food and sleep.

I had a Battalion Commander who must have been in his late 40s who used to take the APFT under the 18 year old standard and always get above 80%. This while some 18 year olds could barely hit the 60% mark.

Also, I don't know if you remember this incident from 1983. This happened to the top Navy SEAL Team. How exactly does a U.S. Navy SEAL die from drowning? Are they not the best swimmers and divers in the world?

"U.S. Special Operations Forces were deployed to Grenada beginning on 23 October 1983, before the invasion on 25 October. U.S. Navy SEALs from SEAL Team SIX with Air Force Combat Controllers were airdropped at sea, miles from land to perform a reconnaissance mission on Point Salines, but delays in the insertion pushed the mission into the middle of night during a storm with low visibility and high waves, resulting in four SEALs drowning upon landing. The survivors continued their mission but their boats flooded while evading a patrol boat, causing the mission to be aborted."
@Adamant

 

[Mike Hagger]

In my time in SF I've never heard of the dive course using seals as instructors.

Seals vs sf in terms of course difficulty is always a conversation. I'll say this we'd have a lot less GBs if surface swims and water confidence were a requirement. I also do not believe our courses are very similar. Neither are our missions, generally, the current conflicts have muddied that though.

I'll never be convinced that women in the infantry is beneficial to our ability to fight and win.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

I never had a problem with ruck marches. Only issue where the ruck straps digging into your shoulders. I enjoyed it. I found it to be a quiet and peaceful time in training. I never really preped for it, but my legs and feet were always in good shape. My issue had always been going long periods of time with little food and sleep.

I had a Battalion Commander who must have been in his late 40s who used to take the APFT under the 18 year old standard and always get above 80%. This while some 18 year olds could barely hit the 60% mark.

Also, I don't know if you remember this incident from 1983. This happened to the top Navy SEAL Team. How exactly does a U.S. Navy SEAL die from drowning? Are they not the best swimmers and divers in the world?

"U.S. Special Operations Forces were deployed to Grenada beginning on 23 October 1983, before the invasion on 25 October. U.S. Navy SEALs from SEAL Team SIX with Air Force Combat Controllers were airdropped at sea, miles from land to perform a reconnaissance mission on Point Salines, but delays in the insertion pushed the mission into the middle of night during a storm with low visibility and high waves, resulting in four SEALs drowning upon landing. The survivors continued their mission but their boats flooded while evading a patrol boat, causing the mission to be aborted."
@Adamant

my unit, 3-4 IN in the 170th IBCT (was 2-6 IN in 1AD, 2BDE prior to reflagging), decided to do TWO seperate 34 mile ruck marches b/c the LTC wanted a good OER and i guess we were 3-4?

the re-enlistment percentage of lower enlisted among the battalion, no exaggeration, was roughly 10%. Gee, what do you know.

We once did a 34 miler on TUE/WED, then a 10 mile BN run that same FRI b/c fuck morale and your feet

good times?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

my unit, 3-4 IN in the 170th IBCT (was 2-6 IN in 1AD, 2BDE prior to reflagging), decided to do TWO seperate 34 mile ruck marches b/c the LTC wanted a good OER and i guess we were 3-4?

the re-enlistment percentage of lower enlisted among the battalion, no exaggeration, was roughly 10%. Gee, what do you know.

We once did a 34 miler on TUE/WED, then a 10 mile BN run that same FRI b/c fuck morale and your feet

good times?

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Tha

That build up too tho
Ruck twice a week for PT, then an 18, 20, 24, and 25 miler before the 34...

Wtf we're not on Vietnam era search and destroy missions
Got an AAM for each one tho haha. Well and back surgery

 

[Phr3121]

My unit, 3-4 IN in the 170th IBCT, decided to do TWO seperate 34 mile ruck marches b/c the LTC wanted a good OER and i guess we were 3-4?

The re-enlistment percentage of lower enlisted among the battalion, no exaggeration, was roughly 10%. Gee, what do you know.

I'm sorry to hear that. Your LTC Commander was a fucking idiot. Why would a ruck march affect his OER? If anything it would play against him and the morale of the unit. Yes, and there it is, 10% re-enlistment rate. What about the NCOs, does the SGM not have any input into what the 'idiot' LTC does? Sounds fucked up. Shit leadership. Way too much time rucking that could be better spent on more productive things. Unfortunately fucked-up leaders are everywhere.

Got an AAM for each one thou.

What? They gave out AAMs for rucking? That's fucked-up also...

 

[SMillard]

I never had a problem with ruck marches. Only issue where the ruck straps digging into your shoulders. I enjoyed it. I found it to be a quiet and peaceful time in training. I never really preped for it, but my legs and feet were always in good shape. My issue had always been going long periods of time with little food and sleep.

I had a Battalion Commander who must have been in his late 40s who used to take the APFT under the 18 year old standard and always get above 80%. This while some 18 year olds could barely hit the 60% mark.

Also, I don't know if you remember this incident from 1983. This happened to the top Navy SEAL Team. How exactly does a U.S. Navy SEAL die from drowning? Are they not the best swimmers and divers in the world?

"U.S. Special Operations Forces were deployed to Grenada beginning on 23 October 1983, before the invasion on 25 October. U.S. Navy SEALs from SEAL Team SIX with Air Force Combat Controllers were airdropped at sea, miles from land to perform a reconnaissance mission on Point Salines, but delays in the insertion pushed the mission into the middle of night during a storm with low visibility and high waves, resulting in four SEALs drowning upon landing. The survivors continued their mission but their boats flooded while evading a patrol boat, causing the mission to be aborted."
@Adamant

When I was young the ruck marches weren't bad. Doing them in my 40's it was my lower back and the the straps digging in my shoulders, my legs weren't the issue they were fine, hell my legs aren't the issue when I do heavy squats, it's always my lower back.
As far as the PT test, I'd say I'm above the 80%, the push ups and sit ups I am close to maxing, it's the run that kills me, but I'm still over the 60% I think my time was around 14 minutes the last time I did it. I just looked at the standards, did they lower them? I could have sworn they were harder when I was in, I seem to remember to get a 100 on the run you needed to be under 12 minutes, now it looks like it's 13 minutes. Now you've got me considering doing a test, might do it next weekend.

You must have been reading my mind about the Grenada thing. The drowning thing, that was unfortunately a case of people and an organization not knowing or admitting it's limitations. To the best of my knowledge they never found the bodies of the four either. You could be Mike Phelps and still drown if the conditions are bad enough. As I said before from working with commercial divers that worked on Navy bases, they were very unimpressed with the SEALs in regards to their diving abilities. Basically, they don't do it enough to be "world class" they as you probably accurately put it "spend too much time playing soldier".The other issue was that the SEALs didn't have proper commo gear or proper maps so the contingents that took the governor's mansion and radio station faced Grenadian reinforcements without adequate air support or support at all in the case of the radio station where the team had to abandon their objective, the governor's mansion team lucked out that the Marines came in to back them up. The SEALs had a couple bad runs in the 80's of trying to punch above their weight class, similar thing in Panama, they sent a "team" of around 100 SEALs to take the Panamanian airport where Noriega housed his private jet. The SEALs completed the job, but suffered a lot of casualties, it was too large a group to coordinate for an organization that normally works in groups a quarter that size or smaller. First off the mission should have gone to the Rangers since they practice airfield assaults as part of their bread and butter, the reasoning behind using the SEALs baffles me. Their assault on Noriega's personal yacht was also a strange situation, the guys that assaulted used re-breathers and due to active shipping they ran a real risk of oxygen toxicity since they needed to go lower to avoid the ships. They did it, I believe at least one of the guys had to go through treatment, but why? Why not just have a helicopter run in do a rocket attack instead of risk the lives of high cost assets just so they could say "we attached some explosives to an over priced yacht". I know Marcinko was replaced before Grenada, but all those early mishaps I think rest squarely on his shoulders. The early days of team 6 were rife with in fighting and ego driven decisions that weren't the best for developing a unit like that, the one thing he was good at was getting funding for their training. I've read a couple books by Vietnam era SEALs that didn't have much good to say about him.

In my time in SF I've never heard of the dive course using seals as instructors.

Seals vs sf in terms of course difficulty is always a conversation. I'll say this we'd have a lot less GBs if surface swims and water confidence were a requirement. I also do not believe our courses are very similar. Neither are our missions, generally, the current conflicts have muddied that though.

I'll never be convinced that women in the infantry is beneficial to our ability to fight and win.

Didn't you guys do any water confidence training? That surprises me, I'd think with at least the prospect of river crossings or something like that you'd do at least something. I mean the Marines have a water confidence portion of their basic. Not the hands tied behind the back thing but at least something. I remember we'd have at least a few days a year training at the units, but it wasn't a qualification thing more of an orientation/experience thing. The funniest time, the 1st Sgt (black guy, which you'll understand why I'm qualifying that) basically said "all strong swimmers to the right, all average swimmers to the middle and all you poor and non-swimmers go to the left" so we all divide up and the 1st Sgt looks at us, just shakes his head and says "I should have just said all white guys to the right and all you N to the left" then there were the series of jokes about throwing the basketballs in the water as floatation devices. We had to swim fully clothes and boots holding the weapon out of the water the entire distance, wasn't bad as long as you didn't bump into someone and mess up your rhythm.

The women in infantry units thing I think is overblown, there will never be a large number of women that want to do that, it's at best going to be an anomaly. Although I respect your view, I think it's something people make more out of than it need be. I think it'll be like most things, once they are allowed to do it, it will lose its appeal and fewer will even want to. I can see an advantage to having women trained especially in situations like Afghanistan where the women won't talk unless it's to another woman.

 

[SMillard]

my unit, 3-4 IN in the 170th IBCT (was 2-6 IN in 1AD, 2BDE prior to reflagging), decided to do TWO seperate 34 mile ruck marches b/c the LTC wanted a good OER and i guess we were 3-4?

the re-enlistment percentage of lower enlisted among the battalion, no exaggeration, was roughly 10%. Gee, what do you know.

We once did a 34 miler on TUE/WED, then a 10 mile BN run that same FRI b/c fuck morale and your feet

good times?

sounds like a LT Col that bought a lot of stock in mole skin to me.