Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Thai Domi, Jun 16, 2016.
I want to get this one as a "nice to have" from Gerber.
I didn't have a problem with a civilian instructor teaching "military" or government personnel. I've seen where they have used some civilian instructors for some survival instruction in the past. Hell I'd happily have someone like Matt Graham teaching me bushcraft survival despite the fact the guy has never gotten as much as a sniff of military life. I'd even accept him as a fitness instructor, seeing
The tomahawks are nice, but from a weight standpoint (I quickly developed a "what's the impact of me having to carry this thing around all the time" attitude about stuff, carrying an M 60 all the time for about six months will do that to you), I'd probably just as likely rely on an entrenching tool, more useful applications and just as vicious wounds. Although, when I did artillery survey we also had machetes, as far as melee weapon and the wounds they inflict I can't think of anything more brutal than machete wounds.
Well, that's different. Survival in the wilderness is not hand-to-hand combat. Well, come to think of it, the Gracies do teach the Rangers, SEALs, and police how to do self defense through BJJ or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
yeah, especially since the Gracies pretty much drove the whole combatives program.
Honestly the whole H2H thing in the military was a joke when I was in. We had two days of basically doing a hip throws and punching a bag when I was in. I remember getting to my first duty station and a corporal asked me about the H2H training, said he was worried he'd get his ass kicked by some E 1 because the army was touting their new H2H program to "make soldiers more lethal" I told him he'd get better training at a rape prevention class.
I remember a few years ago when I was still doing BJJ quite a bit we had some PMC guys and some reservists come in for additional training, pretty much everyone of the regular students blew through them. The biggest problem with combatives and H2H is it is a skill that needs to be constantly practiced, I'd even say more so than marksmanship. I can go to the range once or twice a month and still maintain some level competence. If I did that with BJJ or boxing I'd be pretty much wasting my time and depressing myself as some six month white belt whips my ass.
Agreed. When I went through basic training in the U.S. Army in 1988, there was no hand-to-hand training. We had the 'pugil stick' fights, like the Marines, in IOBC. Ranger school had a limited amount of training in combatives. Mostly take downs and chokes. This was 1991 before the UFC in 1993. Now, Rangers have the H2H combatives program created by the Gracies.
I took Tae Kwon-Do in High School, Aikido after college, and am now taking Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ). I was born in Brazil and should have taken BJJ first. A little over 3 years in each of the first to two Martial Arts. TKD back in the day was brutal. Very little padding. Basically gloves and a mouth piece. No headgear or vest. 50% to 75% out on sparring, but guys would still go 100% out and people would get KO, broken ribs, and broken noses (like me).
All 3 arts have their pros-and-cons. The basic techniques are the best. The simpler the better. 50% of fights in the UFC today finish with punches or kicks. No grappling. GJJ/BJJ is the only art I've seen (at least in my school) where white belts practice with white belts, so, it is hard to learn because both of you don't know what you are doing. There is a break in classes between white and blue belts. In TKD and Aikido, the class would be made up of lower and upper belts. You would learn better and faster with the upper belts.
It is amazing to me how little these BJJ guys know about how to block a punch or a kick. They spend basically less than 1% doing that. They have no idea of how fast a kick to the head can travel, or how a leg, being longer than an arm, can close the distance very quickly. Skilled TKD, Kung Fu, and Muay Thai fighters will never allowed themselves to be taken to the ground. Timing, distance, and speed.
I definitely don't plan to go to the ground on a fight. Specially against multiple opponents. But if I do go down to the ground, I want to learn how to defend myself from there. Even as an 'old' man, I can kick and punch these BJJ blue belts into submission...
I went through the MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Art's Program) Instructors program back in 2002. It was like a 3 month course out in Quantico. During that time they probably had about four or five civilian instructors come through and have the day with us. I only remember two.
First one was the number two guy at Blackwater. Not Eric Prince, but his XO. That dude and his cadre blew. All I remember was it being some hokey shit like the stuff my old man would try to teach me. Shit like, "If you think you're about to fight, step on the guys foot for a distraction. When he looks down, uppercut! Now go drill that for 30 minutes." His lectures were mostly about keeping a violent mindset and knowing that, should we find ourselves using hand-to-hand in an actual combat theater, it's probably a life and death situation, so be as violent as you need to. Considering he was pitching that to a room of grunts that had just rotated back from Afghanistan, the lecture was met with a "no shit."
The second guy was Kurt fucking Angle. He only had one day with us. And all he did was put us through the hardest workout of my life. I don't remember all the details of what it was; just that it was some long ass circuit course that stretched from outdoors on a big field, to indoors throughout a big ass gym. The whole workout lasted something like five or six hours, and any time you were in between stations had to go sit in the gym sauna with the lights turned out. Just sadistic shit, but you loved that when you were in your 20's in the marines trying to show the world how big your dick was. Lastly, one of the stations in this demonic workout from hell was you on the mat against Kurt. He was fresh (well, accepting that he was working through everyone in the class), and you were dog ass tired. You're goal was just to try to take him down. So, yeah, try taking down an olympic gold medalist. And he didn't go easy just because our kidney's were failing, dude straight up just ragdolled everyone. Guy stuck around afterwords to talk and chat. He seemed genuinely interested in our recent tours.
Good stuff, never been impressed with anything about Blackwater, I know a couple of people that worked in their aviation wing and PMCs, none of whom had any military experience. One guy was primarily a puddle jumper pilot. Nice enough guy, but not someone I'd expect or want in a combat zone.
The Kurt Angle thing is funny. I had a guy I used to train with, came in 2nd or third in the state (it's Florida, so it's not as impressive as say someplace like Iowa, but still impressive) and he drove out to the Olympics tryouts and the first person he drew to wrestle off against was Angle, said it took longer to drive there that for Angle to kick his ass in a best of three falls. Any high level wrestler that is still near the top of his game will ragdoll most people. In one of the BJJ schools I was at we had two very high level wrestler, guys basically became blue belts within a couple months. We'd do drills where we'd try to take them down it was embarrassing how easily they could take down pretty much everyone and most of us were blue belts or higher.
For about a year I trained with a former Israeli "commando" in a knockoff Krav Maga style, basically Krav Maga but with a few changes to avoid the legal ramifications (this was before I got to know how litigious the whole Krav Maga thing is, the joke became "the best self defense in Krav Maga is to go to law school"). This was also the same guy that did the knife fighting training. He'd do guest training for military, he'd get paid insane amounts of money, like six digit amounts to do a two week class. I say "commando" with the quotes because technically he was in an elite unit, but for those that don't know the Israelis have tons of units they consider elite so some are serious badass snake eaters and others are comparable to a regular infantry unit. Come to find out this guy was a TOW gunner in a scout unit, or so he said when questions about his "elite status" came up. It's funny you mentioned the Blackwater training because this guy had something similar where he'd have you stomp on their foot then push them over with the intent of snapping their ankle. Actually it worked pretty well for putting someone off balance, but not so sure about the ankle snapping.
One that I have heard very good things about from some old Vietnam era SF guys was Defendo, it was created back in the early 1900's under the name "combato" basically it was made by a guy that was a cop, he put together his own Martial arts experience as well as his time in Hong Kong, honestly if I were to pick a pedigree for coming up with a combat system it would probably be looking at the ranks of the police because they would have some of the most practical H2H experience. Kind of like who better to teach you how to handle a knife than a butcher?
I started out similar, did TKD for about four years, wrestled for one year before I joined. After I joined I started boxing, did the Krav Maga then moved on to BJJ and MMA. Boxing and wrestling were probably my favorites and more my go to. Oddly probably one of the most useful things I ever did H2H wise was the HEMA stuff, it was basically old European manuels and they covered the three phases of melee combat, which isn't unusual but it covered transition between the three and aspects of when you should avoid transitioning such as "don't engage in "krieg" or very close grappling style fighting in if the opponent has a numerical, size or skill advantage that you can't counter. It's funny most of the sword fighting was Italian, but the really down and dirty stuff was German (go figure) it was very straight forward and emphasized practicality despite the fruity old time English translations. "Though shall feel the thrust of my foot to thy groin if thee proceeds in a manner exposing excessive frontal portions of thy body" or something similar with a nice graphic of some poor bastard getting kicked in the nuts with an armored boot.
It's funny the poor reputation TKD has now as a belt mill factory, in fact when I started out I was actually in the ATA and after the guy that founded it our instructor disassociated himself from it. We wore those dumbass TKD gloves and booties that didn't really protect shit when "sparring' but in tournament you didn't wear any padding. Yeah, I know what you mean, two cracked ribs, a broken nose and a broken foot as testament. Still loved it, only problem was if the conditions weren't good all the fancy shit because hazardous. I got in a fight and tried to a roundhouse kick to the guys head and there was saw dust on the floor. Almost slipped and busted my ass, fortunately the guy started laughing instead of seizing the initiative, so a right hook to the face sorted that shit out. After that, in a fight I have never gone for a kick about the waist. Found that the average person can't stomach a couple of leg kicks to the thigh.
Not wanting to turn this into an MMA thread, but wanted to mention the following. Bruce Lee was a big fan of swordsmanship. He said it taught him excellent footwork. Also, Aikido is based on the defense against a samurai sword. Below a video of what I mentioned earlier about how 50% of UFC fighting does not end with grappling (BJJ).
Indeed. Muay Thai has proven that. I believe early karate kicks never went above the waist. The head-kicks came later. Head-butts are also an excellent source of self defense. Your head weighs close to what a bowling ball weighs. Some amazing 'spinning shit' on the video below.
Definitely true. I was doing padwork with a friend who had a background in Muay Thai (mine is boxing). He took me for boxing padwork and showed me how to do the correct padwork for his kicks...his first kick on the pad on my thigh and I was done lol
Feeling nostalgic and thought I'd post these songs. One was based on the story of a British Paratrooper who threw his body on an IED thrown into the lobby of a police station in Northern Ireland, he saved a few kids and the ambulance taking him away was attacked and jeered.
The second song reminds me of the style of fighting in Afghanistan/Iraq as they evolved into IED's. It was written about the aussies/kiwis during their time in Vietnam, but I feel the lyrics apply today.
Bruce was a fairly big fan of fencing for the footwork. Sadly what he was fond of was basic foil fencing, which outside of sports application isn't very practical. I've always had a leary view of Aikido, never met a practitioner that I'd consider a good source and hearing the story of old man Gene LeBell choking Steven Seagal to the point he passed out and crapped his pants kind of put it in a bad light.
The Muay Thai thing reminded me of a story I heard from an old Cuban boxer I met years ago. They took a bunch of Cuban boxers over to Thailand, now these were high level boxers, but they had them spar with the Muay Thai fighters and at first had problems with the the leg kicks until they basically said "screw it, eat the kicks and close the gap and get to doing what we do best". He said that after they started doing that more than half the Thai fighters didn't show up the next day, complained that the Cubans punched them so hard. Which I can believe, I was working with the guy and came to the realization that this old man could probably knock my ass out without dropping his cigar. Also I can somewhat believe it since I've heard similar although anecdotal stories. Though some of the stories were just as much about the fact that Western fighters tend to cut weight a hell of a lot more than the average Thai fighter. You'd have a 145lbs fight between a Thai fighter that normally walked at 150 to 155 against a Western fighter that usually walked at about 165 to 170, the size and muscle density difference was crazy, even seen it with some women's Muay Thai fights.
You said to name your rank and then didnt state yours
I think he did. U.S. Navy, Boatswain's Mate (BM).
Boatswain Mate is a rate, not a rank.
Pic you posted represents a Boatswain's Mate 2nd class
Have you been through SERE?
Interesting. I was a U.S. Army guy, so, not really my area. Did not know the U.S. Navy had a 'rate' system. Nothing like that in the Army.
Rating is your job, then you are assigned an NEC based on your area of expertise pertaining to that job.
What is your military background?
Yes, the movie is really good.
No, I did not go through SERE. In the U.S. Army, usually only Special Forces guys get to go through it. I went through Ranger school.
Me: U.S. Army, Infantry & Civil Affairs (MOS), Major (retired). Started out as an enlisted guy in 1988.
Only those who are high risk of capture go through, regardless of branch.
I dont feel comfortable saying anything other than I was in the Navy.
Thanks for your service and the movie recommendation.
Separate names with a comma.