Mixing Styles With The Same Weapons But Different Methods?

[FightGuyOpenMind]

A punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick...….but are they?

If you have experience in different styles have you ever found it difficult starting a new style or cross training in another?

Boxing may call for you to punch out of an angled stance. A karate punch may expect you to have your torso positioned in a more squared off manner.

Can these methods intertwine, or would learning one after having learned another do more harm than good?

Each style comes with its own philosophy, and reason behind its methods.

Has anyone ever had success in blending styles that presented them with the same tools but different approaches?

Are there any kicking styles that have different approaches that you successfully combined?

 

[shincheckin]

A punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick...….but are they?

If you have experience in different styles have you ever found it difficult starting a new style or cross training in another?

Boxing may call for you to punch out of an angled stance. A karate punch may expect you to have your torso positioned in a more squared off manner.

Can these methods intertwine, or would learning one after having learned another do more harm than good?

Each style comes with its own philosophy, and reason behind its methods.

Has anyone ever had success in blending styles that presented them with the same tools but different approaches?

Are there any kicking styles that have different approaches that you successfully combined?

I have not formerly trained Kyokushin, and I have not experimented with it as much as I should have. But there have been times when I used the kyokushin way of throwing a body kick, but still landing with my shin, it was very fast and effective.

Mixing styles is good and bad, I think it depends on someones knowledge, understanding, and skill level.

It also depend on what sport you are fighting. for example, I think it is better to learn pure boxing, and incorporate it yourself, rather than learn boxing for MMA. I think the same thing applies for muay thai, but there are certain things you simply cannot get into the habit of doing from boxing, in muay thai, such as a very sideways stance, or lots of bobbing weaving for example. So it takes some knoweldge. And also, it comes down to difference of opinion, I cross train in boxing and think its great. Had this same conversation with a well respected coach, and he disagrees with cross training boxing for muay thai.

Also, when I train with MMA guys, they do alot of weird "out of the box" stuff on me, its not muay thai, but it works.........some of it is not legal, but not illegal, kind of a grey area, leaning more towards illegal than legal, but still works and ok to get away with. So thats another example of cross training working, being able to think outside the box type stuff.


long story short I think cross training is good.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I have not formerly trained Kyokushin, and I have not experimented with it as much as I should have. But there have been times when I used the kyokushin way of throwing a body kick, but still landing with my shin, it was very fast and effective.

Mixing styles is good and bad, I think it depends on someones knowledge, understanding, and skill level.

It also depend on what sport you are fighting. for example, I think it is better to learn pure boxing, and incorporate it yourself, rather than learn boxing for MMA. I think the same thing applies for muay thai, but there are certain things you simply cannot get into the habit of doing from boxing, in muay thai, such as a very sideways stance, or lots of bobbing weaving for example. So it takes some knoweldge. And also, it comes down to difference of opinion, I cross train in boxing and think its great. Had this same conversation with a well respected coach, and he disagrees with cross training boxing for muay thai.

Also, when I train with MMA guys, they do alot of weird "out of the box" stuff on me, its not muay thai, but it works.........some of it is not legal, but not illegal, kind of a grey area, leaning more towards illegal than legal, but still works and ok to get away with. So thats another example of cross training working, being able to think outside the box type stuff.


long story short I think cross training is good.

Out of the box equals element of surprise. Element of surprise won Gracie the early UFCs. I agree. Unconventional can reap high rewards.

Also, it takes a strong base and knowledge to properly apply techniques with consistent positive results in different arenas. Some things do cross over well, agree with that.

Need a sound understanding to apply it however. I agree with that.

 

[William Huggins]

Mixing techniques can be done once you have achieved an understanding of the system you are using. I do find that people are usually preoccupied with finding "easier" ways of doing things, instead of fully understanding their art.

Lots of fighting skills and techniques have been lost in time............no one paying attention and oops it's gone......

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

shincheckin, just curious when you say legal/illegal, is that referring to the rules of muay thai competition? and do you have an example of what they did (like kidney punch? idk)? thanks!

 

[shincheckin]

shincheckin, just curious when you say legal/illegal, is that referring to the rules of muay thai competition? and do you have an example of what they did (like kidney punch? idk)? thanks!

Most of it is in the clinch. They use unusual hand positions and holds in the clinch from their BJJ background. They also use wrestling type tactics in regards to positioning, body control, and lifts, sweeps, slams, also tripping into takedowns, and pressure up against the cage/ropes tactics. You can sweep in muay thai, but you cannot slam, lift and slam, etc. wrestling type tactics.

I fought a guy with a wrestling background, he caught every body kick I threw, but rather than catch and sweep, he would catch and slam like in wrestling, but he would go down with me, on purpose, but because he went down with me, rather than just slamming me, he was able to get away with it. You cant catch, run and slam someone in MT, like a wrestling style takedown, but you can catch run and sweep. Dude kept slamming me. Ref didnt call it, he got away with it, it was a grey area.

you can see here how he has ahold of my right leg with his left hand for example, and then going for a sweep/slam

here he did some kind of weird twisting slam, and I ended up on top of him

more grabbing at my knee and going for a slam

wrestling type takedown

catching the kick, lots of fwd pressure to a wrestling slam

The muay thai community is so small, me and him have become friends after the fight, he is personal friends with my teammate prior to us fighting, he fought my other friend and threw him out of the ring, lol. Its one of his tactics due to his wrestling background.

heres all of us together at the saenchai seminar, his front left, im front right, girl in the glasses is my wife.

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

man, that must have been frustrating. kinda funny though that he checked the rules and would fall down with you during the slam/lift. good to hear it worked out as far as becoming friends. thanks for posting, i haven't watched much Muay Thai

 

[shincheckin]

man, that must have been frustrating. kinda funny though that he checked the rules and would fall down with you during the slam/lift. good to hear it worked out as far as becoming friends. thanks for posting, i haven't watched much Muay Thai

i have become friends with most the guys i have fought, win or loose.

 

[aerius]

Has anyone ever had success in blending styles that presented them with the same tools but different approaches?
Are there any kicking styles that have different approaches that you successfully combined?

I started TKD in my youth and stayed with it until I was most of the way through high school. Later on in my 20s I took up kickboxing and Muay Thai.
In TKD, the kicking leg comes straight up into a chamber, then the base leg & hips are turned to align the kick to the target, then you release the kick. For those not familiar with TKD, this is what it looks like.


My kickboxing and MT instructors hated the way I threw round kicks. What they taught was similar to the way Bas Rutten throws his round kicks, but worse since they got the footwork and mechanics wrong. Bas makes the kick work because he steps to the side and plants his base leg at an angle to open up the hips so that he can whip the kicking leg through, my instructors didn't teach that. They basically wanted me to be a ballerina or something and somehow lift & swing my kicking leg wide & around to the target without pivoting or stepping the base leg enough to properly open up the hips. So I'm going to pull my kicking leg off the ground and swing it in a wide arc to the target with my hips & base leg totally out of position? Ah, no. (sadly, this is how far too many MMA/kickboxing/MT places teach their round kicks).

So after trying and failing badly at the way they wanted me to round kick, I started "cheating" it back towards a TKD style. I didn't use a full chamber, but my leg would come up with a bit more of a bend in the knee than they wanted. I also went more straight up instead of out & around, and used the pivot & hip turn from TKD to open up my hips and drive the kick through the target. I got it as close to TKD as I could without having the instructors yell at me for doing it wrong, to me it felt a lot faster, more balanced, and powerful than what I was being taught.

So here I was for years thinking I had a hybrid TKD/MT round kick, that was until I started watching youtube videos of Thai stadium fights. And that's when I noticed that some Thai fighters have a round kick that was quite similar to what I was doing, Ole Kiatoneway and Singdam Kiatmoo9 are good examples I've seen of that style. Then a few more years go by and Sylvie wrote an article on what was coined the "golden kick", and I'm like "oh, dear, god. I somehow taught myself to kick like a Thai thanks to TKD".
http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/golden-kick-how-to-improve-your-thai-kick

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I started TKD in my youth and stayed with it until I was most of the way through high school. Later on in my 20s I took up kickboxing and Muay Thai.
In TKD, the kicking leg comes straight up into a chamber, then the base leg & hips are turned to align the kick to the target, then you release the kick. For those not familiar with TKD, this is what it looks like.


My kickboxing and MT instructors hated the way I threw round kicks. What they taught was similar to the way Bas Rutten throws his round kicks, but worse since they got the footwork and mechanics wrong. Bas makes the kick work because he steps to the side and plants his base leg at an angle to open up the hips so that he can whip the kicking leg through, my instructors didn't teach that. They basically wanted me to be a ballerina or something and somehow lift & swing my kicking leg wide & around to the target without pivoting or stepping the base leg enough to properly open up the hips. So I'm going to pull my kicking leg off the ground and swing it in a wide arc to the target with my hips & base leg totally out of position? Ah, no. (sadly, this is how far too many MMA/kickboxing/MT places teach their round kicks).

So after trying and failing badly at the way they wanted me to round kick, I started "cheating" it back towards a TKD style. I didn't use a full chamber, but my leg would come up with a bit more of a bend in the knee than they wanted. I also went more straight up instead of out & around, and used the pivot & hip turn from TKD to open up my hips and drive the kick through the target. I got it as close to TKD as I could without having the instructors yell at me for doing it wrong, to me it felt a lot faster, more balanced, and powerful than what I was being taught.

So here I was for years thinking I had a hybrid TKD/MT round kick, that was until I started watching youtube videos of Thai stadium fights. And that's when I noticed that some Thai fighters have a round kick that was quite similar to what I was doing, Ole Kiatoneway and Singdam Kiatmoo9 are good examples I've seen of that style. Then a few more years go by and Sylvie wrote an article on what was coined the "golden kick", and I'm like "oh, dear, god. I somehow taught myself to kick like a Thai thanks to TKD".
http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/golden-kick-how-to-improve-your-thai-kick

I don't have too much experience in the kicking department, but you may be the first person where I've heard them say something helped your MT. Most guys will swear that MT helped whatever kicking based discipline they came from, not the other way around. Thanks for sharing your insight and experiences.

 

[georgegreece]

How on earth would MT with 10 kicks help other arts with 100 kicks?

If they catch your kicks it's because you telegraph them, and you telegraph them when you don't do the spagat.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I started TKD in my youth and stayed with it until I was most of the way through high school. Later on in my 20s I took up kickboxing and Muay Thai.
In TKD, the kicking leg comes straight up into a chamber, then the base leg & hips are turned to align the kick to the target, then you release the kick. For those not familiar with TKD, this is what it looks like.


My kickboxing and MT instructors hated the way I threw round kicks. What they taught was similar to the way Bas Rutten throws his round kicks, but worse since they got the footwork and mechanics wrong. Bas makes the kick work because he steps to the side and plants his base leg at an angle to open up the hips so that he can whip the kicking leg through, my instructors didn't teach that. They basically wanted me to be a ballerina or something and somehow lift & swing my kicking leg wide & around to the target without pivoting or stepping the base leg enough to properly open up the hips. So I'm going to pull my kicking leg off the ground and swing it in a wide arc to the target with my hips & base leg totally out of position? Ah, no. (sadly, this is how far too many MMA/kickboxing/MT places teach their round kicks).

So after trying and failing badly at the way they wanted me to round kick, I started "cheating" it back towards a TKD style. I didn't use a full chamber, but my leg would come up with a bit more of a bend in the knee than they wanted. I also went more straight up instead of out & around, and used the pivot & hip turn from TKD to open up my hips and drive the kick through the target. I got it as close to TKD as I could without having the instructors yell at me for doing it wrong, to me it felt a lot faster, more balanced, and powerful than what I was being taught.

So here I was for years thinking I had a hybrid TKD/MT round kick, that was until I started watching youtube videos of Thai stadium fights. And that's when I noticed that some Thai fighters have a round kick that was quite similar to what I was doing, Ole Kiatoneway and Singdam Kiatmoo9 are good examples I've seen of that style. Then a few more years go by and Sylvie wrote an article on what was coined the "golden kick", and I'm like "oh, dear, god. I somehow taught myself to kick like a Thai thanks to TKD".
http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/golden-kick-how-to-improve-your-thai-kick

That 'golden kick' is the standard way my gym has always taught the round kick. I HATE the baseball bat approach, I get that some people say that it's good to learn both, but being realistic, you've got the muscle memory for one and you'll fire that one on instinct all the time, they're not different enough in the way that a teep and a mae geri are.

It's funny the ways that western teaches misinterpret Thai techniques. I also like the misconception that muay thai is all about low kicks.

 

[ARIZE]

Like @aerius, TKD ITF helped me a lot with my MT. The difference is that I started with MT, then went on cross training ITF.
It's the complete opposite logic of MT, so it helped me a lot on areas that are not focused so much. Speed/reflexes and flexibility made a huge step forward.
The techniques are different, but you learn to adapt, and by mixing stuff you even get your "own" style.
Some examples: I use the TKD snap round house for high kicks. My teep to the face has also a snap motion taken from the front kick. I often use the side kick... etc.

Edit:
Same goes for the "golden kick" previously mentioned, even if i love to throw a baseball bat every now and then...

 

[aerius]

It's funny the ways that western teaches misinterpret Thai techniques. I also like the misconception that muay thai is all about low kicks.

It's not so funny when the coaches are trying to "fix" you with their misinterpreted techniques. And I don't think it's good for the folks learning the sport when what they're being taught is missing key aspects of the technique. I mean, you don't have to teach the "golden kick", but at least get the base foot step out right when teaching the baseball bat style. Like, please get the mechanics right for whatever style is being taught.

 

[georgegreece]

I started TKD in my youth and stayed with it until I was most of the way through high school. Later on in my 20s I took up kickboxing and Muay Thai.
In TKD, the kicking leg comes straight up into a chamber, then the base leg & hips are turned to align the kick to the target, then you release the kick. For those not familiar with TKD, this is what it looks like.

So here I was for years thinking I had a hybrid TKD/MT round kick, that was until I started watching youtube videos of Thai stadium fights. And that's when I noticed that some Thai fighters have a round kick that was quite similar to what I was doing, Ole Kiatoneway and Singdam Kiatmoo9 are good examples I've seen of that style. Then a few more years go by and Sylvie wrote an article on what was coined the "golden kick", and I'm like "oh, dear, god. I somehow taught myself to kick like a Thai thanks to TKD".
http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/golden-kick-how-to-improve-your-thai-kick

I did a thread regarding this but it got deleted because it had that guy demonstrate the bad way roundhouses are thrown lol.

Spoiler

I find that is true in boxing as well, people are teaching the wrong way and it gets passed down, then you suddendly find out how to maximize power and "you're doing it wrong" lol.

Thot

 

[aerius]

I did a thread regarding this but it got deleted because it had that guy demonstrate the bad way roundhouses are thrown lol.

Spoiler

Question for you: What do you see that's wrong with it?

 

[j123]

here he did some kind of weird twisting slam, and I ended up on top of him

Spoiler

 

[AndyMaBobs]

It's not so funny when the coaches are trying to "fix" you with their misinterpreted techniques. And I don't think it's good for the folks learning the sport when what they're being taught is missing key aspects of the technique. I mean, you don't have to teach the "golden kick", but at least get the base foot step out right when teaching the baseball bat style. Like, please get the mechanics right for whatever style is being taught.

I get that it's not funny - but if I didn't laugh about it, I'd cry about it.

 

[georgegreece]

Question for you: What do you see that's wrong with it?

The angles are all wrong because he has no flexibility[can't straighten leg enough], the screams are obnoxious and other stuff but there's no reason writing them here.

@shincheckin

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

Thot

Man, don't insult Sylvie. She's got more fighter cred than the majority of people who will ever post on sherdog, and she's doing the Muay Thai community one hell of a service by cataloguing the things she's cataloguing.