International [NATO News] What Sweden brings to NATO as its Newest Member

Im from the UK, we dont "need" your protection. You could close all bases in the UK and we wouldnt care. We are a miltary force and can defend our island.
Your entire population could be wiped from existence with a few russian nukes. You know Russia, right? The country who has been murdering people in your neck of the woods with nerve agents? Go ahead and see how brazen they get when the US isn't there. Maybe they'll just stop with Crimea though. They wouldn't want to risk a costly war with France, right?

<{MingNope}>

Your posts bring it home to me even more strongly how you Euros take us for granted.


yeah but if you left do you think we couldnt look after ourselves? if Germany expanded to the 2% target its military would double in size and be the biggest in Europe. Along with France and the UK we can more than make up for any threats that come our way. Maybe one day your presence was necessary, but not anymore. If you want to leave..... then leave.
Whats Germany going to do? Impose sanctions?

They'll say "US, Old friends, where are you?"
 
Your entire population could be wiped from existence with a few russian nukes. You know Russia, right? The country who has been murdering people in your neck of the woods with nerve agents? Go ahead and see how brazen they get when the US isn't there. Maybe they'll just stop with Crimea though. They wouldn't want to risk a costly war with France, right?

<{MingNope}>

Your posts bring it home to me even more strongly how you Euros take us for granted.

Whats Germany going to do? Impose sanctions?

They'll say "US, Old friends, where are you?"

What's the point of all this? Yes, the U.S. plays a key role in defending the civilized world. Yay for us. Or do you think we should stop and let the world become more hostile to democracy and free markets? That wouldn't be good for us.
 
What's the point of all this? Yes, the U.S. plays a key role in defending the civilized world. Yay for us. Or do you think we should stop and let the world become more hostile to democracy and free markets? That wouldn't be good for us.
No, I've been pretty clear that I agree that the rest of the countries in NATO should be doing their share. I'd prefer we have a strong union with Europe and Eurasia but not when we pay for 75% of it.
 
Actually let me clarify- I don't really care what it costs the US so long as everyone is contributing the same %.
 
Your entire population could be wiped from existence with a few russian nukes. You know Russia, right? The country who has been murdering people in your neck of the woods with nerve agents? Go ahead and see how brazen they get when the US isn't there. Maybe they'll just stop with Crimea though. They wouldn't want to risk a costly war with France, right?

<{MingNope}>

Your posts bring it home to me even more strongly how you Euros take us for granted.



Whats Germany going to do? Impose sanctions?

They'll say "US, Old friends, where are you?"
we have nukes..... why would Russia nuke us when we would fire nukes right back? Also theres still suspicion about where they nerve agents came from because the place that keeps getting incidents is right next to our ministry of defence science lab Porton Down. So theres a chance that it has been leaked from there.

you guys dont "protect" us from anything. Behave yourself.

History should show you you really shouldnt underestimate the Germans.

Honestly if this is your attitude I hope you guys do leave, we dont want "help" from you anyway
 
No, I've been pretty clear that I agree that the rest of the countries in NATO should be doing their share. I'd prefer we have a strong union with Europe and Eurasia but not when we pay for 75% of it.

It doesn't make a difference. It's not like if Canada spends another 1% of its budget on defense, we're going to cut our defense budget. Our budget decisions are mostly independent of that kind of thing.
 
Actually let me clarify- I don't really care what it costs the US so long as everyone is contributing the same %.
well cut your budget to 2% and shut the fuck up
 
It doesn't make a difference. It's not like if Canada spends another 1% of its budget on defense, we're going to cut our defense budget. Our budget decisions are mostly independent of that kind of thing.
thats not the point. Its not the dollar amount they spend. Its the % they are expected to contribute and do not.

Like I said, without the US, NATO is nothing. The US is NATO. The least the rest of the world could do is meet their expectation.
 
thats not the point. Its not the dollar amount they spend. Its the % they are expected to contribute and do not.

Like I said, without the US, NATO is nothing. The US is NATO. The least the rest of the world could do is meet their expectation.

Yes, the U.S. is the backbone of it. I'm still not getting your point. Yes, all countries should meet their obligation (note that it's a guideline rather than a requirement for most countries), though it really doesn't matter to us. The point of NATO is that an attack on one is an attack on all, and so everyone should make a good-faith effort to be a meaningful contributor to the overall defense. But from our end, we're individually powerful enough that the other countries are irrelevant, and if the agreement weren't in place, we'd be spending more than we currently do on "defense."

It just sounds to me like Trump is going off on the subject so you've gotten the signal that you're supposed to be mad, but you don't really know what you're supposed to be mad about. Maybe it would make you feel better to know that Obama also called on our partners to meet their goals, and got a recommitment along those lines.
 
thats not the point. Its not the dollar amount they spend. Its the % they are expected to contribute and do not.

Like I said, without the US, NATO is nothing. The US is NATO. The least the rest of the world could do is meet their expectation.
they will by 2024.... as was agreed.
 
Yes, the U.S. is the backbone of it. I'm still not getting your point. Yes, all countries should meet their obligation (note that it's a guideline rather than a requirement for most countries), though it really doesn't matter to us. The point of NATO is that an attack on one is an attack on all, and so everyone should make a good-faith effort to be a meaningful contributor to the overall defense. But from our end, we're individually powerful enough that the other countries are irrelevant, and if the agreement weren't in place, we'd be spending more than we currently do on "defense."

It just sounds to me like Trump is going off on the subject so you've gotten the signal that you're supposed to be mad, but you don't really know what you're supposed to be mad about. Maybe it would make you feel better to know that Obama also called on our partners to meet their goals, and got a recommitment along those lines.
You do get my point. Its not a riddle when I say I expect the other countries to meet the standard. I refuse to go back and forth because you pretend you can't grasp what I'm saying.
 
You do get my point. Its not a riddle when I say I expect the other countries to meet the standard. I refuse to go back and forth because you pretend you can't grasp what I'm saying.

Other countries should honor their agreements, even informal ones. That's not in any way a controversial position. If that's all you're saying, fine, but you're getting all combative with everyone, and getting mad about people correcting some mistakes you've made. Like I said, it just sounds like you've picked up the cue that you're supposed to be mad, but not enough detail.
 
Other countries should honor their agreements, even informal ones. That's not in any way a controversial position. If that's all you're saying, fine, but you're getting all combative with everyone, and getting mad about people correcting some mistakes you've made. Like I said, it just sounds like you've picked up the cue that you're supposed to be mad, but not enough detail.
I'm not getting combative with anyone. You think so because I'm being forced to repeat the same thing over and over again by people pretending they don't get what I mean.
 
With the exodus of Jews to Israel it is understandable. Israel aid should be scaled up accordingly.
 
Germany's military is thinking about asking foreigners to join
Christopher Woody | Aug. 1, 2018

5a74ebd485cdd447008b4e0c

Chancellor Angela Merkel meets members of the Bundeswehr at an army barracks in Leer, Ostfriesland, Germany, December 7, 2015.


The German military, the Bundeswehr, had 21,000 unfilled positions in 2017, and the service is now looking beyond its borders to fill its ranks.

A Defense Ministry report in late 2016 proposed recruiting from other EU countries, and the ministry confirmed in late July that it was seriously considering doing so.

"The Bundeswehr is growing," a ministry spokesman told news agency DPA. "For this, we need qualified personnel."

Germany's military has shrunk since the Cold War. In 2011, the country ended mandatory military service. From a high of of 585,000 troops in the mid-1980s, the service's numbers have fallen to just under 179,000 in mid-2018.

About half of current members of the German military are expected to retire by 2030, and with an aging population, finding native-born replacements may get tougher.

German leaders have pushed to add more troops while beefing up defense spending.

In mid-2016, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen said she would remove the cap of 185,000 total troops to help make the force more flexible. She said the military would look to add 14,300 soldiers over seven years. (In early 2017, the Defense Ministry upped that to 20,000 soldiers added by 2024.)

"The Bundeswehr is under pressure to modernize in all areas," she said at the time. "We have to get away from the process of permanent shrinking."

Efforts to grow have included more recruitment of minors — a record-high 2,128 people under 18 joined as volunteers in 2017, but signing up young Germans has been criticized.

Recruiting foreigners was generally supported by the governing parties, with some qualifiers.

Karl-Heinz Brunner, a defense expert and member of the Social Democrat Party, said foreigners who join up should be promised citizenship.

"If citizens of other countries are accepted, without the promise of getting a German passport, the Bundeswehr risks becoming a mercenary army," he told German newspaper Augsburger Allegemeine.

Florian Hahn, a defense spokesman for the Christian Democratic Union, said such a recruitment model "could be developed," but "a certain level of trust with every soldier must be guaranteed."

'Germany just doesn't feel threatened'

Personnel woes are only part of the Bundeswehr's problem.

Reports have emerged in recent years of shortages of everything from body armor to tanks. German troops overseas have been hamstrung by damaged or malfunctioning equipment. A lack of spare parts has left some weapons systems unusable.

Reports of inoperable fighter jets — and insufficient training for pilots — have raised questions about whether Germany can fulfill its NATO responsibilities. As of late 2017, all of Germany's submarines were out of service, and the navy in general has struggled to build ships and develop a strategy.

Gen. Volker Wieker, the military's inspector general, said in February that the force would be ready to assume command of NATO's Very High Readiness Joint Task Force in Eastern Europe in 2019.

The Bundeswehr had a long-term plan to address "still unsatisfactory" gaps in its capabilities, Wieker said, but it would take at least a decade to recover after years of dwindling defense spending.

Defense spending is a contentious issue in Germany — one supercharged by President Donald Trump's attacks on NATO members for what he sees as failures to meet the 2%-of-GDP defense-spending level they agreed to reach by 2024.

Governing-coalition members have feuded over how to raise defense expenditures. Those in favor of a quick increase say it's needed to fix the military. Others want the money directed elsewhere and have said Chancellor Angela Merkel is doing Trump's militarist bidding.

"What we've seen in the last few years — really the sort of tragic and kind of embarrassing stories about the state of the Bundeswehr — that is certainly sinking in, and Germans are now supporting more defense spending than they have in the past," Sophia Besch, a research fellow at the Center for European Reform, said on a recent edition of the Center for a New American Security's Brussels Sprouts podcast.

"There is just this huge debate ... around the 2% [of GDP defense-spending level] being the right way of going about it," Besch added.

Some Germans also remain chastened by World War II and the Cold War, which devastated and then divided the country. The Bundeswehr still struggles with its Nazi history.

"There's a definitely a generational aspect to this," Besch said. "The sort of traditional pacifist approach ... I think is mostly permanent in the older generations."

Others just aren't that worried.

"I think the issue today is that Germany just doesn't feel threatened. Germans just don't see a threat to themselves," Besch added. "They see perhaps a threat in the East, but their relationship with Russia is complex. They just don't see the need to invest that much in defense spending."

https://www.businessinsider.com/ger...-foreigners-amid-trump-russia-tensions-2018-8
 
Last edited:
Germany's military is thinking about asking foreigners to join
Christopher Woody | Aug. 1, 2018

5a74ebd485cdd447008b4e0c-960-480.jpg

Chancellor Angela Merkel meets members of the Bundeswehr at an army barracks in Leer, Ostfriesland, Germany, December 7, 2015.


The German military, the Bundeswehr, had 21,000 unfilled positions in 2017, and the service is now looking beyond its borders to fill its ranks.

A Defense Ministry report in late 2016 proposed recruiting from other EU countries, and the ministry confirmed in late July that it was seriously considering doing so.

"The Bundeswehr is growing," a ministry spokesman told news agency DPA. "For this, we need qualified personnel."

Germany's military has shrunk since the Cold War. In 2011, the country ended mandatory military service. From a high of of 585,000 troops in the mid-1980s, the service's numbers have fallen to just under 179,000 in mid-2018.

About half of current members of the German military are expected to retire by 2030, and with an aging population, finding native-born replacements may get tougher.

German leaders have pushed to add more troops while beefing up defense spending.

In mid-2016, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen said she would remove the cap of 185,000 total troops to help make the force more flexible. She said the military would look to add 14,300 soldiers over seven years. (In early 2017, the Defense Ministry upped that to 20,000 soldiers added by 2024.)

"The Bundeswehr is under pressure to modernize in all areas," she said at the time. "We have to get away from the process of permanent shrinking."

Efforts to grow have included more recruitment of minors — a record-high 2,128 people under 18 joined as volunteers in 2017, but signing up young Germans has been criticized.

Recruiting foreigners was generally supported by the governing parties, with some qualifiers.

Karl-Heinz Brunner, a defense expert and member of the Social Democrat Party, said foreigners who join up should be promised citizenship.

"If citizens of other countries are accepted, without the promise of getting a German passport, the Bundeswehr risks becoming a mercenary army," he told German newspaper Augsburger Allegemeine.

Florian Hahn, a defense spokesman for the Christian Democratic Union, said such a recruitment model "could be developed," but "a certain level of trust with every soldier must be guaranteed."

'Germany just doesn't feel threatened'

Personnel woes are only part of the Bundeswehr's problem.

Reports have emerged in recent years of shortages of everything from body armor to tanks. German troops overseas have been hamstrung by damaged or malfunctioning equipment. A lack of spare parts has left some weapons systems unusable.

Reports of inoperable fighter jets — and insufficient training for pilots — have raised questions about whether Germany can fulfill its NATO responsibilities. As of late 2017, all of Germany's submarines were out of service, and the navy in general has struggled to build ships and develop a strategy.

Gen. Volker Wieker, the military's inspector general, said in February that the force would be ready to assume command of NATO's Very High Readiness Joint Task Force in Eastern Europe in 2019.

The Bundeswehr had a long-term plan to address "still unsatisfactory" gaps in its capabilities, Wieker said, but it would take at least a decade to recover after years of dwindling defense spending.

Defense spending is a contentious issue in Germany — one supercharged by President Donald Trump's attacks on NATO members for what he sees as failures to meet the 2%-of-GDP defense-spending level they agreed to reach by 2024.

Governing-coalition members have feuded over how to raise defense expenditures. Those in favor of a quick increase say it's needed to fix the military. Others want the money directed elsewhere and have said Chancellor Angela Merkel is doing Trump's militarist bidding.

"What we've seen in the last few years — really the sort of tragic and kind of embarrassing stories about the state of the Bundeswehr — that is certainly sinking in, and Germans are now supporting more defense spending than they have in the past," Sophia Besch, a research fellow at the Center for European Reform, said on a recent edition of the Center for a New American Security's Brussels Sprouts podcast.

"There is just this huge debate ... around the 2% [of GDP defense-spending level] being the right way of going about it," Besch added.

Some Germans also remain chastened by World War II and the Cold War, which devastated and then divided the country. The Bundeswehr still struggles with its Nazi history.

"There's a definitely a generational aspect to this," Besch said. "The sort of traditional pacifist approach ... I think is mostly permanent in the older generations."

Others just aren't that worried.

"I think the issue today is that Germany just doesn't feel threatened. Germans just don't see a threat to themselves," Besch added. "They see perhaps a threat in the East, but their relationship with Russia is complex. They just don't see the need to invest that much in defense spending."

https://www.businessinsider.com/ger...-foreigners-amid-trump-russia-tensions-2018-8


here an idea.....this might be crazy! How about they pay the 2% and stop being pussy ass bitches? I know, grow a sack?

Fucking idiots....
 
Canada expected to spend even less on defence in 2018 than last year, NATO report says
By Lee Berthiaume , The Canadian Press| July 10, 2018



OTTAWA – Even as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau prepares to defend against U.S. President Donald Trump’s demands that Canada invest more in defence, a new NATO report suggests Canadian military spending as a percentage of GDP will fall sharply this year.

Canada is expected to spend an estimated 1.23 per cent of its GDP on defence in 2018 – down from 1.36 per cent last year, says the annual report, which looks at military investments for all member states.

The decline is largely the result of two one-time expenses last year, said National Defence spokesman Daniel Le Bouthillier, one of which was a retroactive pay increase for service members that was included in the Liberal government’s defence policy.

The other was more unexpected: a $1.8-billion payment into the account that provides pensions for Forces members and their dependents.

“Canada continues to place a premium on tangible operational contributions,” Le Bouthillier said in a statement, “as well as on demonstrating a commitment and capacity to deploy and sustain personnel in support of the NATO alliance.”

The department’s explanation makes sense, said defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, calling it laudable that the government is investing more in pay and pensions for service members.

But the report comes at a sensitive time for Trudeau, given Trump’s persistent calls on NATO allies to increase their defence spending to two per cent of GDP – as members first agreed back in 2014.

The U.S. president is expected to push the matter hard when he sits down Wednesday in Brussels with Trudeau and other NATO leaders.

“The prime minister is saying that Canada is doing great things,” Perry said. “Only now, he will have to explain why spending has gone down.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/4324547/canada-spending-less-defence-nato-report/



Considering how big canada is they should spend at least 2.6...
 
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