New Lynching Memorial Offers Chance to Remember and Heal

slavery was immoral by today's standards, but only a minuscule amount of the entire country thought so in the 1800's. If you believe the North really cared about slaves, I can provide overwhelming evidence to show otherwise.

I'm not talking about 1861. I'm talking about TODAY. Today everyone but you neo-Confederates (with your close pals in the klan and probably some neo-nazis) agree that slavery was immoral.

Look at all the excuse making you've done in this thread. It's absolutely sick and even astonishing that people can still hold backwards ass beliefs like this in 2018. All because you just can't bear to admit that some ancestor of yours from 150 years ago did something bad.
 
If you're in the South, and it's post civil war, you're just going to take your family and walk to the North?

You have no money
You have no support
You have mouths to feed
You have no place to stay on the road
There ARE angry veterans who would love to "Talk" to you and yours

Better to roll with the Hell you know.

A ton of families did though
 
slavery was immoral by today's standards, but only a minuscule amount of the entire country thought so in the 1800's. If you believe the North really cared about slaves, I can provide overwhelming evidence to show otherwise.

Actually, a lot of people thought slavery was immoral in the 1800s. There's also overwhelming evidence to support this. Just one abolitionist organization, the American Anti-Slavery Society, had almost 1500 local chapters. Also, growing moral concern over slavery does much to explain the success of the fledgling republican party in the ante-bellum years.

Moral concern over slavery was never a majority opinion. But it was very far from miniscule.
 
@TheGZA - Confederate black soldiers.

'It has been estimated that more than 65,000 Southern blacks served in some form or fashion in the Confederate ranks. As the war was nearing its final days, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back its ranks with the creation of the Confederate Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, but this idea came too late for any measure of success.'



H.K. Edgerton, a member of the 'Sons of Confederate Veterans' will be the keynote speaker at an event to dedicate a headstone for an African-American Confederate soldier.

This is insanely misleading.

Blacks served in the Confederacy as *enslaved* persons who cooked, cleaned, and worked for Confederate regiments and their officers. They were not legally allowed to fight. There is not any evidence I am aware of that black Americans—enslaved or free—fought Union soldiers under Confederate banners.

You may find a few scattered anecdotes of such happening, but to attempt to portray some narrative that blacks in general were fighting alongside their Confederate (white) brothers in an effort to defeat the Union is absolutely asinine.
 
Provide a source that says a significant number of slaves stayed with their masters after they were free. When you find that source read why that may have been the case.
What is the point you are trying to make with this completely random stat and why have you tagged me?

No, you can Google the source yourself. For both statements. A random statistic? Please. We are discussing blacks being lynched by whites when the reality is that more blacks are being killed by each other in gang and drug wars than they were by lynching. Black-on-black killing. Maybe we need a memorial for that also.
 
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but is what is being discussed a memorial for black victims of white slavery in the Reconstruction and Jim Crow eras? A monument to victims of lynching?

If so, I am for it. Human evil needs to be remembered and studied, not as a stick to beat our neighbors with (which is inevitable, unfortunately) but as a reminder to each individual to be vigilant against evil in their own hearts.
 
Blacks served in the Confederacy as *enslaved* persons who cooked, cleaned, and worked for Confederate regiments and their officers. They were not legally allowed to fight. There is not any evidence I am aware of that black Americans—enslaved or free—fought Union soldiers under Confederate banners.

Yep, I knew someone was going to say that.

Link: http://www.thomaslegion.net/black_confederate_soldier_and_african_american_soldiers.html

"So why did so many Southern black men choose to wear Confederate gray?"

"Blacks fought for the very same reason as whites – to defend their homes and their families. Historical data can sometimes be a matter of interpretation and the facts can sometimes contradict themselves. But, one must remember that day and time and judge it accordingly, for a man of the 19th century should not be compared to a man of today’s world and evaluated by current standards. Regardless of how black Southerners participated, whether voluntary or involuntary, one thing is certain: the thousands of slaves and free persons of color in the South are the most forgotten group of the Civil War. They, too, should be remembered for the suffering, sacrifices and contributions they made."
 
And there it is. You make a claim, and refuse to support it.
Provide a source that says a significant number of slaves stayed with their masters after they were free.

...man, you are lazy. Here you go:

Link 01: https://www.quora.com/How-many-slaves-stayed-with-their-masters-after-emancipation-and-why

Link 02: https://www.theroot.com/why-did-free-blacks-stay-in-the-old-south-1790897284

Link 03: https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.31c2187108b7
 
Ok. What is the nuance?
Just want to jump in to point out the precarious plurality Lincoln was banking on. 1860 was a damn mess. Douglas was establishment and very strong, and even though Lincoln made him eat his "Popular Sovereignty" misfortune for breakfast, it was still not clear that the Republicans would pull enough Northern Democrats to prevent the election from going to the lawmakers, which could have been a major problem.

The coalition of Lincoln had a lot of anti-slavery in it, like the Germans and the literal Abolitionists. The Whigs had a strong conscience against slavery- though their actual political history was in support of compromise to solve it, backing the approach of Henry Clay- they were shifting toward a position just flatly against it. The Free Soilers were also a party of conscience, but believed that containment (rather than just compromise) would choke out slavery. The whole coalition supporting the Republicans was anti-slavery, and had different ideas as to how to get it done.

Combine the lack of a coherent party plan for the best way to end slavery with facing massive electoral pressure in the North, and there simply was no way to become an outright abolitionist party at the time. It was politically impossible. That's a really thin place to make a moral judgment, considering that a war of secession was going to be the automatic response to abolition. It's easy to say that the North may as well have just taken the path to war, but Lincoln wanted to hold the country together if he could. Most of the problem with the politics was the result of weak, negligent piece of shit presidents preceding him.
 

There you go. Now read your sources (even though two appear to be blogs), and come back and answer your own question like I asked in the post of mine you just edited.

Provide a source that says a significant number of slaves stayed with their masters after they were free. When you find that source read why that may have been the case.
 
I'm not talking about 1861. I'm talking about TODAY. Today everyone but you neo-Confederates (with your close pals in the klan and probably some neo-nazis) agree that slavery was immoral.

Look at all the excuse making you've done in this thread. It's absolutely sick and even astonishing that people can still hold backwards ass beliefs like this in 2018. All because you just can't bear to admit that some ancestor of yours from 150 years ago did something bad.
Where have I defended slavery?
 
Yep, I knew someone was going to say that.

Link: http://www.thomaslegion.net/black_confederate_soldier_and_african_american_soldiers.html

"So why did so many Southern black men choose to wear Confederate gray?"

"Blacks fought for the very same reason as whites – to defend their homes and their families. Historical data can sometimes be a matter of interpretation and the facts can sometimes contradict themselves. But, one must remember that day and time and judge it accordingly, for a man of the 19th century should not be compared to a man of today’s world and evaluated by current standards. Regardless of how black Southerners participated, whether voluntary or involuntary, one thing is certain: the thousands of slaves and free persons of color in the South are the most forgotten group of the Civil War. They, too, should be remembered for the suffering, sacrifices and contributions they made."

Re-read that quote. It basically says a whole lot of nothing.

The author simply makes this one empty declaration - that blacks must've fought for the Confederacy because they wanted to defend their family and property. For one, slaves didn't have "homes and families" as they were subject to be traded or sold on the whims of their masters. The rest has nothing to do with offering any kind of support for his premise, and instead simply says they were important, and a forgotten facet to the Civil War. The people who were massacred at My Lai were also an important facet of the VN war, but somehow I don't think that's a defense of what occurred.

All of this has nothing to do with the narrative you implied. The truth is that blacks in the Civil War were still slaves. They were there to clean up and work for the Confederate soldiers. That's hardly the altruistic endeavor you seemed to suggest of blacks being allowed to march arm in arm with their Southern white brothers to protect the 'not-so-bad' institution of slavery.
 
Where have I defended slavery?

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Do you have any idea what the African slave's condition was prior to being brought to America?

This was in response to someone challenging you about what it must've felt like to be considered someone's property, which means to have family members ripped apart, shuffled around, beaten, given scraps of food, raped, worked like a dog, and basically treated like an animal etc etc etc.

Your answer to this was the above. As if you are saying that just because someone was raped in the past, it's totally ok for me to physically abuse them, because that's not as bad as rape, and in fact, by literal definition, it would be an "improvement" of their living conditions.

A sane person would acknowledge that owning another human being is disgusting. Instead, you provided a justification that it may have been better than where they came from.
 
Just want to jump in to point out the precarious plurality Lincoln was banking on. 1860 was a damn mess. Douglas was establishment and very strong, and even though Lincoln made him eat his "Popular Sovereignty" misfortune for breakfast, it was still not clear that the Republicans would pull enough Northern Democrats to prevent the election from going to the lawmakers, which could have been a major problem.

The coalition of Lincoln had a lot of anti-slavery in it, like the Germans and the literal Abolitionists. The Whigs had a strong conscience against slavery- though their actual political history was in support of compromise to solve it, backing the approach of Henry Clay- they were shifting toward a position just flatly against it. The Free Soilers were also a party of conscience, but believed that containment (rather than just compromise) would choke out slavery. The whole coalition supporting the Republicans was anti-slavery, and had different ideas as to how to get it done.

Combine the lack of a coherent party plan for the best way to end slavery with facing massive electoral pressure in the North, and there simply was no way to become an outright abolitionist party at the time. It was politically impossible. That's a really thin place to make a moral judgment, considering that a war of secession was going to be the automatic response to abolition. It's easy to say that the North may as well have just taken the path to war, but Lincoln wanted to hold the country together if he could. Most of the problem with the politics was the result of weak, negligent piece of shit presidents preceding him.
I agree that Lincoln was morally against slavery, but he didn't care enough about it to wage war over it. His concern was keeping the Union together, even if it meant shitting all over the Constitution to do it.

Also, in the 1864 election, Democrats charged the Republicans with favoring blacks. The Republicans needed to separate themselves from this idea, so they took steps at deflecting. They abandoned the "Republican" label and ran under the "National Union Party", which was a transparent attempt to make loyalty to the Union, rather than showing support for Emancipation. Next, they removed the current vice-president, from the ballot. Hannibal Hamlin was considered a radical and even supposedly a mulatto. They replaced him with Andrew Johnson, a Southern Unionist, who was known to hate slaveholders and slaves alike. Johnson would later would later proclaim in the 1867 State of the Union address that blacks possessed “less capacity for government than any other race of people. No independent government of any form has ever been successful in their hands. On the contrary, wherever they have been left to their own devices they have shown a constant tendency to relapse into barbarism."


In the presidential election of 1864, Lincoln received 2,216,067 votes, while McClellan received 1,808,725 votes; the latter receiving very nearly as many votes in the Northern States alone as Lincoln had received in the whole country when he was elected in 1860, his vote at that time being only 1,866,352. These votes included soldiers in the Union, who one would expect to vote in favor of the cause in which they were fighting.


So, if the people in the North were overwhelmingly supportive of Lincoln’s cause, it didn’t translate according to their voting. Nearly one-half of the voters in the North voted against Lincoln.

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Quotes by Abraham Lincoln on race and slavery:

“I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.”- Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861


“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.” - Abraham Lincoln, First Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Ottawa, Illinois, August 21, 1858


“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.” - Abraham Lincoln's response to Horace Greeley, editor of the New York Tribune’s, editorial to Lincoln called "The Prayer of Twenty Millions," making demands and implying that Lincoln's administration lacked direction and resolve.


In his 1858 4th debate with Sen. Steven Douglas, Lincoln maintained, “And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”


while debating Douglas in 1858, Lincoln declared the following: “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.” - The Lincoln-Douglas Debates, 4th Debate Part I


“I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.” - Abraham Lincoln (1809–1865). Political Debates Between Lincoln and Douglas 1897. Page 252


When addressing the Dred Scott Decision of 1857, Lincoln quoted the following: “There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races … A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas…” - Speech on the Dred Scott Decision, Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Springfield, Illinois, June 26, 1857


“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]---that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife.”

—Lincoln's Fourth Debate with Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858


“I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union.”
  • Taken from Lincoln’s Letter to James C. Conkling, August 26, 1863.
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From "The Life of Billy Yank" by Bell Irvin Wiley”, here are a couple of snippets from his book:

"Some fought to free slaves, but a polling of the rank and file through their letters and diaries indicated that those whose primary object was the liberation of slaves comprised only a small part of the fighting forces. It seems doubtful that one soldier in ten at any time during the conflict had any real interest in emancipation per se. A considerable number originally indifferent or favorable to slavery eventually accepted emancipation as a necessary war measure, but in most cases their support appeared lukewarm. Even after the Emancipation Proclamation zealous advocates of African American freedom were exceptional" (p.40)

"In marked contrast to those whose primary interest was in freeing the slaves stood a larger group who wanted no part in a war of emancipation. A soldier newspaper published at Williamsburg, Virginia, in 1862, which carried on its masthead the motto, "The Union Forever and Freedom to all", stated in its first issue: In construing this part of our outside heading let it be distinctly understood that 'white folks' are meant. We do not wish it even insinuated that we have any sympathy with abolitionism".

"Some Yanks opposed making slavery an issue of the war because they thought the effect would be to prolong the conflict at an unjustifiable cost in money and lives. Others objected on the score of the slaves ignorance and irresponsibility, while stills others shrank from the thought of hordes of freedmen settling in the North to compete with white laborers and to mix with them on terms of equality. The opposition of many seemed to have no other basis than an unreasoning hatred of people with black skins". (Pg. 42)

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In 1830, William Lloyd Garrison, a prominent American abolitionist, was not safe in Boston either. An angry mob came to an anti-slavery lecture and proceed to lynch him. He was dragged through the streets, his clothes being torn off. He was finally rescued by the Boston Police who took him to jail. The crowd followed and demanded he be turned over to them. The police were finally able to sneak Garrison out of town.

Riots followed him and his fellow abolitionists everywhere: New York, Philadelphia, Utica, Albany, and Providence, Rhode Island.

After his release from jail in 1830, Garrison returned to Boston where he joined the American Colonization Society, an organization that promoted the idea that free blacks should emigrate to Africa. When it became clear that most members of the group did not support freeing slaves, but just wanted to reduce the number of free blacks in the United States, Garrison withdrew from membership.

Garrison faced stubborn opposition throughout the North. Influential Unitarians thought slavery was no concern of Northerners. Presbyterians refused to preach against slavery. A majority of Baptist ministers refused. In 1836, the General Conference of the Methodist Church ordered members not to participate in anti-slavery agitation. Bills to restrict abolitionist literature were introduced in the legislatures of Connecticut, Maine, New Hampshire and Rhode Island. Free blacks were banned in Illinois, Iowa, Indiana and Oregon. A Marblehead, Massachusetts mob wrecked the printing press and home of publisher Amos Dresser who had previously suffered a public lashing for abolitionist agitation in Nashville. In New Canaan, New Hampshire, local people used oxen to drag a school into a nearby swamp, because the teacher was educating black children. A pro-slavery mob burned down Pennsylvania Hall, an abolitionist gathering place on Philadelphia’s Sixth Street between Race and Arch Streets, and then the mob torched an orphanage for black children.

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The Liberty Party was a minor political party in the United States in the 1840s (with some offshoots surviving into the 1860s). The party was an early advocate of the abolitionist cause and it broke away from the American Anti-Slavery Society (AASS) to advocate the view that the Constitution was an anti-slavery document. William Lloyd Garrison, leader of the AASS, held the contrary view that the Constitution should be condemned as an evil pro-slavery document. The party included abolitionists who were willing to work within electoral politics to try to influence people to support their goals. By contrast, the radical Garrison opposed voting and working within the system. Many Liberty Party members joined the anti-slavery (but not abolitionist) Free Soil Party in 1848 and eventually helped establish the Republican Party in the 1850s.


The Liberty Party nominated James G. Birney, a Kentuckian and former slaveholder, for President in 1840 and 1844. The second nominating convention was held in August 1843 in Buffalo, New York. The Liberty Party platform of 1843 resolved "to regard and to treat" the fugitive slave clause of the Constitution "as utterly null and void, and consequently forming no part of the Constitution of the United States" on grounds of "natural right" (natural law). It also contained the following plank:

The Liberty Party...will demand the absolute and unqualified divorce of the general [i.e., federal] government from slavery, and also the restoration of equality of rights among men, in every State where the party exists, or may exist.


The party did not attract much support. In the 1840 election, Birney received only 6,797 votes and in the 1844 election 62,103 votes (2.3% of the popular vote).

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These are just a few examples of attitudes in the North at that time.
 
Refer to post #133 above.

"Black people kill more black people every six months than the KKK did in 86 years." Los Angeles, Chicago, and Detroit.

@nac386

Hmm....

And here I was thinking that we were talking about the post civil war South...

th
 
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This was in response to someone challenging you about what it must've felt like to be considered someone's property, which means to have family members ripped apart, shuffled around, beaten, given scraps of food, raped, worked like a dog, and basically treated like an animal etc etc etc.

Your answer to this was the above. As if you are saying that just because someone was raped in the past, it's totally ok for me to physically abuse them, because that's not as bad as rape, and in fact, by literal definition, it would be an "improvement" of their living conditions.

A sane person would acknowledge that owning another human being is disgusting. Instead, you provided a justification that it may have been better than where they came from.
Actually, where they came from was slavery or death, so, their condition was at worst the same as where they came from. Also, there were many justifications for slavery:


They argued that if all the slaves were freed, there would be widespread unemployment and chaos. This would lead to uprisings, bloodshed, and anarchy. They pointed to the mob's "rule of terror" during the French Revolution and argued for the continuation of the status quo, which was providing for affluence and stability for the slaveholding class and for all free people who enjoyed the bounty of the slave society.


They argued that slavery had existed throughout history and was the natural state of mankind. The Greeks had slaves, the Romans had slaves, and the English had slavery until very recently.


They noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it.


Defenders of slavery turned to the courts, who had ruled, with the Dred Scott decision, that slaves had no legal standing as persons in our courts — they were property, and the Constitution protected slaveholders' rights to their property.


They argued that the institution was divine, and that it brought Christianity to the heathen from across the ocean. Slavery was, according to this argument, a good thing for the enslaved. John C. Calhoun said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."


They argued that by comparison with the poor of Europe and the workers in the Northern states, that slaves were better cared for. They said that their owners would protect and assist them when they were sick and aged, unlike those who, once fired from their work, were left to fend helplessly for themselves.


African slaves were captives or already slaves before they were shipped to America. In most cases, prisoners of West African tribal wars were sold into slavery. Some were enslaved as punishment for crimes or indebtedness. Others were kidnapped by black slave traders. Defenders of slavery would argue that their treatment in America was far more humane than that of Africa.


However, my intention is not to defend slavery, it is an institution that can't be defended. These were views from a different time. My intention is to show that the North was in no way the morally conscious saints that we are led to believe they were. That the war was far more complicated than just "slavery".


“So the case stands, and under all the passion of the parties and the cries of battle lie the two chief moving causes of the struggle. Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this, as of many other evils. The quarrel between the North and South is, as it stands, solely a fiscal quarrel.”

Charles Dickens,
“All The Year Round”
December 28, 1861



"The pretense that the "abolition of slavery" was either a motive or justification for the war, is a fraud of the same character with that of "maintaining the national honor." Who, but such usurpers, robbers, and murderers as they, ever established slavery? Or what government, except one resting upon the sword, like the one we now have, was ever capable of maintaining slavery? And why did these men abolish slavery? Not from any love of liberty in general -- not as an act of justice to the black man himself, but only "as a war measure," and because they wanted his assistance, and that of his friends, in carrying on the war they had undertaken for maintaining and intensifying that political, commercial, and industrial slavery, to which they have subjected the great body of the people, both black and white. And yet these imposters now cry out that they have abolished the chattel slavery of the black man -- although that was not the motive of the war -- as if they thought they could thereby conceal, atone for, or justify that other slavery which they were fighting to perpetuate, and to render more rigorous and inexorable than it ever was before. There was no difference of principle -- but only of degree -- between the slavery they boast they have abolished, and the slavery they were fighting to preserve; for all restraints upon man's natural liberty, not necessary for the simple maintenance of justice, are of the nature of slavery, and differ from each other only in degree".

From No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority, (Chapter XIX) by Lysander Spooner a leading abolitionist of the era.
 
Is it possible to remember and also not blame slavery/white people for all your problems and lack of desire to build a healthy family? Is it possible to remember and not hate white people and or desperately try to guilt trip them and call them racist all the time?

Is it possible to remember without being reminded every few months/year?

PfHOxQN.gif
 
This is insanely misleading.

Blacks served in the Confederacy as *enslaved* persons who cooked, cleaned, and worked for Confederate regiments and their officers. They were not legally allowed to fight. There is not any evidence I am aware of that black Americans—enslaved or free—fought Union soldiers under Confederate banners.

You may find a few scattered anecdotes of such happening, but to attempt to portray some narrative that blacks in general were fighting alongside their Confederate (white) brothers in an effort to defeat the Union is absolutely asinine.
I haven't found any credible evidence that blacks fought for the Confederacy. Especially early on, like you said, it was illegal. However, it was brought up late in the war, but if it ever happened, I'm unaware.
 
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