Official Judo Thread VIII

[Zankou]

Koka.

 

[QingTian]

first

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Since I can't quote mself bcos of the lock....

@QingTian:
That's just what I was taught to call it. Back of tori's knee pushes
side of uke's knee.
Plus, aside from just being lucky enough to be in the proper
position already, to get in position to throw it, you need to do a
tai otoshi-style entry then cut across uke's body towards the far
side. There are enough small differences (in entry, kuzushi, and
reap) that I feel that there should be a distinction.
I never claimed that it should be officially recognized by the
Kodokan, just that what I was taught is not o soto as it's
commonly pictured.

 

[doyourkegles22]

Judo, I need it today. Ate some wings yesterday and feel like a slob now.

 

[QingTian]

Since I can't quote mself bcos of the lock....

@QingTian:
That's just what I was taught to call it. Back of tori's knee pushes
side of uke's knee.
Plus, aside from just being lucky enough to be in the proper
position already, to get in position to throw it, you need to do a
tai otoshi-style entry then cut across uke's body towards the far
side. There are enough small differences (in entry, kuzushi, and
reap) that I feel that there should be a distinction.
I never claimed that it should be officially recognized by the
Kodokan, just that what I was taught is not o soto as it's
commonly pictured.

It is not good to to reap at the knee. That is an injury waiting to happen. Also in general you should aim for backwards unless right vs. left or Kimura style (who may have developed this way to compensate for a lapel grip instead of sleeve).

Right vs. left.

[YT]watch?v=YsZE7p3tyXU[/YT]

"Kimura" style. Note he does not attack the knee. The heel attacks about uke's ankle level. This is a very brutal method and you won't make friends doing this. So unless you are as scary as him or Kimura, stick to textbook osoto. I watched him demo it in person and was very thankful I was not uke (he's throwing a lot nicer in this vid).

[YT]watch?v=_xqrGekbCnE[/YT]

 

[QingTian]

Plus, aside from just being lucky enough to be in the proper
position already, to get in position to throw it.

I think from this quote my previous post was missing the point and leading you to double down on attacking from the side.

What I mean is, you should investigate how to get someone in proper position. That will pay off far more dividends in your Judo.

You don't need to be lucky. You create your openings.

Similarly, textbook backwards osoto is available to you if you learn how to create it. Once you have the proper kuzushi and tsukuri, you can take your sweet time to finish the throw because uke will not escape. So focus on that instead of throw variations.

 

[RJ Green]

this is where the traditionalist and i disagree. i believe wholeheartedly that learning a throw in only one context limits your game. this osoto debate is a perfect example - yeah, you should be able to do the classic, orthodox osotogari.

should that be the only way you do ostogari? no.

is that the only way to osotogari? no.

is one way more correct than the other? yeah, the way that works best in that circumstance.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

It is not good to to reap at the knee. That is an injury waiting to happen. Also in general you should aim for backwards unless right vs. left or Kimura style (who may have developed this way to compensate for a lapel grip instead of sleeve).

It's my tokui waza.

Aside from the odd seoi nage or ashi waza, yo soto is the throw I end up hitting 90% of the time. Not once have I hurt someone's knee.

I think from this quote my previous post was missing the point and leading you to double down on attacking from the side.

What I mean is, you should investigate how to get someone in proper position. That will pay off far more dividends in your Judo.

You don't need to be lucky. You create your openings.

Similarly, textbook backwards osoto is available to you if you learn how to create it. Once you have the proper kuzushi and tsukuri, you can take your sweet time to finish the throw because uke will not escape. So focus on that instead of throw variations.

I create my opening for yo soto by doing the initial tai otoshi step. Also, I know how to do classic o soto (though I make no claims to be the best at it), but I prefer a variation I was taught simply because it happens to work for me... a lot.

That said, coming from a combat sports background, which stretches far beyond my judo training, somewhere, somehow, and sometimes you just end up getting lucky. There's simply no way to completely control how your opponents react, and oftentimes, how they react to the stimuli they receive ends up in your favor, in spite of your lack of intent.

 

[QingTian]

It's my tokui waza.

Aside from the odd seoi nage or ashi waza, yo soto is the throw I end up hitting 90% of the time. Not once have I hurt someone's knee.

Not to be an ass, but your two statements do not prove anything. You are basically saying, "it hasn't happened to me yet, and I've been doing Judo for ___ long" and "___" is not a very long time.

It's fundamental anatomy that the knee does not bend to the side. At some point you will damage someone's ligaments. If not an outright tear, then a slow weakening over time.

The only reason you haven't hurt someone now is you haven't built up enough power or haven't met someone with weak knees.

If you don't want to take it from me, this guy says the same thing at 2:02.

[YT]watch?v=OHfPO84cwO8[/YT]

 

[QingTian]

this is where the traditionalist and i disagree. i believe wholeheartedly that learning a throw in only one context limits your game. this osoto debate is a perfect example - yeah, you should be able to do the classic, orthodox osotogari.

should that be the only way you do ostogari? no.

is that the only way to osotogari? no.

is one way more correct than the other? yeah, the way that works best in that circumstance.

Not about tradition. It's about diagnosing the root cause of the problem rather than looking for short cuts. Furthermore I gave examples of when you should attack from the side.

Anti-traditionalists need to get over themselves and see that there is a reason things are done the way they are.

 

[The Karate Man]

Subbing. Can't remember if I mentioned this on the past thread, but I've been preparing for a BJJ tourney on the 10th, and I'm going to do my damn best to get a highlight reel Judo throw. I'm also going to try footsweeps. I think a well-timed De Ashi Barai might be the dark horse that nobody expects in a BJJ tourney.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Not to be an ass, but your two statements do not prove anything. You are basically saying, "it hasn't happened to me yet, and I've been doing Judo for ___ long" and "___" is not a very long time.

I admit that had shades of a non sequitur, and I am a rank noob compared to you, and most Sherdoggers ITT, but you are an admitted traditionalist who likely practices only the classical versions of moves, amirite?

You're talking theory, and I'm talking practice.

I'm actually more afraid of my uke's knees when I do tai otoshi.

It's fundamental anatomy that the knee does not bend to the side. At some point you will damage someone's ligaments. If not an outright tear, then a slow weakening over time.

You mean it's fundamental kinesiology that the knee does not bend to the side.

I'm fully aware of this fact.

[/MAXIMUMPEDANTRY]

The only reason you haven't hurt someone now is...

...because I don't do it in the manner shown in the video. At 2:02, he was showing how not to reap if you're going for the classic o soto.

Again, I cut across the body from the far side, my lapel side pushes up under the armpit, my sleeve side pulls uke towards me, end result is ALL of their weight on that one leg. The reap seals the deal.

Your doomsday scenario only becomes a possibility if I don't get proper kuzushi, and I keep fighting to reap when too much of their weight is on their other leg. I never fight to get the reap. I just immediately go to (k)o uchi.

btw, has Riner ever jacked up someone's knee in competition before? He's a big fan of that o soto variation as well.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Not about tradition. It's about diagnosing the root cause of the problem rather than looking for short cuts. Furthermore I gave examples of when you should attack from the side.

Anti-traditionalists need to get over themselves and see that there is a reason things are done the way they are.

Isn't everything in this post the antithesis of the very ideals Jigoro Kano believed in?

The entire reason there's literally dozens of different types of throws is because Kano was a strong believer in experimentation and doing what worked. He couldn't beat Fukushima Kanekichi with what he knew, so he went out, learned a new move, and beat him with it. We now call that kata guruma.

I practice the classic o soto, but I can't get it to work for me in randori/shiai, so I learned a variation (taught to me by my head coach, btw) that does work for me. If it's good enough for Kano and my coach... what's the problem?

 

[doyourkegles22]

I already want to go back to the old thread.


Good luck Karate man on your tournament. I hope you hit a bad ass throw, don't fail us!

 

[Mcmoon]

Subbing. Can't remember if I mentioned this on the past thread, but I've been preparing for a BJJ tourney on the 10th, and I'm going to do my damn best to get a highlight reel Judo throw. I'm also going to try footsweeps. I think a well-timed De Ashi Barai might be the dark horse that nobody expects in a BJJ tourney.

The step back ko uchi is probably one of the easiest footsweeps (for me anyway) without putting yourself in any real danger.

 

[RJ Green]

Anti-traditionalists need to get over themselves and see that there is a reason things are done the way they are.

[YT]3AyMyVAY5XE[/YT]

if we did things your way, the sport would never evolve.

 

[RJ Green]

Isn't everything in this post the antithesis of the very ideals Jigoro Kano believed in?

nope. my 6'4" gaijin ass needs to throw morote the same way all the 5'5" japanese do. tradition matters, morphology be damned.

 

[doyourkegles22]

Leave us short guys out of this!

...Wait, i'm 5'4 that likes to throw uchimata and tai otoshi.

 

[QingTian]

btw, has Riner ever jacked up someone's knee in competition before? He's a big fan of that o soto variation as well.

If you believe competitors don't hurt each other, you're seriously mistaken. More often than not they will retire will serious injuries, commonly knee injuries, because of attitudes similarly found on this forum. Enjoy.

 

[QingTian]

Isn't everything in this post the antithesis of the very ideals Jigoro Kano believed in?

The entire reason there's literally dozens of different types of throws is because Kano was a strong believer in experimentation and doing what worked. He couldn't beat Fukushima Kanekichi with what he knew, so he went out, learned a new move, and beat him with it. We now call that kata guruma.

I practice the classic o soto, but I can't get it to work for me in randori/shiai, so I learned a variation (taught to me by my head coach, btw) that does work for me. If it's good enough for Kano and my coach... what's the problem?

No, it means that 100 years of collective Judo knowledge has made it so that the probability of a beginner finding a better way is nearly zero.

I've also experimented with all sorts of osoto and other throws as a beginner. The textbook throws won out in the end. They are a treasure trove of knowledge.

In Kano's time Judo was rudimentary. He was made master in what, 2 years in each art? Some of that wouldn't pass muster for a shodan today, like old newaza wouldn't pass for a BJJ blue.