Official Judo Thread X: Triple Weave Edition

[Zankou]

When double weave just isn't enough.

 

[BKR]

What counts for what?
I said I have certain number, gaven to me by professional judogi manufacturer KuSakura (the owner's son), who happen to be olympic sponsor for Rio 2016.
Im not talking about structure differences, private/ government or whatever.
As i said, just the number of 3 countries regular practitioners, without even counting the law enforcement practitioners and the students, is higher then the entire IBJJF, which is the biggest BJJ federation in the world.
That was written as an answer to the guy, quoted in the post, suggesting that judo practitioners are very few, globally.
How and why is this post interpreted, is beyond me. It was clear to who I was talking and what I was refering to.

Sorry I somehow missed the original context, or misinterpreted it.

Sorry about that !

 

[BKR]

Big backstep tai otoshi can work, but I had that problem for years and years with Tai Otoshi. One of the coaches in BC is an expert, and he does not do the backstep at all. Throws to the corner as suggested. That really opened my eyes on Tai Otoshi, even though I got the whole weight shift to the crossing leg thing way before that. The other thing is to get the weight onto the lead leg of uke. Opening to the front corner instead of all the way around on the back step gets that done much more easily.

 

[BKR]

is the drag down, or snap down a legit scoring technique in judo? Basically, you try to pull uke forward toward you and down and try to get on top and over, and just drop your weight on him, and squash him to his knees and hands.

Also I have been experimenting with this grip. I get the lapel, and then I reach around back either over or under uke's other arm and grab back just above the belt. What do you think of this grip? Is it advantageous. I think it gives me good control, I also also feel like there is an hip throw counter to this.

Snapping a guy down to his face/front is not a scoring technique in Judo. If you get too violent about it you could be penalized. It is a valid entry to matwork, though.

That grip is a specialized grip in Judo. If your hand crosses over the centerline of his back, you have to attack more or less right away or get a penalty.

If you can make it work, it's good.

 

[YellowFury]

I'm loving the triple weave

 

[BKR]

Are there any obvious negatives to lapel-grip ippon seoinage in comparison to sleeve-grip ippon seoinage?

No, I'd say the lapel side is the stronger of the two, for competition at least. Less slack in the jacket.

My primary throw (used to be) Seoi Nage, and I almost always used the lapel side Ippon Seoi Nage (or Morote) to best success.

 

[QingTian]

No punch and no backstep video:

[YT]watch?v=i-oNQrLg33c[/YT]

 

[BKR]

The reason I mention attacking right away is that when you have that high sleeve grip over the top uke has an underhook with his power hand, and if you just hang out there you're probably going to get thrown. It's a very double edged position. But when I say 'attack' I don't mean you just randomly throw a foot out or start turning. I mean you have to start initiating an attack right away to keep the initiative, though that attack could certainly be breaking uke's balance and getting him moving to set up a throw. What you can't do is wait, because if you do you're susceptible to a very strong attack from uke because he has that underhook which you've given him.

Quoted for truth. I tell my students when an opponent gets a "non standard" grip, they had better be ready for something to happen quickly.

I've been teaching that sequence and over/underhooks (relating to the sutemi waza and harai goshi in Nage No Kata), and doing drills where they experiement with how to throw and avoid/neutralize the overgrip/underhooks.

I saw that play out in video of their competition from this weekend. One girl used both very effectively in her matches. In one, a taller opponent kept going for the big overhand/crushing neck/back of shoulder grip. My student would punch out, slip, and switch to the overgrip to recover and get sleeve control.

She tossed the girl for ippon with a left side Harai Goshi/Osoto/Ashi Guruma hybrid throw, in fact, after slipping the overhand grip and getting an underhook with her left arm. The other girl was totally open and vulnerable.

One of the good things about practicing turning both directions...

 

[Uchi Mata]

I still think you should have called it 'Revenge of Marius Vizer'

 

[BKR]

yep. I think training with bad uke has given me bad habits . I have been told by the head coach I have a tendency to be spastic and lose control when I meet resistance.

Apparently some of the lower belts complain I throw too hard and not with control

So how long have you been doing Judo, what "rank" are you ?

 

[Chungungo]

Do it like in this video and you can avoid needing to punch. I don't know how to do the punch version, but it seems to me like an adjustment made to get uke to turn. Well, why not avoid that and throw to the corner instead?

[YT]watch?v=HM5ZpiJjTCs[/YT]

I love that old man, when I get I do it like him sometimes..

^ yup

i think a lot of schools over-emphasize the backstep to a fault, which in turn weights the wrong foot, which causes uke to be pulled into tori.

i've been pretty successful in helping folks clean up their tai otoshi by thinking about stomping across and pushing tori over their leg, as opposed to stepping back and trying to *pull* tori over their leg.

not that the backstep is the inferior tai otoshi, but a lot of people seem to approach that legwork as uchimata or harai where most of the weight is on the leg underneath of them.

Actually I never had the problem in the legs, it was my hands all the time, I couldn´t getting right---

No punch and no backstep video:

[YT]watch?v=i-oNQrLg33c[/YT]

Awesome, punching works for that guy in my dojo who´s very good with it but not for me, I have never done it in such a narrow stance, usually is like this ---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6C79XS9T4Y

 

[BKR]

Also, since I was talking about it a few days ago:



Very interesting that it's less about power and more about a specific setup to get the bear hug grips. I can't wait to try this.

Nice action reaction sequence he did there. It's not a good idea to stand their with your arms up in the air like his opponent did.

And to be pedantic, that wasn't Ura Nage, not that it really matters in the end.

 

[kpoz12]

mY EXotick "NINTENDO 64 stAr foxx 'do a barrel" roll defnce 2 a judo flip

 

[BKR]

Ya, that's why I prefer the lapel-grip over the sleeve-grip. It lets me get much closer and tighter.

But I'm worried that a preference for the lapel-grip over the sleeve-grip for these reasons can be stunting personal growth. It's not like I'm Koga and going for the world championships or anything, so maybe I should just stick to sleeve-grip for training purposes.

This is what I usually do. I practice both. What a concept, eh ?

I'm a righty, so I did mostly left Ippon Seoi from a right grip. That's not the overgrip version, but it works and is relatively easy to do (against a righty, at least). I would then do sleeve side right Ippon Seoi, overgrip and undergip, depending on which grip sequence I was doing. They all have/had specific circumstances.

 

[Chungungo]

Big backstep tai otoshi can work, but I had that problem for years and years with Tai Otoshi. One of the coaches in BC is an expert, and he does not do the backstep at all. Throws to the corner as suggested. That really opened my eyes on Tai Otoshi, even though I got the whole weight shift to the crossing leg thing way before that. The other thing is to get the weight onto the lead leg of uke. Opening to the front corner instead of all the way around on the back step gets that done much more easily.

Can you send me the name of the sensei please?
I lived in Victoria BC but want to visit the province again one day...

 

[CrossedLine]

Also, since I was talking about it a few days ago:



Very interesting that it's less about power and more about a specific setup to get the bear hug grips. I can't wait to try this.

Fantastic video, like tricks like that!

One of my best setups for the underhook is using the gripbreak on your own elbow, not sure how common this technique is but I've seen it used. So if they grab your sleeve, you bring up your arm, bending it so your hand is behind your head or neck, and position the point they're gripping on right at your elbow. Bring it across, so away from their hand across your body a little, then sharply back out (stepping back if needed) to break their grip, kind of looks like that crappy dance move the sprinkler. Gets them offbalanced, sometimes surprised, and almost always vulnerable to an advantage grip whether it be under (my preferred) or over.

 

[RJ Green]

bravo zanky

 

[BKR]

Not obvious ones, but there is a major disadvantage if you look at Judo as a whole versus just comparing seoi types.

A lapel grip is better for forward pulls, but that limits your directions and control of uke. Instead of developing smooth and flowing combinations, you become reliant on explosive bursts and fakes. Worse, you might not learn how to properly use your tsurite and be one of those seoi players who get shut down whenever their opponent has a sleeve grip.

Learning how to off balance uke with the standard grip is a long investment, but can be worthwhile depending on your goals.

There is definitely good reason not to try to be a Koga clone at the start. Koga himself had very good fundamentals and still teaches the basics.

Great post, and for a beginner I agree. I tend towards Tsuri Komi Goshi for the strong side throw for beginners (after O Goshi), and Sode Tsurikomi Goshi for the weak side, or both until a dominant side develops.

My thing is you need to know how to turn/throw to each side, and throw the guy either way. You don't have to be as good with both a right and left sleeve/lapel grip, but be able to use the sleeve lapel either way (hence the Sode TKG), and usually offside Ippon Seoinage. I've seen too many guys get locked into turning only left or right in the beginning (happened to me, decades ago, took me a long time to fix that).

Koga does indeed stress fundamentals. He developed his unique style due to an injured elbow, if I recall correctly.

The need to develop a good standing seoi nage is also critical to be able to do a Seoi Otoshi (aka knee-drop seoi nage) correctly and well. If you get the positioning and control down for standing really well, then the drop tends to come pretty naturally. Otherwise, you end up "spamming" drop seoi aka the good old "flop and drop".

 

[CrashStitches]

Top 10 finishes from the Abu Dhabi Slam, including one of the most brutal osotos I've seen lately.

[YT]Q8MS9gjO44Q[/YT]

 

[Gorbag]

What are you guys calling a high shoulder grip? Like an armpit grip?

I cannot remember any specific name of the grip that I described in my post above, its a grip on the front where the pectoralis meet the deltoids, so you'll touch the front delt with your fist when applying it. When attacking you may grab over the back with the other hand. I learned this way to grip from a hollandese heavyweight that used the same grip on both sides, but without grabbing the back. He spesialized in sasae and harai tsuri- komi-ashi to both sides while being very strong defensive...

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Why stop there? Quadruple weave.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

So how long have you been doing Judo, what "rank" are you ?

4 years but I have been inconsistant.

 

[Kaffe]

Man, I loved that kata guruma.

 

[The Karate Man]

Can't wait until Thursday. Going to be my first time to actually train in damn near a year. The military has kept me so busy. Going to train with some Shotokan guys in Jasper, TX.
Maybe my Ashi Waza game is still on point and I can catch some guys off guard like I used to.

 

[Zankou]

Well since it's thread version X, I thought the triple-weave, triple-X theme fit well. Quadruple X, not so much.

 

[Chungungo]

you get less reel/unreel at the end of the throw with the lapel grip. it's easier for uke to hit the roundoff since his arm isn't caught, and you can't unfurl into the armbar unless you've also gotten the underhook under their armpit and release the lapel grip for the wrist grip and proceed.

but

you can always get the underhook on the lapel from your own grip by pulling it over your own bicep, which is super slick. it's not as preferential kazushi-wize because you're still not gonna get the same pop or rotation of uke as they come onto their toes like they would from the elbow grip.

the choi is legit since when done properly it traps uke's arm between your bodies as you're going over. instead of an airfall uke has to backfall, which is much harder to flail out of given the transit time is much shorter and the trajectory is less apparent.

as a beginner, it's better to learn seoi nage the right way. in randori you're gonna gravitate towards moves that are easier to pull off against a resisting opponent because you'll feel better about the learning curve, but that's like bombing blue diamonds instead of trying double-black.

developing the kazushi to off-balance uke with the elbow grip is something i think is necessary and esoteric to judo. there are so many throws that benefit from that motion, and developing the strength for that sudden, snappy pull along the proper timing for entry is gonna help progress your judo much moreso than trying to grab cloth and whip around like a banshee.

Nice post, fundamentals always pay in the long term even if some guys don´t see that but can you explain please the blue diamonds phrase xD ?
Sorry I like to understand very well the posts and phrases like that make my learning confuse haha

 

[QingTian]

Awesome, punching works for that guy in my dojo who´s very good with it but not for me, I have never done it in such a narrow stance, usually is like this ---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6C79XS9T4Y

I have mixed feelings about the last video. I know it's effective, but to me tai otoshi falls into a group of throws that are most effective using uke's momentum. So trying to statically break down uke is not optimal. You can deliver a lot more power in static situations with uchimata, for example.

I am not so good left vs. right with tai otoshi yet, having just recently picked up this throw, so it will be interesting to discover what other solutions there are. I much prefer a fluid movement scenario, but that is difficult to maintain left vs. right.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Like this?

[YT]hrH_gM81CXg[/YT]

Kashiwazaki made a career out of these kinds of moves, but it's a very specialized style. I characterize that sort of thing as really good to have in your back pocket, but probably not the best choice for a go-to move.

That vid is more like a tomoe nage right? What I mean is you get uke hunched over, and then drop your weight onto the top of his back, and just squash him down to his hands and knees.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

I've expanded my off-mat judo game to included ken ken footwork when I get tripped on equipment at work, for those moments when ukemi just isn't an option. With my off-mat carioca, tai sabaki, and ukemi I swear I'm better at judo off the mats than on.

 

[QingTian]

Great post, and for a beginner I agree. I tend towards Tsuri Komi Goshi for the strong side throw for beginners (after O Goshi), and Sode Tsurikomi Goshi for the weak side, or both until a dominant side develops.

My thing is you need to know how to turn/throw to each side, and throw the guy either way. You don't have to be as good with both a right and left sleeve/lapel grip, but be able to use the sleeve lapel either way (hence the Sode TKG), and usually offside Ippon Seoinage. I've seen too many guys get locked into turning only left or right in the beginning (happened to me, decades ago, took me a long time to fix that).

Koga does indeed stress fundamentals. He developed his unique style due to an injured elbow, if I recall correctly.

The need to develop a good standing seoi nage is also critical to be able to do a Seoi Otoshi (aka knee-drop seoi nage) correctly and well. If you get the positioning and control down for standing really well, then the drop tends to come pretty naturally. Otherwise, you end up "spamming" drop seoi aka the good old "flop and drop".

Oi! I've got another bit of homework from your posts. My weak side is primarily ashiwaza, not turning throws. I can do a seoi but hardly use it. I don't think I've ever hit a sode before.

It's not hard, I don't think. I can do the throws fine statically. But I just don't have the movement pattern for it, and also I've been the lanky type so seoi and sode weren't my focus.

Maybe I'll take a white belt and practice double lapel harai goshi, heh heh.

 

[jonpall]

Guys, what do you think about practising uchi mata like this (main point is deep first step) ? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BITx48jIoPs

Another very similar form of the throw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTk2C0vVMLs

 

[MadSquabbles500]

That grip is a specialized grip in Judo. If your hand crosses over the centerline of his back, you have to attack more or less right away or get a penalty.

If you can make it work, it's good.

What kind of throws do you think are good from there.

 

[RJ Green]

reffed our state games yesterday

...remembered why I switched to BJJ :icon_chee

 

[Thai Otoshi]

BKR, what's your rank?

 

[RJ Green]

uchimata is such a popular throw i feel it gets silver-bullet-ed more than most.

one-stepping or using novel grips isn't wrong...unless you've never learned the throw to begin with.

it seems that especially with this throw, citrus belts look for shortcuts or gimmicks in order to throw something bearing a passing resemblance to uchimata. it may work during uchikomi or kata, but it won't work in randori.

 

[RJ Green]

What kind of throws do you think are good from there.

obi tori gaeshi, which is the throw in that video above. it looks like tomoenage, but you're using your instep in their crotch instep of your foot in their belly, and your vectors are limited.

harai goshi
uchimata
hip tosses

What I mean is you get uke hunched over, and then drop your weight onto the top of his back, and just squash him down to his hands and knees.

we know what you mean, it's not a throw. it's not even scoring. a bad referee might even dream up some bullshit penalty to give you.

fwiw - if you can't identify basic wrestling/judo moves, you shouldn't be worrying yourself with novel technique. i'm not saying you should NEVER LEARN them, but it seems like you're in the 'silver bullet' phase of your judo career.

don't neglect developing your judo fundamentals to score points in randori.
don't go searching for mysterious techniques to pull on unsuspecting citrus belts.

if you show up to judo practice and try to snap people down until you can lay on them, you're wasting time. yours and everyone else's.

 

[CrossedLine]

reffed our state games yesterday

...remembered why I switched to BJJ :icon_chee

Why did you? Stalling/turtling or what?

 

[QingTian]

as a beginner, it's better to learn seoi nage the right way. in randori you're gonna gravitate towards moves that are easier to pull off against a resisting opponent because you'll feel better about the learning curve, but that's like bombing blue diamonds instead of trying double-black.

developing the kazushi to off-balance uke with the elbow grip is something i think is necessary and esoteric to judo. there are so many throws that benefit from that motion, and developing the strength for that sudden, snappy pull along the proper timing for entry is gonna help progress your judo much moreso than trying to grab cloth and whip around like a banshee.

Dang, we are textbook bros! Want to do 1000 osotogari uchikomi?

 

[jonpall]

Interestingly, most uchimatas in competition clips seem to be done with a deep entry step. Sometimes it looks like an ouchi gari setup but sometimes it's just a step in.

 

[BKR]

I cannot remember any specific name of the grip that I described in my post above, its a grip on the front where the pectoralis meet the deltoids, so you'll touch the front delt with your fist when applying it. When attacking you may grab over the back with the other hand. I learned this way to grip from a hollandese heavyweight that used the same grip on both sides, but without grabbing the back. He spesialized in sasae and harai tsuri- komi-ashi to both sides while being very strong defensive...

Sounds like what is commonly called an "armpit grip".

 

[RJ Green]

they're worried about juniors trying to bridge out of throws, so bridging on the head is an ippon and bridging on the shoulders is a wazari.

...so a lot of what looked like a yuko at best to me was apparently a wazari.

i do dig the push to change the rules though. i don't know if IJF's been reading my bitching but they're gonna start calling shidos in real time. also, other people have come to the independent conclusion that wristbands with colors would solve the hell out of so much signaling confusion, i'm hoping we eventually ditch the dinner jackets.

attendance was down too. granted most of the Judo is done at colleges and most colleges are on summer break, but i was lucky enough to play in some deep brackets when i was a lowly citrus belt and it made me a better player. i can't help but think a lot of people got sick of getting scolded for rashguards and 'pulling the head' and made the switch...

 

[RJ Green]

can you explain please the blue diamonds phrase xD ?

it's a skiing/snowboarding analogy - people will hit a point where they can simply go down an easy run as fast as possible, rather than develop the technical skill necessary for advanced terrain.

you can be happy. you can claim proficiency, but if that's all you do there's so much to miss.

 

[QingTian]

It is a way to do uchimata with the back grip. It works, but is one dimensional.

 

[BKR]

That vid is more like a tomoe nage right? What I mean is you get uke hunched over, and then drop your weight onto the top of his back, and just squash him down to his hands and knees.

Kashiwazaki was/is famous for his Yoko Tomoe Nage (side-tomoe Nage). The video is about the other thing he is famous for, called Hikkomi Gaeshi (pulling reversal), AKA Obi Tori Gaeashi (belt grab reversal).

You refer to the common "snap down" a schoolboy/freestyle takedown. Which, again, does not score in Judo rules.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

Is it polite to ask your instructor about possible promotion and testing for a new belt? I've been officially the same kyo rank for 3 years now.

 

[magick]

RJ Green and QingTian-

Thanks for the posts. I agree with y'all; hence the post. I think lapel grip works for me simply because it's so much tighter, and so proper entry and kuzushi isn't as necessary.

But I do intend to actually start with local competitions soon and think there would be benefits in getting to actually throwing people. I don't do a whole lot of that with the standard lapel grip, particularly because I got virtually nothing but browns and blacks to play with, most of whom literally have decades of experience over me.

 

[BKR]

Can you send me the name of the sensei please?
I lived in Victoria BC but want to visit the province again one day...

He is in Prince George...

here is one with him showing kenka yotsu situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdKkUp8lIWo

 

[BKR]

What kind of throws do you think are good from there.

You have it backwards, what kind of Judo can you do now ?

Lots of throws can work well from an over the back grip, cross or otherwise.

 

[RJ Green]

Is it polite to ask your instructor about possible promotion and testing for a new belt? I've been officially the same kyo rank for 3 years now.

at the same place? how often do you train/compete?

if you frame it in the 'am i ready' or 'how can i get ready' most people should be really cool about letting you know one way or another.

 

[RJ Green]

1:09

if he wasn't gonna stick that ippon uke's got the RNC all day. that's why proper placement and control of uke's arm is so important, and also why you don't see roll-through seoi nage in bjj tournaments.

seoi nage's one of those throws where you can definitely see the battlefield application, either off of an inside parry or when disarmed against chopping down at you. i like to pretend that's why *proper* judo incentives the sleeve grip and standing throws since you're ideally controlling their weapon and gaining the positional advantage to stab a bitch. same with someone jumping on your back while standing.

 

[BKR]

No punch and no backstep video:

[YT]watch?v=i-oNQrLg33c[/YT]

I like how he moves to the side rather than directly in front of uke. Depending on who is learning the throw, I find that positioning to be effective. it avoids uke strength and gets tori in position to push instead of pull.

 

[BKR]

obi tori gaeshi, which is the throw in that video above. it looks like tomoenage, but you're using your instep in their crotch instep of your foot in their belly, and your vectors are limited.

harai goshi
uchimata
hip tosses




we know what you mean, it's not a throw. it's not even scoring. a bad referee might even dream up some bullshit penalty to give you.

fwiw - if you can't identify basic wrestling/judo moves, you shouldn't be worrying yourself with novel technique. i'm not saying you should NEVER LEARN them, but it seems like you're in the 'silver bullet' phase of your judo career.

don't neglect developing your judo fundamentals to score points in randori.
don't go searching for mysterious techniques to pull on unsuspecting citrus belts.

if you show up to judo practice and try to snap people down until you can lay on them, you're wasting time. yours and everyone else's.

I'll add, snapping people down hard in training or randori will piss everybody off as well, especially other beginners/novices. As it's not a scoring "technique" in judo, there is not a lot of point in doing it, especially for a beginner novice. You'd also find it very difficult to do to anybody with decent posture and gripping.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

at the same place? how often do you train/compete?

if you frame it in the 'am i ready' or 'how can i get ready' most people should be really cool about letting you know one way or another.

Ive been training consistently but not all the three years have been at the same place.

Side note : about how many years does it take about to get a brown belt, in judo ?

 

[CrossedLine]

Really glad we stumbled on this topic. Recently I've been doing righty-grip unorthodox ippon-seoinage. I believe that's what we're referring to? Holding lapel with right hand and left hand coming under as the hook in the armpit (pardon my terminology). It's been working like a dream in competitions but I don't know whether it's technique or the guys just haven't seen it at my level (Green and below). Is that throw considered a trick? I know some people look down on drop seoi-nage when done improperly, I'd rather not use a move as a crutch.

 

[BKR]

I love that old man, when I get I do it like him sometimes..

Actually I never had the problem in the legs, it was my hands all the time, I couldn´t getting right---



Awesome, punching works for that guy in my dojo who´s very good with it but not for me, I have never done it in such a narrow stance, usually is like this ---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6C79XS9T4Y

You need to consider that the video of two step tai otoshi you posted is demonstrated in kenka yotsu.

 

[Jonas g33k]

It took me 24 years.
Started judo at 5 got it at 29. (I had a long break)

 

[The Karate Man]

What's up guys? I'm back. (If anyone even remembers me) Been doing a lot of training for the military and that's been consuming most of my time.

EDIT: This is post number 666. What a great first post back on Sherdog.

 

[QingTian]

You need to consider that the video of two step tai otoshi you posted is demonstrated in kenka yotsu.

BKR, any other ways you like to do tai otoshi in kenka yotsu? The issue for me is I do not particularly like to do tai otoshi with a low sleeve grip, but that is often all you get in kenka yotsu. To achieve the same amount of pull, I could try throwing further away from uke and drawing his arm out for that, but that presents it's own host of problems.

 

[Thrawn33]

Side note : about how many years does it take about to get a brown belt, in judo ?

Brown as in Sankyu? Three years, 6x a week, competing heavily (for me at least) was ready for nikyu when I got transferred, the no judo for 3 years, then established myself at new club, got injured, off two years, made nikyu early this year.

Kyu grades are like Shodan. So much variation in criteria among different clubs.

 

[BKR]

4 years but I have been inconsistent.

OK, thanks, that helps to put things in context.

 

[BKR]

I have mixed feelings about the last video. I know it's effective, but to me tai otoshi falls into a group of throws that are most effective using uke's momentum. So trying to statically break down uke is not optimal. You can deliver a lot more power in static situations with uchimata, for example.

I am not so good left vs. right with tai otoshi yet, having just recently picked up this throw, so it will be interesting to discover what other solutions there are. I much prefer a fluid movement scenario, but that is difficult to maintain left vs. right.

Fluid movement makes everything work better...

But that isn't always possible, of course.

The initial attack is used to create the opening and momentum you speak of.

Another part not being discussed is that tori has the inside grip in the kenka yotsu situation, so the initial attack/movement is much more effective. Without the inside lapel grip uke can more effectively maintain distance and shut down the entry.

Ouchi to Tai Otoshi is a "classic" opposite grip attack sequence.

 

[shunyata]

they're worried about juniors trying to bridge out of throws, so bridging on the head is an ippon and bridging on the shoulders is a wazari.

...so a lot of what looked like a yuko at best to me was apparently a wazari.

i do dig the push to change the rules though. i don't know if IJF's been reading my bitching but they're gonna start calling shidos in real time. also, other people have come to the independent conclusion that wristbands with colors would solve the hell out of so much signaling confusion, i'm hoping we eventually ditch the dinner jackets.

attendance was down too. granted most of the Judo is done at colleges and most colleges are on summer break, but i was lucky enough to play in some deep brackets when i was a lowly citrus belt and it made me a better player. i can't help but think a lot of people got sick of getting scolded for rashguards and 'pulling the head' and made the switch...

Man, fuck the IJF. I had a national level IJF ref call an ippon on me when I spun out in mid air and landed on one hip belly down with my back up at maybe a 30 degree angle. It was so bad the other kids coach was bitching out the ref more than mine (also bitching mightily) and asking to reset and continue. They maintained the ippon decision.

 

[BKR]

Oi! I've got another bit of homework from your posts. My weak side is primarily ashiwaza, not turning throws. I can do a seoi but hardly use it. I don't think I've ever hit a sode before.

It's not hard, I don't think. I can do the throws fine statically. But I just don't have the movement pattern for it, and also I've been the lanky type so seoi and sode weren't my focus.

Maybe I'll take a white belt and practice double lapel harai goshi, heh heh.

Ashiwaza is good too, of course. I like to have all my students be able to do say, left Sasae TKG from their strong grip to weak side, and/or Hiza Guruma.

You will need to experiment with what works for your body type and uke availability. If you can find a guy or gal as tall as you, you can practice left turning throws pretty easily.

The sode grip is useful for ashi waza. Try left Ashi Guruma, Uchi Mata, or even Osoto Gari and see what happens. Start off slow and easy because the control is a bit different. You don't want to hurt your uke, plus, make sure your uke knows what is coming as a LOT of people don't fall so well from the sode grip/position.

 

[BKR]

BKR, any other ways you like to do tai otoshi in kenka yotsu? The issue for me is I do not particularly like to do tai otoshi with a low sleeve grip, but that is often all you get in kenka yotsu. To achieve the same amount of pull, I could try throwing further away from uke and drawing his arm out for that, but that presents it's own host of problems.

The problem in kenka yotsu is two fold, and it does not have so much to do with a particular variation of how to do Tai Otoshi.

1.) If you do not have inside lapel grip, or some sort of crushing outside control, it becomes more difficult to do Tai Otoshi, because the tsurite in Tai Otoshi is essentially your body contact/point of control (analogous to the chest/side contact in say, Uchi Mata or Harai Goshi). So Tai Otoshi may not be the best throw for kenka yotsu, depending on the grip situation.

2.) Uke is maintaining distance by his front leg, keeping you from getting into position. You have to get that leg out of the way, or go around it somehow. Once you do that, you can do your throw, Tai Otoshi or otherwise.

3.) You are not going to pull anybody off balance. The low sleeve grip is of course what you end up with if you get it at all against a skilled opponent, and it usually ends up in a stalemate in that case anyway. If you look at the Two Step Tai Otoshi video, he isn't pulling so much, he uses his body and positioning to apply force to uke. That is very often the case in opposite grips, you don't/can't use the classic high pull hikite (that doesn't really work that often, anyway, with a resisting opponent regardless of grip). You want to pin the weight on uke lead leg, then drop him over that (otoshi).

When I work against a lefty, I work for inside lapel position using different grip attacks combined with movement and ashi waza. I'm short, so working from outside with an outside crushing type grip isn't realistic for me very often. I will work to control his lead arm to get to the lapel. When leg grabs were legal, I used them a LOT, to "soften up"/attack lefties. Now it's movement and ashi waza, or at least going after their feet.

If you are tall/strong, you can go over the top, but that won't be the best thing for Tai otoshi.

 

[shunyata]

I still think you should have called it 'Revenge of Marius Vizer'

This is sort of random, but were you just in LA and dropped in at Hayastan? Just trained/rolled with an Armenian brown belt judoka from Colorado and had the dejavu feeling after leaving "Did I just uchikomi/roll with an f12er?"

 

[BKR]

BKR, what's your rank?

Sandan, USA Judo.

 

[BKR]

Guys, what do you think about practising uchi mata like this (main point is deep first step) ? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BITx48jIoPs

Another very similar form of the throw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTk2C0vVMLs

I suggest the basic form of Uchi Mata, based on basic front turn tsurikomi action. Work on your Tsurikomi Goshi to get to that point, and the Uchi Mata and Harai Goshi will come along with your ability to control your weight and uke weight while on one leg.

I don't find it productive to come up with special beginner level methods for a difficult throw like Uchi Mata. Once you let people get dependent on the around the neck grip, it's a tough habit to break, as that is a specialized gripping method.

Most beginners dont' need to be worrying about Uchi Mata in any case.

This stuff takes time, and if you mess it up at first, there are long term hard to fix consequences.

 

[kpoz12]

No love for my rare throw escape gif?

 

[BKR]

RJ Green and QingTian-

Thanks for the posts. I agree with y'all; hence the post. I think lapel grip works for me simply because it's so much tighter, and so proper entry and kuzushi isn't as necessary.

But I do intend to actually start with local competitions soon and think there would be benefits in getting to actually throwing people. I don't do a whole lot of that with the standard lapel grip, particularly because I got virtually nothing but browns and blacks to play with, most of whom literally have decades of experience over me.

Didn't judoka_UK tell you guys to stop thinking about kuzushi ?

I'm sure he must have...

 

[BKR]

Interestingly, most uchimatas in competition clips seem to be done with a deep entry step. Sometimes it looks like an ouchi gari setup but sometimes it's just a step in.

The basic thing that goes on in competition (higher level, at least) is that tori makes a movement(s), and then reacts to what happens. Somebody may or may not get thrown. Some things are set-piece for specific situations, as well.

So, the basic movement is a front turn step from a useful grip (for example, sleeve control and inside lapel grip). You make that initial attack, uke reacts to rear, you switch to Ouchi/Kouchi (inside resistance), or Osoto/Hiza Guruma/STKA, or some sort of makikomi/lever-lowering action with your legs, and so on...

The deep leg entry is used IMO and IME because it is extremely difficult to do any sort of meaningful "kuzushi" on equally/highly skilled judoka (that is relative, of course, to you and your opponent!). So, what you see is tori gets a useful grip on uke so that he is locked up, more or less, makes the turn/entry deeply, and THAT effects the "kuzushi".

Going under with tori body weight and down gets past uke blocking/strength. In the case of Uchi Mata, it's a force couple type throw (two opposed forces applied to uke in opposite directions, to the head/upper body and his lower body/inside thigh...think Osoto Gari in reverse). So, once you are in and locked up, you follow through with the force couple action.

That sort of entry takes incredible timing, flexibility, and balance. You watch some of the guys who do it and wonder how they don't break while making the entry.

That doesn't mean we mere mortals can't benefit from getting a deeper back step, but be realistic about your expectations, especially if you are watching high level judo videos.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

I got my ikkyu after 4-5 years then my shodan a few months after.

It's cool kpoz, just not very rare.

 

[BKR]

Really glad we stumbled on this topic. Recently I've been doing righty-grip unorthodox ippon-seoinage. I believe that's what we're referring to? Holding lapel with right hand and left hand coming under as the hook in the armpit (pardon my terminology). It's been working like a dream in competitions but I don't know whether it's technique or the guys just haven't seen it at my level (Green and below). Is that throw considered a trick? I know some people look down on drop seoi-nage when done improperly, I'd rather not use a move as a crutch.

Yeah, that's it. Part of your success may be due to your opponents being unfamiliar with that application, plus or minus you might be pretty good at it.

It's not a trick at all. It's good you are practicing it that way.

If you are dropping and doing it well it's not a crutch. If you are doing an opposite side Seoi Otoshi, then I'm sure you are probably really surprising your opponents.

My experience is though that it can be a "crutch", so make sure your standing seoi is solid. Given your stated rank, that may take a while longer.

Your coach can advise you on that sort of thing, as he watches you do Judo.

 

[Chungungo]

I have mixed feelings about the last video. I know it's effective, but to me tai otoshi falls into a group of throws that are most effective using uke's momentum. So trying to statically break down uke is not optimal. You can deliver a lot more power in static situations with uchimata, for example.

I am not so good left vs. right with tai otoshi yet, having just recently picked up this throw, so it will be interesting to discover what other solutions there are. I much prefer a fluid movement scenario, but that is difficult to maintain left vs. right.

Of course, my sensei tells me that all the time , specially because I am the tallest and one of the heaviest but for uchikomi I was open my legs way too wide, I´ll do it this time from now on and whenever I get Tai otoshi is in moving oponent...

He is in Prince George...

here is one with him showing kenka yotsu situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdKkUp8lIWo

Pretty cool, I have always wanted to know Prince George, too bad is freaking cold on January or February-

uchimata is such a popular throw i feel it gets silver-bullet-ed more than most.

one-stepping or using novel grips isn't wrong...unless you've never learned the throw to begin with.

it seems that especially with this throw, citrus belts look for shortcuts or gimmicks in order to throw something bearing a passing resemblance to uchimata. it may work during uchikomi or kata, but it won't work in randori.

What is the meaning of silver bulleted ?
I only can get the leg Uchimata, is easier for a taller guy I guess, the classical japanese should be learned for gokyo of course but never works for me in randori...