Official Judo Thread

[Kenny from MD]

Had a cool light Sunday session with my two Judo coaches to prep myself and two teammates for the tournament this Saturday. We went over some basic strategy, the rules, and ran some mock matches so we know the formalities of when to bow, etc. I am sure I am going to get dinged once or twice (if I last long enough to get a shido) but I think I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on now, and didn't get any penalties during the mock matches. I just have to remember not to break grips two handed, and that I can't use a body lock with my hands clasped to throw ura nage.

 

[Thycidides]

Had a cool like Sunday session with my two Judo coaches to prep myself and two teammates for the tournament this Saturday. We went over some basic strategy, the rules, and ran some mock matches so we know the formalities of when to bow, etc. I am sure I am going to get dinged once or twice (if I last long enough to get a shido) but I think I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on now, and didn't get any penalties during the mock matches. I just have to remember not to break grips two handed, and that I can't use a body lock with my hands clasped to throw ura nage.

I've trained with one of the judo coaches from 50/50. Good luck man

 

[ArtemV]

Abe has to have some of the cleanest technique right now. He has the best sode tsurikomi goshi now.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Home from my first tournament. Man, I had a freaking BLAST. I seriously cannot believe how much fun I had today. The tournament, for being a small one, was sooo well run, with so little downtime and NO confusion whatsoever. Everyone was super cool. None of my opponents spazzed out while wrestling me. I got TEN matches in one day between the two divisions I fought, and I felt like I could have gone more. It definitely (for at the least the level I was at) was nowhere near as grueling or intense or stressful as a jiu jitsu tournament, but part of that came from me not having nerves, not having set expectations, and just kind of going with the flow because I was just genuinely curious how well I could do having only been through three judo practices, and knowing the majority of my judo and takedowns from jiu jitsu class.

The first division was Masters, and a round robin bracket with five of us in it. I didn't know if it was advanced or novice, I just signed up for Masters in addition to adult. The first guy and I were doing a lot of grip fighting, and I was on the defensive the whole time but finally found a few places to attack. I felt almost evenly matched with him despite being down two wazaris. In the final seconds, my coach told me I had to ippon to win and to go after him, and was thrown for my efforts. Ippon!

No sweat though, I felt good. Walked out to my second fight and was a little tentative with my grip fighting. Buddy didn't want to let me in close. He's foot sweeping, but I'm not off balanced, so I pretty much walk through them then BOOM he jumps into tai otoshi. Ippon!

Next guy walks out and I am a little confused because I am a white belt, but I could have sworn I saw him wearing a black belt earlier. Whatever. We grip fight a little, and he is super relaxed, almost as if he is baiting me... right into an uchi mata. Ippon!

So now I've lost my first three matches, all my ippon, and my coach is giving me some tips of what I've been doing right and wrong, and what I should be looking for.

I draw the last guy, and I saw in his matches he pretty much spams sacrifice throws and tries newaza. That's cool that that's his thing, but I didn't come to a judo tournament as a brown belt to do newaza, and really only wanted to use my jiu jitsu as a last resort. He tries to sacrifice throw me three times, and it was really hard to stop because he had some grips that I wasn't used to and confused me a little. I was able to post each time, stall in his guard and come back up. The third time (I think) I just said screw it, I'd rather just end this because he's not gonna fight how I want him to, passed his guard, took his back and choked him.

Thought it was over at 1-3, but they called us back and said A beat B, B beat C and C beat A, so we have to wrestle each other all over again to decide third place. I was delighted, considering I would get to go against the second guy I fought again that threw me quickly before.

This time I was much more aggressive and walked him down and concentrated on grip fighting. He got two shidos for passivity which I thought was weird at the time time (it felt like we were going at it) but my coach later told me he was backing up a lot from me. I threw him with a big ura nage for wazari but unfortunately he landed hard on his side and hurt either his arm or his shoulder and the medic had to come out. He was able to continue, and I started to set up another ura nage, then switched uchi mata for ippon. Yaaay! I finally threw someone for ippon, my goal for coming!

Next, I fought the guy I submitted earlier and it was more of the same. I had a hard time setting anything up against him, and he kept trying to grip over my shoulder for the sacrifice throws. He had two shidos for going out of bounds, the match was allllmost over, then he got a wazari and time ran out. I was kind of annoyed. I know that's the game, but I wanted more of a dogfight. I opted not to press the ground work in that fight because I wanted the satisfaction of beating him standing.

Turns out the guy I threw previously dropped out after that, so the guy I lost to took 3rd by defaut because he won both his 3rd place matches by default of buddy opting out. After the division was over, I found out that Masters divisions include everyone, and everyone I fought was a brown or black belt. I think it actually helped not even knowing, because I didn't put them on a pedestal. I was pretty tired after 6 matches, but got a solid break.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Adult started, and my coach fought both the 220lb Advanced and 198lb Advanced divisions. He won three in a row for gold at 220, and ended up with 3rd in 198, losing twice to a Mongolian 2x World Masters medalist, who was upset in the finals but a local guy in a really awesome fight to watch.

My teammate fought at 161, and was up 2 wazaris, when his opponent was DQed for twice grabbing the legs, then pinned his finals guy for ippon. He was in the same boat as me, a BJJ guy trying to learn judo and gauge his progress, so that was cool.

So in Novice Adult, I had my first guy, he immediately comes out, and takes a weird grip to me, almost like he was going for makikomi and threw me with who knows what but I was able to turn out and only give up wazari. He tried to continue with ground work, and I felt that his ground work was solid based on how he tried to pass my half guard, so it was game on. He tried it again and I countered with ura nage for wazari, but when he turned out I turned a clock choke into a lapel choke from the back and tapped him.

Next guy came out a little aggressive and tried uchi mata right away, but I felt secure, and countered with ura nage for my second ippon from throw. Obviously ura nage is the throw I love and work the most, so I was really happy when I heard IPPON instead of wazari and knew I hit it clean.

The finals sucked!!! We went at it for 2 minutes about, with the score even and no significant attacks from either of us. I finally start going hard for ura nage and he defends by hooking my leg with his. I thought if I initiated the throw, even if I botched it, we just reset. I was wrong. I figure screw it, go for broke, lift him and land with him on top and hear IPPON and his team cheer. I guess since he laced my leg, even though I initiated, it is technically his throw. So I pulled a guy on top of me to blow the final haha. Bummer, but since it was a double elimination tournament, it put me on the loser bracket for 2nd and 3rd.

The guy I beat first round fought his way back to the final of the loser bracket. I know he is tough (for me), so I want to end it by any means neccessary, feeling a little outgunned and knowing he's adequate on the ground at least. I can't really remember what happened but he was going for something, and I think I tried to counter with uchi mata, and I felt if I just committed, and pulled hard, he would come with me and I would roll through. Well, what actually happened, was I pulled him on top of me again, while he was taking me down, and straight up face planted. The side of my head bounced off the mat hard as well, and I remember seeing stars, and feeling dizzy for a second and slowly started to realize I was being pinned, and had already been pinned for god knows how long. As corny as this may sound, the first thing I thought was "you are the ranking jiu jitsu guy here, you DO NOT lose on the ground at the very least" and put everything into escaping and getting stood back up. Shook the cobwebs out, he commits to drop seio, I stiff arm him and see that glorious neck. I jump on his back again, and finish with the choke for 2nd place.

I'm definitely happy I went home with something to show for it, but overall I am just really happy about the whole experience. I liked hanging out with the guys in my division and they were so friendly, and eager to invite me to their clubs and show me some things. I was really proud I fought back from a slow start, and not only hit the throw I've been investing a lot of time into, but a throw im not very good at as well, because it just felt natural at the time. I really liked the vibe and cant wait to do it again.

 

[QingTian]

Nice job Kenny, that story feels like a competition alright!

 

[Kenny from MD]

One thing I know for sure I really want to work on is foot sweeps. With a strong ashi or sesai, I can keep them moving around and off balanced to either score or set up a bigger forward throw. In seeing some of my matches, there was no nuance and I was really barreling in and going straight for what I wanted, which won't serve me well going forward.

 

[QingTian]

One thing I know for sure I really want to work on is foot sweeps. With a strong ashi or sesai, I can keep them moving around and off balanced to either score or set up a bigger forward throw. In seeing some of my matches, there was no nuance and I was really barreling in and going straight for what I wanted, which won't serve me well going forward.

There is nuance with setting up with ashiwaza, from your grips to body movement. In fact I'd say that the motions you do other than the sweep are more important. That is, you can set up your forward throw without the sweep, but not by just pecking with your foot.

An example would be to look for a video where tori pushes uke out before a throw. The motion shoves uke's feet back, while locking up uke's upper body. That really is an "ouchi" set up, but without the ouchi. The ouchi itself just ensures uke steps back.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Right, I may have worded that poorly. I don't mean that footsweeps are easier or less nuanced than throws, only that I think by being better at them and having them in my arsenal as a more legitimate threat, I can follow up with my forward throws more subtly as a plan B instead of trying to just shove them down my opponent's throat in an all of nothing kind of way.

My coach for example uses sesai a lot to either drop them or at least get uke moving, and it either works, or positions him to follow with harai/osoto. But its not just a peck, or check, it has to be a real attack to get a real reaction.

So on my list is to work immediately is positioning and movement with footsweeps, uchi mata a little more (which I use, and got an ippon with as a counter but don't feel as comfortable with), and I have a lot of work to do with seoinage which I constantly had an opportunity for, but am just not practiced enough to pull it off well outside of BJJ class.

I am going to ease off of ura nage for a bit, which I have a good feel for, and maybe play around a little more with makikomi which fits well with the harai set ups I use. I think there is another local tournament in January, really looking forward to improving and trying it again!

Edit: Another thing I didn't mention before that I was kind of proud of in a weird way was that I was never penalized. I diligently studied the rules and I think from my competitive experience in BJJ demonstrated mostly sound strategy and generalship of the tatame. I could have been more aggressive in my first match, and maybe played a little safer in the one I lost by wazari towards the end for 3rd place, but multiple people I faced were called for passivity, going out of bounds or false attacks, and I never was. Not a single warning or shido.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Edit: Another thing I didn't mention before that I was kind of proud of in a weird way was that I was never penalized. I diligently studied the rules and I think from my competitive experience in BJJ demonstrated mostly sound strategy and generalship of the tatame. I could have been more aggressive in my first match, and maybe played a little safer in the one I lost by wazari towards the end for 3rd place, but multiple people I faced were called for passivity, going out of bounds or false attacks, and I never was. Not a single warning or shido.

Weird question: Did you use a judo gi or your BJJ gi?

 

[Kenny from MD]

I bought a cheap single weave Fuji judo gi for 47 bucks shipped. After seeing others' gis I could have gotten away with one of my less shrunken jiu jitsu gis, but I waskida paranoid about coming off as disrespectful or standing out because this was relatively foreign to me.

I did have to borrow a blue belt from a bunch of different people which thankfully they were very nice about. No one told me I needed one.

 

[QingTian]

Right, I may have worded that poorly. I don't mean that footsweeps are easier or less nuanced than throws, only that I think by being better at them and having them in my arsenal as a more legitimate threat, I can follow up with my forward throws more subtly as a plan B instead of trying to just shove them down my opponent's throat in an all of nothing kind of way.

My coach for example uses sesai a lot to either drop them or at least get uke moving, and it either works, or positions him to follow with harai/osoto. But its not just a peck, or check, it has to be a real attack to get a real reaction.

So on my list is to work immediately is positioning and movement with footsweeps, uchi mata a little more (which I use, and got an ippon with as a counter but don't feel as comfortable with), and I have a lot of work to do with seoinage which I constantly had an opportunity for, but am just not practiced enough to pull it off well outside of BJJ class.

I am going to ease off of ura nage for a bit, which I have a good feel for, and maybe play around a little more with makikomi which fits well with the harai set ups I use. I think there is another local tournament in January, really looking forward to improving and trying it again!

Edit: Another thing I didn't mention before that I was kind of proud of in a weird way was that I was never penalized. I diligently studied the rules and I think from my competitive experience in BJJ demonstrated mostly sound strategy and generalship of the tatame. I could have been more aggressive in my first match, and maybe played a little safer in the one I lost by wazari towards the end for 3rd place, but multiple people I faced were called for passivity, going out of bounds or false attacks, and I never was. Not a single warning or shido.

It wasn't a criticism, just a comment for common mistakes. I don't know whether you do them or not.

I actually prefer not to make a real attack to open up uke for another throw. The main thing I go for is gaining grip control (not changing grip, but body position) and some kuzushi. A real attack a) relies on uke's reaction b) probably sucked if you were just going for a reaction.

That said, following up real attacks is a common situation and an important skill to have. I just don't go into a throw thinking I'm going to do another. It has to flow naturally.

It's the people who don't get penalties who go on to have great Judo!

 

[RJ Green]

Weird question: Did you use a judo gi or your BJJ gi?

The patches and taper of a BJJ gi probably wouldn't fly with any of the senior refs at most judo comps. They have a gizmo to measure. Most competition gis are cut pretty baggy compared to ten year ago, and also heavy like a fuckin rug compared to the track jacket feeling of some BJJ gis.

Most judo tournaments still won't allow men's rashguards either, sometimes even for the junior boys, and i think the girls have to be short-sleeved and white?

It's really not too bad to throw with some of the comp gis like shoyorolls, gamenesses, tatamis,and whatnot, but some of the lighter gis with thin collars or those ripstop gis would feel really weird to do collar-sleeve uchikomi, almost like you'd be able to just punch through them

 

[Thycidides]

Its been several months but here is another randori video. I'm in the blue gi. Do you think it was a good idea for me to switch from Seonage to Osotogari like that since uke was in a low stance and defended a couple times , or should I have just committed more to the shoulder throw?

Also does look like an effective Osotogari at the end or was it kind of crap? I'm kind of far away from him and low to the ground. Is that bad form or more or less what happens when I try to Osotogari someone moving backward?

Its kind of frustrating because that throw and that set up was more ore less what I wanted and what I have been drilling but it looks kind of sloppy to me.

 

[QingTian]

Its been several months but here is another randori video. I'm in the blue gi. Do you think it was a good idea for me to switch from Seonage to Osotogari like that since uke was in a low stance and defended a couple times , or should I have just committed more to the shoulder throw?

Also does look like an effective Osotogari at the end or was it kind of crap? I'm kind of far away from him and low to the ground. Is that bad form or more or less what happens when I try to Osotogari someone moving backward?

Its kind of frustrating because that throw and that set up was more ore less what I wanted and what I have been drilling but it looks kind of sloppy to me.

Neither attack was going to work, for the same reason your osoto at the end was poor. You are reliant on dragging uke down rather than using your core muscles.

 

[Thycidides]

Neither attack was going to work, for the same reason your osoto at the end was poor. You are reliant on dragging uke down rather than using your core muscles.

Is there something I could do over the next couple months to improve these two throws that I'm likely not doing now, or do I more or less have to keep dong what I'm doing and be patient ?


.

 

[QingTian]

Is there something I could do over the next couple months to improve these two throws that I'm likely not doing now, or do I more or less have to keep dong what I'm doing and be patient ?
.

You've got to throw over and over again in nagekomi, moving nagekomi, cooperative drills, etc. You don't have the feel of the throw yet, nor do you know what steps are needed to be accomplished to control the throw. Frankly uke was not offering much defense at all, so the failure of the throw was mostly because you aren't getting enough throws done. Then you are rushing to complete in randori, despite how you may try to appear calm.

Not trying to sound harsh, but it's what we all have to go through when learning Judo.

 

[QingTian]

Also, I suggest again to you to post a video of yourself doing nagekomi. I would bet there are fundamental things to look at.

How is your coach helping you? It's funny, that place always has tons of white belts but no one is progressing?

 

[Thycidides]

Several people are improving, but not everyone is because attendance is spotty and the judo class is only 2 hours a week with 20 min of randori altogether . We do very little tachiwaza in the BJJ classes and when we do its pretty static.

A big problem is the mats are not very good and people do not like to be thrown on them. Also the class is mostly adult beginners and they don't take falls very well. Because of this there isn't enough nagekome as there should be perhaps, but focusing more on uchikomi and simple movement drills seems to be good for student retention.

My head judo coach tells me to be patient and that i will get better in time. He's also commented that I rush the throw a lot of the time etc

There is BJJ drills class were I could really do more nagekomi, but the problem is most of the people that go to that don't do judo and would not be good partners for standup grappling. But I would get more repetitions in. I guess I could work on a throw then a guard pass to make it easier on them and to get a feel for connecting tachiwaza to newaza which we don't really do with resistance.

 

[QingTian]

You are in a difficult situation. I remember when I first started I had to drive 45 minutes to get good randori. In your case you don't have a place to get lots of reps in.

I also think ippon seoi is difficult for beginners, and especially with the sleeve grip. There is a lot of extra coordination, lack of control by switching grips, and speed needed. I don't imagine it will happen without getting your reps in.

You reminded me of an interview of Okano. He mentioned the order of throws he teaches, and the rest of the interview is fantastic as well. It's well worth the read.

http://tomikiaikido.blogspot.com/2010/04/current-judo-will-not-produce-judo.html