Official Women's Division Discussion #25

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Why, yes. Only for my entire life, but what do I know?

You are generalizing from one strike to all feints. Be more specific. If you are specifically talking about shots where she fully extended her arms, possibly you should have said so. I am not responsible for your failure to communicate effectively.

I was perfectly specific when I said Joanna "was punching air". I am not responsible for your failure to understand simple sentences.

The rest of your post is just posturing. Amusingly, you speak in generalities yourself while accusing me of being too general.

I would say it's more a result of her limitations rather than a bad habit. Not too many fighters have a finely tuned feel for distance so they need a way to touch & feel the range. If we look at boxing for example, the first thing most fighters do is rangefinding with their jabs and getting them to touch so they can feel the distance before unpacking the rest of their punching arsenal. In kickboxing & Muay Thai this will often be done with the jab and teep. It's a textbook method for getting the range down.

This is true, but as you say, it's a limitation to rely on pawing jabs or telegraphed teeps, and even then it's not done to the extent we saw from Joanna.

There's nothing wrong with circling into the power side,

Eh...kind of. Yes, certain fighters, using a certain style, at a certain range, circling at a certain speed can get away with circling into the power. Similar to how certain fighters can get away with keeping their hands too low, or being completely stationary in front of their opponents. (Valentina being an example of the latter)

But slowly, predictably circling into the power like Joanna did against Rose the first time? That's just straight-up bad.

We don't agree, well, that's fine. Let's call it and move on.

Fair enough. I don't disagree with most of your technical points.

I only trained boxing/kickboxing for less than a year, and that was about 13 years ago now, but we were taught to use both jabs and front kicks as range finders. A lot of fighters do it.

Should have trained a bit longer then, as you would understand using a strike as a "range finder" still means you want it to make some contact, not well short of an opponent who isn't even moving.

Read more, post less.

You should take your own advice.

 

[teddy078]

Davis has the bjj skills to put pressure at bullet...
But no means to get her to the ground.

Shev has a bad habit of grappling with everyone even when she shouldn't, this cost her two fights against Nunes.

 

[aerius]

Eh...kind of. Yes, certain fighters, using a certain style, at a certain range, circling at a certain speed can get away with circling into the power. Similar to how certain fighters can get away with keeping their hands too low, or being completely stationary in front of their opponents. (Valentina being an example of the latter)

But slowly, predictably circling into the power like Joanna did against Rose the first time? That's just straight-up bad.

We can't use Joanna's first fight against Rose as a basis for anything because it was a complete outlier, she's never fought that way before and hasn't done so since. She literally put 2 jabs in the air then immediately started loading up with power punches and tried to take Rose's head off with full power round kicks. It was so out of character that I wondered if she was dicking around or drunk. It was literally Cat Zingano trying to flying knee Ronda levels of WTF.

 

[teddy078]

Carmouche and Davis don't have the records for a title shot yet. Might as well let Eye have her day to build Val's hype in the meantime. Hell dana is desperate for a title fight on ufc 233.

I have no interest in Shev vs Eye, Shev would ragdoll Eye in the clinch then do whole bunch of nothing on top to win a meh decision.

Carmouche has a win over Shev years ago, it's not much but much better for promotion then Eye's SD win over one contender.

I would rather see Suarez moves up against Shev at 233, Shev was kinda of lucky that she never fought patient grapplers like Tate at WBW.

 

[leto1776]

I was perfectly specific when I said Joanna "was punching air". I am not responsible for your failure to understand simple sentences.

The rest of your post is just posturing. Amusingly, you speak in generalities yourself while accusing me of being too general.



This is true, but as you say, it's a limitation to rely on pawing jabs or telegraphed teeps, and even then it's not done to the extent we saw from Joanna.



Eh...kind of. Yes, certain fighters, using a certain style, at a certain range, circling at a certain speed can get away with circling into the power. Similar to how certain fighters can get away with keeping their hands too low, or being completely stationary in front of their opponents. (Valentina being an example of the latter)

But slowly, predictably circling into the power like Joanna did against Rose the first time? That's just straight-up bad.



Fair enough. I don't disagree with most of your technical points.



Should have trained a bit longer then, as you would understand using a strike as a "range finder" still means you want it to make some contact, not well short of an opponent who isn't even moving.



You should take your own advice.

Now I know it’s you that has never trained in any striking art. Stop watching TheWeasel videos and reading Jack Slack articles, and put on some gloves.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Now I know it’s you that has never trained in any striking art.

What makes you say that?

Stop watching TheWeasel videos and reading Jack Slack articles, and put on some gloves.

No clue who you're referencing, but I was an amateur boxer for a few years in my late teens, as well as having done TKD and karate for many years before then.

Judging by your appearance on your Youtube videos, you're a fat shlub with a beer bully who hasn't even picked up a weight in a decade. I wouldn't be surprised if you're lying about your "less than a year" of boxing/kickboxing, too.

 

[JarlSkuld]

Seriously, JJ did right choice to take this fight. Fans wanted this fight. It was her last good paycheck in the UFC, and she can say she was female in most title fights. If you're fan you should know when to stop pushing fighters to make stupid moves and it wasn't one of them, because simply she is 31 years old, and title fight in 115 lbs division was and still is nowhere close. She had good enough grappling to be quite safe after takedowns and took small damage during fight. She is kinda washed up imo. Since march 2015 she was in 9 title fights, and one non-title fights and you can safely say she is done as champion in the UFC. Other girls have belts and it's their job to promote wmma (outside and inside octagon), I will be always big fan of JJ, but I'm out of these discussion about what she should do next, because leaving mma it's what she should do next, not because she is not good fighter and can't be top. But because what is point?

I disagree. I think JJ is/was far from "washed up". Imagine a (very likely) scenario where Andrade (or Suarez) finishes Rose for the belt...who would have stepped in as the first challenger for that belt? And we know JJ has a path to victory vs. Andrade. JJ could have (very credibly) been the first two-time WMMA champion in the UFC. But, instead, she is going to have to work her way back up from the bottom of that division. Anyway, Dana has now said he wants her to take a break (possibly because she has nowhere to go no that she is 1-3 in her last four fights)...so we probably won't see her fight for a while.

Yeah, I think Aspen Ladd would mangle Bethe. But, I imagine it's pretty tough for Ladd to find an opponent right now. She'll probably accept any fight now just to stay active. I don't think anyone is lining up to fight Suarez either.

I think Carmouche should be the next opponent for Schevchenko...unless Lipski-Calderwood produces a spectacular finish.

Jarl

 

[leto1776]

What makes you say that?



No clue who you're referencing, but I was an amateur boxer for a few years in my late teens, as well as having done TKD and karate for many years before then.

Judging by your appearance on your Youtube videos, you're a fat shlub with a beer bully who hasn't even picked up a weight in a decade. I wouldn't be surprised if you're lying about your "less than a year" of boxing/kickboxing, too.

So now we go to personal insults? You’re officially lower than dogshit, and your striking knowledge is less than that. Have fun on ignore, like the eh welcher and other dogshit posters.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

So now we go to personal insults?

I can't tell if you suffer from early onset Alzheimer's, or are just a poor liar. You started the personal insults with this post, and after I respond in kind, all of a sudden you're crying?

I guess the truth about your physical state and me calling our your lies hurt that bad, huh?

You’re officially lower than dogshit,

You're officially a loser who understands nothing about fighting, has a failure of a Youtube channel, is a fat, ugly sack of shit, and has to make a big deal of putting someone on ignore after they make fun of you on the Internet.

See? My claims are true, unlike your figurative insult.

 

[Rizz]

Shev has a bad habit of grappling with everyone even when she shouldn't, this cost her two fights against Nunes.

This is so true. One bad decision in the third round lost her the 1st fight.

 

[Rizz]

My thoughts on Eye vs Valentina is I am down for it. Most thought Nina would lose easily to Claudia and we saw how that played out. Most thought Rose would lose easily to Joanna and we saw how that played out. Crazy enough Eye is the fighter with the best case for a title shot. Katlyn was that fighter before Eye beat her. The wonderful thing about MMA is that there is so many ways to lose that anything can happen. Plus with Valentina wanting to be an active champion everyone will get their shot at the crown anyway.

 

[kuka45]

I disagree. I think JJ is/was far from "washed up". Imagine a (very likely) scenario where Andrade (or Suarez) finishes Rose for the belt...who would have stepped in as the first challenger for that belt? And we know JJ has a path to victory vs. Andrade. JJ could have (very credibly) been the first two-time WMMA champion in the UFC. But, instead, she is going to have to work her way back up from the bottom of that division. Anyway, Dana has now said he wants her to take a break (possibly because she has nowhere to go no that she is 1-3 in her last four fights)...so we probably won't see her fight for a while.

Yeah, I think Aspen Ladd would mangle Bethe. But, I imagine it's pretty tough for Ladd to find an opponent right now. She'll probably accept any fight now just to stay active. I don't think anyone is lining up to fight Suarez either.

I think Carmouche should be the next opponent for Schevchenko...unless Lipski-Calderwood produces a spectacular finish.

Jarl

Listen I will tell you one thing. For her career maybe it wasn't best move to fight for flyweight title right now, but guess, for division it was good restart, because who is next for title fight there? Jessica Eye? I don't have anyhting against here, but she isn't established name, but what if she will win? Shevchenko will get injured etc.? Shevchenko isn't youngest fighter already 30 years old
girls like Miesha,Ronda were retiring when they were 30 years old. This division will be problem anyway. You need good and undeafeated fighter to make it work and I don't see fighters like that there and for example in wsw division you got Jedrzejczyk, Gadelha,Kowalkiewicz who were undeafeated when they fought eachother.
I know this is bad comparision and not really that close to true, but just imagine TJ Dillashaw fighting Conor at FW right now, fighter take fights and that's it, no matter of JJ's resume it would be always very hard fight for her, because nature of this sport. UFC wanted to give JJ only 1 month of preparation for this fight...Just think 1 minute about it...
Just look at this fight like at old muay thai gimmick: 'anyone, anywhere', when thai fighter giving up weight difference (because it was visible in octagon). Fans wanted to see this fight? They wanted, hopefully they're happy.I won't link my close to 2 years old posts from another forum prediciting how this fight will look, because it was easy to predict fight of two fighters with more than 15 years of fighting career...doing their things in weight classes separated by 20 pounds.

 

[Eater of Souls]

I was perfectly specific when I said Joanna "was punching air". I am not responsible for your failure to understand simple sentences.

The rest of your post is just posturing. Amusingly, you speak in generalities yourself while accusing me of being too general.

No, you were not. And I gave specific examples. Your lack of intellectual integrity, personal insults towards others in other posts, etc. is making me tired of dealing with you.

In a thread where nearly everyone gets along and we can disagree like adults, you are having problems with multiple posters. This has an obvious conclusion, which you will probably ignore or deny.

I am putting you on ignore. Feel free to reply, it is commonplace.

 

[Eater of Souls]

My thoughts on Eye vs Valentina is I am down for it. Most thought Nina would lose easily to Claudia and we saw how that played out. Most thought Rose would lose easily to Joanna and we saw how that played out. Crazy enough Eye is the fighter with the best case for a title shot. Katlyn was that fighter before Eye beat her. The wonderful thing about MMA is that there is so many ways to lose that anything can happen. Plus with Valentina wanting to be an active champion everyone will get their shot at the crown anyway.

I am down for it simply because I want to see active champions. It will still be a bit before the division sorts itself out, so having an active champion and other fighters seems the best way to make it happen. Sure, people can argue about who deserves a shot the most, but hell Eye and Shev fought on the same night, so assuming no injuries, they should be ready at about the same time.

Have Nicco (assuming she is ready) fight Liz in a contender's match in the meantime.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Thoughts on match-ups for 125:

Val vs. Eye
JoJo vs. Lipski (already booked, contender match)
Liz vs. Nicco (contender match)
So winner of Jo vs. Lipski would be the 1st contender for the belt. Winner of Liz vs. Nicco would be the next contender. This also allows for injuries and time to recover. Val says she wants to be active, and, barring injury, she should be fine after the Eye fight (yes, I fully expect her to steamroll Eye, far better match up for Val than JJ).

Other fights to make (not looking to see if anyone is booked at this point. I am sure if/when I fuck up, it will be quickly pointed out ):

Down the roster Maia could fight Niedźwiedź as both are coming off a loss (I think) and need wins. Roxy could fight Chook.
Lauren Murphy vs. Alexis Davis - both need a win.

 

[executionermma]

Davis has the bjj skills to put pressure at bullet...
But no means to get her to the ground.

IMO, Carmouche is a nightmare matchup for everyone in the division.
She's probably the best wrestler at the division today

I agree, except for Davis, who already beat Liz twice (the last one some people disagreed with the decision, but i didn't) and thankfully has a phenomenal guard from her back to, at the very least, work on submissions to score from bottom. If i recall correctly she almost had a triangle locked in at their last fight.

I would rather see Suarez moves up against Shev at 233

Huh.. i'd rather not. Why do you want to cannibalize 115 just to give Valentina a more interesting contender? Rose vs. Suarez and Andrade vs. Suarez are awesome fights, and part of that is Suarez being undefeated and unstoppable thus far, no, god no, that would be a terrible and super risky move by UFC.

Thoughts on match-ups for 125:

Val vs. Eye
JoJo vs. Lipski (already booked, contender match)
Liz vs. Nicco (contender match)
So winner of Jo vs. Lipski would be the 1st contender for the belt. Winner of Liz vs. Nicco would be the next contender. This also allows for injuries and time to recover. Val says she wants to be active, and, barring injury, she should be fine after the Eye fight (yes, I fully expect her to steamroll Eye, far better match up for Val than JJ).

Down the roster Maia could fight Niedźwiedź as both are coming off a loss (I think) and need wins. Roxy could fight Chook.
Lauren Murphy vs. Alexis Davis - both need a win.

Terrible matchmaking. This guy doesn't understand how UFC matchmaking works, obviously.
And i'm really not saying this because i don't like him, he understands striking and overall fighting pretty well, i respect that, but in this specific post he couldn't be any more off.

Roxy is coming of a loss where she didn't looked good and is a veteran, she definitely should be fighting backwards at this point, not against Chook who just lost in her nº 1 contender fight.

JoJo vs Lipski i don't see as a contender fight at all, Lipski is unknown for most MMA fans and JoJo needs to be more active and get some wins under her belt, she's 1-2 in her last 3 fights. Needs 2 more wins, to me. Whoever wins, should need one more win after, maybe against the winner of Jessy Jess vs. KGB.

Also, if Val vs. Eye is happening next, how the winner of JoJo-Lipski would be the 1st contender for the belt? Am i missing something here?

Niedz should stay in Invicta, maybe fight with Pearl Gonzales for the flyweight belt eventually. She's young and a bit green, her cardio is suspect and her defensive wrestling too, she needs to be more active and get more experience, for her own good.

Finally, Lauren Murphy is coming of a loss and 2-4 in UFC, her only win at 125 was a SD against someone who's been cut. Giving her a fight with someone higher in the rankings is absurd.
But hey, we don't have to really argue about it, because she is fighting Ashlee Evans-Smith.

 

[Cheapshart]

Eye's performance wasn't good enough to guarantee a title shot. Lee fights in six days. She's on a 5 fight win-streak. If she finishes JRC in attention-getting style I think the UFC would be all over that.

Mucho valor comercial, si?

 

[executionermma]

Level of opposition matters. Chookagian was undefeated at flyweight and JRC was 2-0 in UFC, going to the fight against Eye. She has done enough.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Eye's performance wasn't good enough to guarantee a title shot. Lee fights in six days. She's on a 5 fight win-streak. If she finishes JRC in attention-getting style I think the UFC would be all over that.

Mucho valor comercial, si?

Good point. I had not realized her fight was so soon.

Be interesting to see Shevchenko fighting someone who calls herself KGB. Might really piss her off.

 

[Kaybee]

Thoughts on match-ups for 125:

Val vs. Eye
JoJo vs. Lipski (already booked, contender match)
Liz vs. Nicco (contender match)
So winner of Jo vs. Lipski would be the 1st contender for the belt. Winner of Liz vs. Nicco would be the next contender. This also allows for injuries and time to recover. Val says she wants to be active, and, barring injury, she should be fine after the Eye fight (yes, I fully expect her to steamroll Eye, far better match up for Val than JJ).

Other fights to make (not looking to see if anyone is booked at this point. I am sure if/when I fuck up, it will be quickly pointed out ):

Down the roster Maia could fight Niedźwiedź as both are coming off a loss (I think) and need wins. Roxy could fight Chook.
Lauren Murphy vs. Alexis Davis - both need a win.

Eh, I’d rather see Eye fight Nicco and see Shev-Liz 2 for the title with the winner of Nicco-Eye getting the next TS.

And why make Maia-Kuma 2? Especially since Aga hasn’t fought since their match. I’d probably have Maia fight someone like Lauren Murphy, while feeding Kuma someone like Honchak to get up to speed in the UFC. Maybe fight for the Invicta belt otherwise.

I could see Roxy fighting Chook or Davis