Old fashioned Bare knuckle Boxing/Wing Chun type punches vs modern boxing for self defence

[rd2play]

Have you ever hit a guy who is 20 pounds bigger then that dropped him? I'd agree not very many. Most fights with kos are from same sized fighters. There are weight classes for a reason.

I think this discussion is geared more towards fighting an untrained opponent. If you have to fight in self defense a trained fighter who's bigger in size, you'd better have an escape plan. If you fight the typical street thug who has some skills, but is not truly skilled, you can be successful even is he's bigger.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Have you ever hit a guy who is 20 pounds bigger then that dropped him? I'd agree not very many. Most fights with kos are from same sized fighters. There are weight classes for a reason.

i have dropped someone 40 kgs (90 lbs)heavier than myself. it took a few punches though as opposed to the one or two it usually takes. don't worry i understand that there are weight classes for a reason. i wouldn't want to give up 20 lbs to someone that could fight.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I think this discussion is geared more towards fighting an untrained opponent. If you have to fight in self defense a trained fighter who's bigger in size, you'd better have an escape plan. If you fight the typical street thug who has some skills, but is not truly skilled, you can be successful even is he's bigger.

thats about the size of it.

 

[eternaldarkness]

A buddy of mine finished street fights with one single jab to the nose. He's very fast and hits hard. An accurate hard jab does wonders on the street, where you deal mostly with untrained fighters.

I box and have done Wing chun. For self defense I would pick boxing, no question. Ducking, slipping and rolling confuse many thugs and open up opportunities that I just don't see in Wing chun. Of course, for an actual self defense situation I would use elbows, low kicks and knees, whatever is needed. But boxing would be my base.

have you found that wing chun has helped with your parrying skills?

 

[Ilk]

i have dropped someone 40 kgs (90 lbs)heavier than myself. it took a few punches though as opposed to the one or two it usually takes. don't worry i understand that there are weight classes for a reason. i wouldn't want to give up 20 lbs to someone that could fight.

Not in a real fight but in a spar. I spar 2-4 heavier guys than me. And I have dropped them twice ... completely unintentionally. Once with a left hook a taller and heavier guy, whom I did not even watch when I threw that hook. It just landed in a nasty way I guess... I just saw him dropping in front of me. The second one I explained. I catched him comming forward with a jab - cross to the solar plexus. We usually throw heavy on the body and light at head, so the cross was heavy and he was comming forward and it stopped him.

Btw boxing does teaches you to hit hard. I have developed a significant pop for an year or less of training. Once you learn the mechanics of good punching and develop good speed and accuracy every punch becomes a heavy punch if you let your hands go.

And what is about bare knuckle boxing? If in a street fight I will really target more the body. It is easier to hit and easier to drop people with body punches to be honest.

 

[TheMaster]

A buddy of mine finished street fights with one single jab to the nose. He's very fast and hits hard. An accurate hard jab does wonders on the street, where you deal mostly with untrained fighters.

I box and have done Wing chun. For self defense I would pick boxing, no question. Ducking, slipping and rolling confuse many thugs and open up opportunities that I just don't see in Wing chun. Of course, for an actual self defense situation I would use elbows, low kicks and knees, whatever is needed. But boxing would be my base.

This is the fallacy of ring fighting. I agree in a sporting context there are many more openings from bobbing/weaving etc whuch is why I dont see wing chun replacing boxing in the cage any time soon. But for the reasons I cited in the above posts, many of these 'openings' are much less feasable bare knuckle. If you bob/weave and do flashy moves or take risks and hit the wrong part of the head or forearm/elbow with boxing or even mma gloves you will be fine, but bare knuckle you have just ruined your hands. So unless you can do all the same boxing moves and punches and convert them to palm strikes (which can be done for some punches), you will have to pick your shots alot more.

What you really need to do is spar with control bare knuckle to get a feel for it, then take the same mindset to sparring with mma gloves (if you spar with boxing gloves you cant do hand trapping or control). What you will find is you will start to prefer more controlling and hitting and bringing in some of the wing chun strikes and approach instead of just mainly boxing.
I agree about solid jab to the nose getting the job done though in the street in many cases.

I also agree with the above poster on body shots being effective for self defence more than you see them used in ring fighting.

 

[kenpeters8]

wing chun has to be the purest garbage of all garbage. useless garbage that's so useless, even real garbage has more value than wing chun.

 

[Replay19]

Have you ever hit a guy who is 20 pounds bigger then that dropped him? I'd agree not very many. Most fights with kos are from same sized fighters. There are weight classes for a reason.

I seen guys knock out opponents 1.5 bigger than them, weight classes are important but the real world cares not about weight classes. It's either you can fight, or not. When I saw smaller guys knocking out bigger guys it was actually at a tournament with gloves and headgear. I saw a smaller guy drop a bigger guy and he fell down with his ass up to the moon, he needed to be revived. What was it? It was a simple double lead hook combination.

 

[JabToucher]

I have seen Wing Chun taught where you have that incredibly squared off stance. Regardless of the hands, I always thought it's begging to receive a groin shot.

 

[TheMaster]

I have seen Wing Chun taught where you have that incredibly squared off stance. Regardless of the hands, I always thought it's begging to receive a groin shot.

Thats a training stance where everything is done in equilbrium like the 'centre line punch'.
In real application you adopt whatever stance you like that is comfortable and covers your centreline and allows free movement.
It is more upright though than modern boxing because the hands and forearms are used to parry and intercept punches (as also in old time bareknuckle) in preference to lots of head movement and bobbbing around, but you should still be flexible with head and body movement as necessay as long as you can maintain good balance.

 

[JabToucher]

Thats a training stance where everything is done in equilbrium like the 'centre line punch'.
In real application you adopt whatever stance you like that is comfortable and covers your centreline and allows free movement.
It is more upright though than modern boxing because the hands are used to parry and intercept punches (as also in old time bareknuckle) in preference to lots of head movement and bobbbing around, but you should still be flexible with head movement as necessay as look as you can maintain good balance.

Thanks! I had always wondered about that.

 

[Ilk]

Btw since we are talking real fighting. What is the value if a low kick in it? And I mean a real strong low kick. I have been low kicked full power only once in a spar with my old coach and I could barely stand. Anyone has experience with the heavy shin low kick?

Always thought it is under rated. As in general it is very easy to land

Regarding bobing and weaving and slips. They are still an excellent tool. Especially when you weave towards your left hook. People getting super insecure if you are landing that left hook down or up. If ot goes up it can always be delivered wth a slap.

Bobing and jabbing, combined with body jabs and crosses? Sounds like a good technique.

Slip in and left uppercut? Slip out and body cross? All sound like a good strategy.

Reguarding guard. The Cuban or Soviet System advice on guard that is very similar to the one adviced on bare knuchkle fighting. Left hand a bit forward pointing towards oponent. Right hand protecting more the body. Even Sinister advocates on a similar guard using the old fencing tactics which were implemented in boxing too.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Btw since we are talking real fighting. What is the value if a low kick in it? And I mean a real strong low kick. I have been low kicked full power only once in a spar with my old coach and I could barely stand. Anyone has experience with the heavy shin low kick?

Always thought it is under rated. As in general it is very easy to land

Have you been shown how to check a kick? Sparred some MT guys and they were kind enough to show me. Low kicks add up, especially if you like to be mobile when you fight, learning to check them was greatly appreciated.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Typically guys who down boxing either never boxed or weren't particularly good at it. Boxing takes a lot of hard work, and contact which people naturally don't want to do. The wash out rate is high.

Modern boxing has gloves, the defense can be slightly different. So you can extend the arms as a line of defense bare knuckle. Perhaps this is the resemblance to WC? Boxing with gloves also allows for more combinations. Not every punch in the combination is meant for power.

If I hit someone bare knuckle I won't aim for the head I will crack their jaw. Have you ever used a double end or speed bag? This untrained person is going to get hit wherever a trained boxer pleases to hit him.

I wouldn't try to hook someone textbook in a street fight, personal preference. But my check hook will slap them silly. Jab, and right hand? Fair game. His jaw is not harder than my fist.

That is the type of confidence boxing gives you. Even if you break a hand, what does the guy's face look like is the real question? Rather walk around with a beat up hand than face. Fighting hurts, you WILL take an injury no matter what, even if it's purely superficial.

Truthfully, none of my boxer friends who have got into street fights have broken their hands. I have had bloody knuckles but that was the extent. Your hands become conditioned in the sport. People aren't standing up to you for 3 rounds in the street, and definitely not 12. Ordinary people who get punched have no way to process or deal with the trauma. They will fold from someone trained.

I don't know if that palm strike thing is true for old school boxers, an old school boxing historian from the UK did a video debunking that. He dropped some knowledge and some well rooted names if I recall correctly.

Bottom line? Boxing works. WC I'm sure works as well. Use what works for you. Boxing has never steered me wrong.

 

[kenpeters8]

If a regular joe bar fighter goes up against a wing chun dork, I got my money on the regular Joe bar fighter dude.

Wing Chun is pure garbage.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Wing Chun does not do low kick like MT. WC does front kick/stomp to the knees.



They even throw knee to thigh

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Well I should clarify I have trained WC to a reasonably high level on top of Judo so I am happy to discuss potential applications, especially for bare knuckle.

I think we will be hard pressed to find an old fashioned bare knuckle guy though...even modern bare knuckle is a bit different the original old way included clinching and palm strikes.

Im going by articles I have read and descriptions from bare fist fighters as well as Dempseys thoughts on the subject.
It is almost unanimous the 3 lower knuckle vertical fist is the only way they seriously consider punching without gloves.

I also actually favour palm strikes to the head. Punching the top of head or bony areas with bare fist for any length if time is not fun. Palm heel to the jaw or behind the ear is just as effective to ko and you wont risk breaking your hand or rolling your wrist.

Even gnp with bare fist is highly dangerous for the one delivering also, palm strikes and hard slaps are the ways to go.

When I have spared boxers, what works is to stay out of boxing.
- So basically 'clinch' them (might also be my judo instinct) then dirty box using close range strikes and spoiling/ controling their hands and punches.

-Otherwise stay outside boxing range and use the longfist vertical straight punch picking your shots. You can also parry/ deflect punches using the forearm or hands at range (as well as close).
When you fight like this it starts looking a hell of alot like old school bare knuckle which makes me believe the connection is real.

It always struck me as ironic how WC is widely trashed in the US mma community when it really could be the last living link to historical bare knuckle.
No legit cross trained guy ever competed as yet, but I believe it works best and is designed for the barefist arena or self defence primarily.

My advice: Condition your wrists, and hands.

Also, you shouldn't be in too much trouble of breaking anything if you throw straight punches in a street fight. Hooks yeah possibly, or a right hand where you loop a shot. You may get bloody knuckles but should be okay if you are competent with punching. Drop your weight and body jab that flabby belly. When the attention is downstairs come back up with the right and go through their virgin nose.

Palm strike and I would argue you're losing reach, which can mean the world if he is trying to punch you with his knuckles and you're aiming with a palm. Is the hand safety idea worth being an inch out of range and losing the reach contest? Then you'll have to worry about face safety or being plum knocked out.

Relax your shots until point of impact. Perhaps even deliberately aim down for the jaw. People will more than likely mouth breathe when they fight. The jaw is hanging there for you. Uppercut that puppy if you must, make them bite their loud tongue smooth off. lol

In all seriousness, boxing has a ton to offer. Judo is amazing as well. I don't know an incredible amount about WC, but I respect the lineage. The trapping philosophy sounds legit if you can time people's movements very well in that range.

 

[RightToBareKnuckles]

i hope these new bare knuckle boxing organizations in the US have success, i'd like to see competitors from various backgrounds like Wing Chun get in there just so we can see some different approaches to bare knuckle fighting. it'd be be cool to see some old school stuff come back into practice, whether it's from an Eastern or Western martial art

 

[rd2play]

have you found that wing chun has helped with your parrying skills?

Quite frankly, I haven't even tried. Not because I think WC is garbage, I just find boxing techniques come more natural to me.

Which ties into what somebody said: slipping, bobbing and weaving are fancy techniques. You do them long enough under pressure and they become second nature, and you don't even have to be an excellent boxer for that. You add some return fire to that and you're fine for the street. Next technique would be how to avoid the fight, and if that failed, how to avoid arrest after the fight (assuming you came on top).

 

[ironkhan57]

i just want to say when i was training in nyc last year at a boxing gym that had a muay thai instructor (2 both of which trained mma and 1 wanted to compete in pro boxing but they wouldn't let him because of his age, and he trained sanda kickboxing), so there was a guy in the gym who taught wing chun (he looked like one of those kung fu fighters who do fight chereography based on his muscle mass) and the instructor that was training me told me that he sparred with that guy and he couldn't handle his kicks. i'm not denying that wing chun can work in mma, but you have to train more then wing chun to get it to work you must be mixed not one dimensional, and that means knowing boxing and either kickboxing or muay thai.