Ongoing Team Lloyd Irvin Scandal - Part 5

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Hmmmm, so if there is a contract for their sponsorship...how hard do you think it would be to get out of that? Lloyd likes lawyers, it could get messy and cost the company a lot more than finishing their obligated contract.

A lot of contracts have morality clauses. I don't think these particular ones do, but I still see them putting these athletes in their newer ads, so clearly they're fine with it.

3. He's not sponsoring Lloyd.
They're sponsoring a fighter who actively supports Lloyd. Their sponsorship implies that they're OK with what the athlete is doing, in this case, being associated with Lloyd.

I'm honestly curious how if I wear a gi from Ronin, I'm part of the problem?

This is a bit of a stretch, I'd consider it more that you're not part of the solution. Here's a bit of a stretch, though. Let's play follow the money!

You buy a Ronin gi. $$ -> Kinji San
Kinji San sponsors Tim Spriggs. $$ -> Tim Spriggs
Tim Spriggs pays for training with TLI. $$ -> TLI
TLI pays for rapists' attorneys -> $$ -> scum

A bit of a stretch, but look at where your money would end up due to sponsorships. Are you OK with that?
 
I agree with your point but that is a long path. I purchase products from a lot of companies that are closer to probably worse things - e.g. child slave labour picking coffee beans and cocoa beans for chocolate, for example, or retailers that stock products from sweat shops (or let's say unsafe factories) in Bangladesh. If we are going to take a moral stand then we have to do it seriously. I wish I could hop on that bandwagon but I just don't have the energy.
 
I agree with your point but that is a long path. I purchase products from a lot of companies that are closer to probably worse things - e.g. child slave labour picking coffee beans and cocoa beans for chocolate, for example, or retailers that stock products from sweat shops (or let's say unsafe factories) in Bangladesh. If we are going to take a moral stand then we have to do it seriously. I wish I could hop on that bandwagon but I just don't have the energy.

Eh I disagree that if you don't do it in one instance (i.e. not support a product due to ethical reasons) then you shouldn't do it in every instance.

For example, in this instance, not buying ronin gis is incredibly easy for all of us. If we feel even slightly doubtful with regards to supporting the brand, its a simple thing to not support them.

In another instance, what if you find out a huge company like P & G is doing some morally dubious things. In that case, its actually a lot harder to avoid their products. The amount of effort it would take would be much more and you likely would still end up supporting them in some way (though as an educated consumer you could always make choices).

So I think someone that knows about the TLI stuff and still supports Ronin is wrong. You shouldn't support brands that support morally bankrupt individuals especially when its very easy to do so.
 
Regardless of how anyone feels about buying or not buying Ronin, let's just get real about this sponsorship contract talk. These sponsorship deals with medal chaser kids are not big contracts. They are like "Hey, we will give you a free gi, and you just wear it at the big tournaments okay?"

This is not Nike dropping Lance Armstrong here.
 
This is a bit of a stretch, I'd consider it more that you're not part of the solution. Here's a bit of a stretch, though. Let's play follow the money!

You buy a Ronin gi. $$ -> Kinji San
Kinji San sponsors Tim Spriggs. $$ -> Tim Spriggs
Tim Spriggs pays for training with TLI. $$ -> TLI
TLI pays for rapists' attorneys -> $$ -> scum

A bit of a stretch, but look at where your money COULD end up due to sponsorships. Are you OK with that?

Fixed.

I see your point and where you're going with it, but it is a bit of a stretch. Do you know your brand owners so well that you know where your money is really going? How many of you actually talk to owners that much besides the "Dude I love your gis" or "sweet shirt brah" comments on Facebook or Instagram?


Here's a let's follow the money scenario for you;

You buy a gi. $$ -> Gi Company
Gi Company buys more product. $$ -> Pakistan (Most gi companies use Pakistan)
Pakistan company gives money to Terrorist. $$ -> Scum

It's a bit of a stretch, but look at where your money goes just because you bought a gi from Pakistan. Are you OK with that?

MERICA!!!!

Here's another

Have a job. $$ -> you (YAY, money!!!!)
Money goes to bank. $$ -> bank
Bank pays government. $$ -> Chaos, death, filth, & greed
Uncle Sam pays black water to exterminate village. $$ -> Murder

You just killed an innocent village, hope you sleep well at night....murderer.
 
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Regardless of how anyone feels about buying or not buying Ronin, let's just get real about this sponsorship contract talk. These sponsorship deals with medal chaser kids are not big contracts. They are like "Hey, we will give you a free gi, and you just wear it at the big tournaments okay?"

This is not Nike dropping Lance Armstrong here.

Where I agree that it's not a huge sponsorship, do you really think Lloyd Irvin wouldn't have a concrete contract for these kids? The guy is a snake, we've seen that anyone who tries to cross him gets threatened with legal action. Same with Avellan.

I'm not defending Ronin's sponsorship of Spriggs and Devon, what I am saying is that maybe we should look at both sides. Maybe it would be more beneficial to Ronin to just finish out the contract to avoid more fees.

If you feel this is wrong, then please explain why. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just wanna hear more opinions.
 
Regardless of how anyone feels about buying or not buying Ronin, let's just get real about this sponsorship contract talk. These sponsorship deals with medal chaser kids are not big contracts. They are like "Hey, we will give you a free gi, and you just wear it at the big tournaments okay?"

This is not Nike dropping Lance Armstrong here.

This!!

what probably happened is that LI bought a thousand GI's in various sizes and got a deal on them from Ronin with the agreement to represent Rhonin in competitions and offer free/discounted TLI athletes for marketing. I would bet $$ that there is no money changing hands from Ronin to LI.

If I owned one and I liked it, I would wear it. All the examples of $$ flow are BS. Basic critical thinking regarding slippery slope fallacy. Just because A=B and B=C doesn't mean A=C http://voices.yahoo.com/critical-thinking-fallacy-slippery-6197826.html
 
I get the feeling that if he is training, it is somewhere small and probably just off times with higher level guys at the gym when regular students aren't around.

He says that he intends to compete at the Houston Open, so he will have to register under a team at that point. Perhaps he is still listed under TLI, but I would think that would have to change. I guess we will see.

Maybe he's training with his friends in a garage using Gracie University! Sorry I couldn't resist.
 
Where I agree that it's not a huge sponsorship, do you really think Lloyd Irvin wouldn't have a concrete contract for these kids? The guy is a snake, we've seen that anyone who tries to cross him gets threatened with legal action. Same with Avellan.

I'm not defending Ronin's sponsorship of Spriggs and Devon, what I am saying is that maybe we should look at both sides. Maybe it would be more beneficial to Ronin to just finish out the contract to avoid more fees.

If you feel this is wrong, then please explain why. I'm not trying to start an argument, I just wanna hear more opinions.

No, I don't think Lloyd Irvin would have a concrete contract for these kids. What evidence has there ever been for him doing that?

Take a look at Keenan for an example. He left with the other medal chasers in early March. A few weeks later, he is competing at the Pan Ams with his new Keiko Raca gi sponsorship. That one is one of the few that is a "concrete contract" one.

If Lloyd had set him up with a previous contract, wouldn't it be kind of hard for him to just break that and go with Keiko Raca in less than a month? The reality is that there was nothing concrete for gi sponsorship when he was with Lloyd. So he doesn't do it for Keenan, but he's going to do it for these guys?

This all stems from the myth that Lloyd is some kind of business genius offering these guys great opportunities and deals. The only deal going on there before everyone was left was to cram into a boarding house in a bad neighborhood, train at his school, and do him favors. And some of those guys had to pay to stay in that house anyway.
 
Ronin blew a huge opportunity.

Let's face it, having some TLI/Crazy 88 purple belt get a third place at the NY Open isn't going to further your brand or sell more apparel.

Now if they would have simply dropped their second-tier TLI athletes, they would have been admired my most of the BJJ community and their brand would have taken off. Hell, I might have bought a gi just to support them.

They pretty much did the exact opposite of what would have made their little company stand out.

Now they're doubly-screwed because they're marred with the rape ordeal stigma.
 
Ronin blew a huge opportunity.

Let's face it, having some TLI/Crazy 88 purple belt get a third place at the NY Open isn't going to further your brand or sell more apparel.

Now if they would have simply dropped their second-tier TLI athletes, they would have been admired my most of the BJJ community and their brand would have taken off. Hell, I might have bought a gi just to support them.

They pretty much did the exact opposite of what would have made their little company stand out.

Now they're doubly-screwed because they're marred with the rape ordeal stigma.

Most of the BJJ community isn't even aware of the rape case, I would guess. Probably 8/10 people in world of BJJ are oblivious.

F12 is a vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless, and the sponsorship of team rape athletes probably isn't hurting sales.
 
Most of the BJJ community isn't even aware of the rape case, I would guess. Probably 8/10 people in world of BJJ are oblivious.

I actually think this is dead wrong, but I have no evidence other than what I hear in my academies and other academies in my area.

I would guess the exact opposite of your figures: 8/10 are aware.
 
I actually think this is dead wrong, but I have no evidence other than what I hear in my academies and other academies in my area.

I would guess the exact opposite of your figures: 8/10 are aware.

People talk and things get around in the academy. if 1/5 of the BJJ population knows about it and it's being discussed in an academy setting, it will spread like a wild fire.
 
I actually think this is dead wrong, but I have no evidence other than what I hear in my academies and other academies in my area.

I would guess the exact opposite of your figures: 8/10 are aware.

I think it's disproportionately known about among the dedicated/hardcore BJJ players. But when you consider the huge amount of casual practitioners that make up the average school or club, it really kills the ratio.

No evidence on my end either, anecdotes aside.
 
I actually think this is dead wrong, but I have no evidence other than what I hear in my academies and other academies in my area.

I would guess the exact opposite of your figures: 8/10 are aware.

I would agree with this - but add that out of those 8 who are aware, the majority are indifferent.
 
Folks are now upset with two competitors who trained at a different academy, who had nothing to do with the NYE event, and are advocating a boycott of the brand of Gi that they wear? Has anyone suggested how infantile this sounds?
 
Folks are now upset with two competitors who trained at a different academy, who had nothing to do with the NYE event, and are advocating a boycott of the brand of Gi that they wear? Has anyone suggested how infantile this sounds?

Makes sense to me to not buy if you don't support TLI. There are tons of different gi brands out there. Almost all come from Pakistan and are basically copies of the same product with different patches sewn on.

Why would you buy the TLI brand if you don't want to support TLI when you could get the same thing somewhere else very easily? The whole idea of sponsorship is to get people to buy your brand for reasons other than the actual product itself. The entire premise is based on the idea that by buying this brand, you are identifying with the sponsored athletes, supporting them, living a piece of their lifestyle, etc. So it naturally cuts both ways.
 
Makes sense to me to not buy if you don't support TLI. There are tons of different gi brands out there. Almost all come from Pakistan and are basically copies of the same product with different patches sewn on.

Why would you buy the TLI brand if you don't want to support TLI when you could get the same thing somewhere else very easily? The whole idea of sponsorship is to get people to buy your brand for reasons other than the actual product itself. The entire premise is based on the idea that by buying this brand, you are identifying with the sponsored athletes, supporting them, living a piece of their lifestyle, etc. So it naturally cuts both ways.

So two guys who have no connection to the alleged criminal event warrant a boycott of the Gi company, whose apparel they wear? So are guys now boycotting McDonald's, Sprite, and Nike because Kobe endorses those products? Or boycotting Footlocker apparel since Tyson endorses their brand? Or is it better to purchase Gis from other Pakistan-based operations? - Pakistan, by the way, being a sponsor of international terrorism, responsible for the death of many innocent civilians abroad. I could go on at length in identifying global celebrities and shady corporations with multi-million dollar endorsements and funding streams who have engaged in criminal acts. Yet two young guys (who have never been in any legal trouble) whose "endorsement deal" probably only amounts to getting free Gis is an issue? The internet is a wonderful invention. But some people abuse it with the publishing of complete and utter bullspit. I'm not talking about you amigo. I know you're just trying to explain the theory. Just my general reaction to this line of logic.
 
So two guys who have no connection to the alleged criminal event warrant a boycott of the Gi company, whose apparel they wear? So are guys now boycotting McDonald's, Sprite, and Nike because Kobe endorses those products? Or boycotting Footlocker apparel since Tyson endorses their brand? Or is it better to purchase Gis from other Pakistan-based operations? - Pakistan, by the way, being a sponsor of international terrorism, responsible for the death of many innocent civilians abroad. I could go on at length in identifying global celebrities and shady corporations with multi-million dollar endorsements and funding streams who have engaged in criminal acts. Yet two young guys (who have never been in any legal trouble) whose "endorsement deal" probably only amounts to getting free Gis is an issue? The internet is a wonderful invention. But some people abuse it with the publishing of complete and utter bullspit. I'm not talking about you amigo. I know you're just trying to explain the theory. Just my general reaction to this line of logic.

anaconda had an earlier post that kind of explained why people who don't support TLI would probably not want to buy Ronin. A lot of comes down to tradeoff cost and how easy it is to do.

It is pretty easy to not buy one particular gi brand given how similar all the products are and how many gi brands there are available. Whereas not buying any gis from Pakistan would be much harder given that most brands source from there.

The endorsement idea is to tie feelings about the product with feelings about the athlete. Hopefully, those feelings are positive on the whole, but they can also be negative. If Kobe endorses Nike, and I really hate Kobe for some reason, then I might want to buy Adidas instead. Nike would be betting that overall more people like him than hate him, so they would get more business than they lose.

On a strictly logical basis, all endorsements are silly period because the athletes really have nothing to do with the products themselves. But companies still spend money on them because they work, which means that a lot of people do tie their feelings about the product to their feelings about the athletes.
 
So two guys who have no connection to the alleged criminal event warrant a boycott of the Gi company, whose apparel they wear? So are guys now boycotting McDonald's, Sprite, and Nike because Kobe endorses those products? Or boycotting Footlocker apparel since Tyson endorses their brand? Or is it better to purchase Gis from other Pakistan-based operations? - Pakistan, by the way, being a sponsor of international terrorism, responsible for the death of many innocent civilians abroad. I could go on at length in identifying global celebrities and shady corporations with multi-million dollar endorsements and funding streams who have engaged in criminal acts. Yet two young guys (who have never been in any legal trouble) whose "endorsement deal" probably only amounts to getting free Gis is an issue? The internet is a wonderful invention. But some people abuse it with the publishing of complete and utter bullspit. I'm not talking about you amigo. I know you're just trying to explain the theory. Just my general reaction to this line of logic.

They actively rep the team and are adamant in their support for a man whom, by most accounts, is a sociopath and a dangerous force in the bjj world. At the very least, he is an incredible sleazy businessman and con artist.

Discount that all you want, but that is important to a lot of people. The NYE rape case was just a catalyst for exposing what TLI and LI himself are all about and what they value. Most of us don't stand behind those same values.
 
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