Post Concussive Syndrome Question

All of this brain trauma stuff is pretty scary. Some of my teammates are on their fourth concussion.. Yet one of my old boxing trainers has had more and he seems to keep his shit together decent.... thank god i aint there... yet

I see alot of gyms have started to shift away from hardcore sparring. More drilling which is a good thing.

As a teenager i was thrown in the ring pretty quick and could have avoided alot of damage if i was drilled defence properly beforehand.
 
I mean, that would be great. It would be amazing in fact. It does make sense in an anecdotal sort of way and does support one of my initial hypotheses (dehydrated brains are more susceptible to concussion). Do you know of any research you can point me to focused on alcohol affecting blows to the head? This is literally the only time I've sparred while drunk.
can't comment on the science of it. but i call tell you about a incident i had a day after a serious hangover. i was running through a few drills and blocking a few punches and just the shock from blocking made my head feel shit. It made me extremely concerned about hydration levels. the interesting thing is i have had several proper fights drunk and taken some fairly good hits with bare knuckles and such and never even had a proper headache. the only conclusion i came too was the hydration level. i don't even spar the day after drinking and always drink heaps of water well before sparring.
 
You're only going to get worse if you continue boxing. There is no 100 percent recovery. You may want to box, but mistakes happen and partners are sloppy or simply don't care.

I've had 9 concussions and am still dealing with the after effects of the injuries years later.

As for treatments, I've done chiropractic, acupuncture and most recently functional neurology. I'm still having problems. Saw a bit of improvement with FN, but not enough to offset what i put out in time and money. I'm currently looking into neurofeedback and LENS neurofeedback (which is different) as a means of recovery. I've only started digging into the different forms of neurofeedback and I really don't want to be led on another wild goose chase.

Stop doing drugs, booze and protect yourself if you care about your well-being.
 
WHIPLASH UPDATE

Sup gentlemen,

My dad was telling me recently that back in the 60s he got rear-ended and received whiplash. The result for him was 2 years of headaches. I looked up the symptoms of whiplash and they are more or less consistent with symptoms of PCS. For more serious instances of whiplash, symptoms can persist for 5-7 years or even a lifetime.

Now, even though I have PCS from very light sparring and not heavy hits, I did for a split-second think that maybe I had whiplash from the blows I received when I first read about it. It's not outside the realm of possibility given how similar the symptoms for whiplash and PCS are and the longevity of both. And certainly, one can imagine that any whiplash type injury can probably cause concussion as well. Food for thought and something to keep in mind. Here are the two articles I've read on the matter:

https://www.hcalawyers.com.au/blog/the-long-term-effects-of-whiplash-after-a-car-accident/

http://www.healthline.com/health/whiplash#symptoms3

Isn't whiplash just your brain violently jolting in your skull anyway. And accompanied with neck pain

Yeah, I think it can be, but not in all instances. In any case, one might be able to apply research and findings about whiplash to their PCS rehab given how similar they seem to be. And there is undoubtedly more info on whiplash than there is on PCS.

I've recently discovered that my back--and consequently neck and muscles of the skull, since they all connect together--have been extremely tight and full of knots. I discovered this by injuring my back while stretching, over a year ago, and then seeking help in March 2018 (diagnosed with tightness and knots by a doctor and PTs). In March, I started professional back rehab which included stretching, strength training, massage, foam rolling, lacrosse ball rolling, and just had a trigger point injection therapy session with my doc today. My back was TIGHT (particularly in what feels like my thoracic extensors), even after rehab. Regardless of my 12 weeks of therapy, my back muscles were spasming throughout today's entire triggerpoint injection process--to repeat, I was TIGHT, and probably still am to some extent. I was injected around 15-20 times in various spots of my mid and upper back, including my traps. My doc told me that she had never seen such intensity of spasm in her 10+ years of injections.

I don't know what the cause of the initial tightness was--probably years of sitting with bad posture, inflexibility in general, stress, plus the time I had to take off which weakened me overall due to my injured knees (~5 months off exercise initially*). I bring up this tightness in my back--pre-PCS--because of the possible connection between what I thought was a concussion injury and PCS, and what really could have been an injury due to tightness and weakness in my back, neck, and skull, and its symptoms, AKA whiplash.

I was physically out of shape, with muscles emaciated from the ~5 months off, when I sustained my "concussion" (injured my knees in May 2015, did not work out at all in the intervening time until my fateful sparring session in September 2015.) According to this article, upon cessation of exercise, it can take anywhere from 6-31 weeks for muscular strength and size to atrophy for recreational athletes and 2-4 weeks for competitive athletes. As a person that was working out intensely every day, whilst being on a caloric deficit at the time of my knee injury, I probably fell into the latter category.

From May-September (my intervening time off) was ~21 weeks. That's weeks upon weeks of potential atrophy. Could it be that the tendons and musculature in my skull, neck, and back, being weak and inflexible due to the aforementioned time off, received whiplash due to that very weakness and inflexibility, during my light sparring session* in September? Could it be that my back's musculature was in constant spasm, for years afterward, with symptoms like:
  • Headaches
  • Concentration and memory problems
  • Ear issues (weird, variable levels in sound, specifically)
  • Vision issues (sensitivity to bright light, specifically)
  • Irritability
because of what may have been whiplash? Could my back's musculature have relaxed over time, albeit slowly, eventually mitigating the symptoms? It certainly sounds plausible, considering that I am now virtually symptom free (~2.5 years later) for no firmly established reason. These symptoms more or less line up with symptoms of whiplash. PCS is not clearly understood and whiplash sounds like a viable cause to me.

I've found a blog that I've cursorily reviewed which addresses whiplash in PCS and seems to corroborate my thoughts. I hope my post and the website below are of use to someone:

http://www.theinvisibleinjury.net/about-me/

http://www.theinvisibleinjury.net/b...ercise-into-my-life-two-years-post-concussion

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*I would later suffer from PCS and my back injury, which put me out another 2 years altogether, which served to tighten my back even more.

*According to the posted whiplash article: "A 1998 study on whiplash showed that injuries can be sustained at low speeds, even as slow as 8 km per hour," which means that my light sparring could certainly fall into the "impact speeds that can cause whiplash" category.
 
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If you've been training and sparring for nearly 10 years but never had a concussion...but then that light sparring session gave you the 1st ever concussion, then it's probable that everything before that light sparring while drunk session, was what really fucked you up (and not as much, this light session)....but you just toughed it out before and now it's caught up to you. And after 10 years of this, your brain doesn't like it anymore and is more susceptible to being concussed.

I'm not sure if you can get healed 100% even with no sparring for 2 years. The longest I've waited after a serious, secondary concussion was about 6 months. I don't think this will go away. Just don't spar hard often or at all....and don't get hit a lot.

I'd also like to update that I am pretty much back to 100% at this point. It only took me a little more than 2.5 years.
 
I'd also like to update that I am pretty much back to 100% at this point. It only took me a little more than 2.5 years.
Glad to hear that you are feeling well again!

Your hypothesis makes sense, whiplash symptoms are intertwined with PCS symptoms and often the two overlap. There are several theories behind this, one being that cranial nerves are traumatised during the whiplash, which effects the branches to several important functions including the autonomic nervous system. It could be several other things as well though. Subconcussive blows over a long period can definitely play into an increase in neuroinflammation, which in turn again effects important functions of your brain and nervous system.

There really is no one-size-fits-all cure for PCS and a lot is still not known about the pathology behind the condition. I'm pretty confident that the syndrome will soon be divided into subcategories to make it easier to distinguish its parts.

What helped you, besides time?

PS: I am just now putting the finishing touch on my bachelors on concussion, the autonomic nervous system and PCS as a physiotherapy. Pretty much been working with nothing else for the last three months.
 
Thanks Sano! Some interesting and useful info on physiology there.

To answer your question, besides time, I can't really say with confidence what helped. At some point I started doing light workouts in line with a post I made regarding exercise on page 2:

Guys, I should have mentioned this earlier, but there is some research that supports exercise as key to PCS recovery. It has to do with how blood flow and blood pressure is regulated in the brain. Check it out below.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201401/physical-activity-may-be-the-best-medicine-concussion

I think that may have helped to some degree, but I really can't be sure. IIRC I halted this exercise completely, shortly after starting, because of my back injury. FUBAR knees + back meant I couldn't do much exercise as far as I was concerned.

I also made sure to get enough sleep every night (9+ hours), omit activities that exacerbated my symptoms (like playing video games, for instance), and keep my nutrition healthy more or less, including by taking the supplements daily (for no shorter than 6 months IIRC) listed below:

- Vitamin A
- Vitamin B1 (Thiamin)
- Vitamin B-50 Complex
- Vitamin C
- Vitamin E
- Vitamin D-3
- Creatine
- Fish Oil
- Phosphatidyl Serine
- Piracetam (nootropic)
- Tea Vigo Tea and EGCG
- Turmeric Curcumin Extract (that I took with your basic tabletop black pepper--which contains piperine--to aid absorption)

I started taking these supplements about 6 months after my concussion--Feburary 2016--which may or may not have reduced their efficacy simply because I took them so long after receiving my concussion.

I got the idea for the majority of the above supplements from this Reddit thread:
 
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If your going to take curcumin make sure it's mixed with piperine........
 
It supposedly aids the curcumin in absorption. I used basic tabletop black pepper to get my piperine.

No it actually does......not supposedly.....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3918523/

Piperine
Besides these natural compounds have been also used to increase the bioavailability of curcumin. One of them is piperine, a major component of black pepper, known as inhibitor of hepatic and intestinal glucuronidation and is also shown to increase the bioavailability of curcumin. This effect of piperine on the pharmacokinetics of curcumin has been shown to be much greater in humans than in rats. In humans, curcumin bioavailability was increased by 2,000% at 45 minutes after co-administering curcumin orally with piperine, whereas in rats, it has been found that concomitant administration of piperine 20 mg/kg with curcumin 2 g/kg increased the serum concentration of curcumin by 154% for a short period of 1-2 hours post drug. The study shows that in the dosages used, piperine enhances the serum concentration, extent of absorption and bioavailability of curcumin in both rats and humans with no adverse effects [95].

Another study also showed that piperine (20 mg/kg orally) when administered with curcumin (2 g/kg orally) enhances the bioavailability of the latter up to 20-fold more in epileptic rats [111]. Enhanced bioavailability of curcumin was also evidenced by other researcher when curcumin was administered orally concomitant with piperine. Intestinal absorption of curcumin was also found relatively higher when administered concomitantly with piperine, and it stayed significantly longer in the body tissues [112]. In view of these findings, curcumin-piperine (Cu-Pi) nanoparticles has been prepared by various methods [113]. The bioavailability, cellular uptake and biological effects of this nanoparticles are being tested.
 
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No it actually does......not supposedly.....

Too true. My memory was hazy regarding my own past research and I didn't want to commit to an absolute in saying piperine definitely aided curcumin in absorption. I was too lazy to google and confirm. Thanks for doing the work for absolute clarification.
 
Too true. My memory was hazy regarding my own past research and I didn't want to commit to an absolute in saying piperine definitely aided curcumin in absorption. I was too lazy to google and confirm. Thanks for doing the work for absolute clarification.

PCS confirmed..........
 
Ah yes. One might argue that your dickheadedness is not only genetic, but is also a result of bad parenting.

That would be an assumption and doesn't say much about someone's character, when they make them with limited information........
 
Hey man, Just wanted to say thanks for your posts on the PCS thread it had alot of helpful info on there.
Hope you are 100% and back in training. Did you end up returning and competing?

I am in pretty much exact same situation. I'm 27 now, boxed from 14-19 and fought 4 times then quit to focus on my career and went back early this year.

Training was going excellent, my speed and power was where I wanted it to be.
But one day (June 2018)during drills (not even sparring) I took a 10% powered punch and afterwards I had consussive symptoms like memory loss, nausea dizzy etc. It got alot worse, then about 2 weeks later a similar thing happened.

I got an MRI done and it turned out that my brain looks healthy (I've never been KO'd or severely rocked)
Anyways I been training the last few months and finally sparred a few rounds last week (Sept 2018) Felt fucking amazing, we were going about 50% power and I ate a few jabs nothing crazy. Afterwards I felt a headache...no dizzyness or nausea...or sensitivity to noise or light. Just headache. and slight brain fog which lasted a few days.

Doctors told me I should be careful and that it could be PCS few months ago, but it's a bitter pill to swallow. Feel the same as you posted....wasted talent. I dont want to go pro, I have a great career. But just wanted to prove to myself I could step in there again. The last few days been fucking difficult because I genuinely love the sport and physically besides the headaches could have competed again.

Any of your advice I would appreciate given you've gone through a similar road. Thanks
S
 
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