Trump Strips Former CIA Chief John Brennan of Security Clearance

[Trotsky]

What's laughable (but not surprising) is that you would deny it is possible. It is a tidy arrangement when you can try to claim any elements of your side of the fence that engage in authoritarian behavior are really "right wing." Is ANTIFA right wing? Joseph Stalin is the most prolific mass murderer of the last century, and he was far left (by the American definition of it).

I don't make the habit of holding people strictly responsible for graphs of this sort, but this is really, REALLY bad. The only ones that are really defensible are Castro, Gandhi, and maybe Blair. Romney is way too high.

I gave a go at it for fun, as charting ideology is kind of a fun and interesting exercise to me. There's no perfect way to graph these things, and there are so many variables that are hard to consider (particularly with really uneven ideologies like Maoism, and the definition of authoritarianism in general as a matter of public/private, domestic/foreign, and in relation to democratic will on social issues).

I took about 15 minutes, which is still an absurdly long time for an internet post, so I didn't allocate too too much thought into it, besides what was already stored in the old noggin.

NOTE: Leninism refers to the model of government founded by Lenin following the Russian Revolution, and not to the classical Marxist theory espoused in works like State and Rev. Also, on second thought, Stalinism and fascism need to be tightened toward the middle.

 

[Philo-Publius]

I don't make the habit of holding people strictly responsible for graphs of this sort, but this is really, REALLY bad. The only ones that are really defensible are Castro, Gandhi, and maybe Blair. Romney is way too high.

I gave a go at it for fun, as charting ideology is kind of a fun and interesting exercise to me. There's no perfect way to graph these things, and there are so many variables that are hard to consider (particularly with really uneven ideologies like Maoism, and the definition of authoritarianism in general as a matter of public/private, domestic/foreign, and in relation to democratic will on social issues).

I took about 15 minutes, which is still an absurdly long time for an internet post, so I didn't allocate too too much thought into it, besides what was already stored in the old noggin.

NOTE: Leninism refers to the model of government founded by Lenin following the Russian Revolution, and not to the classical Marxist theory espoused in works like State and Rev. Also, on second thought, Stalinism and fascism need to be tightened toward the middle.

Not surprisingly, I don't agree with many of your placements. There is no way a President who withheld tax refunds from people who did not buy health insurance and targeted political opponents with the IRS (and possibly other government agencies) ranks so low on the Authoritarian/Libertarian scale.

Hitler's Nazism is also much further left with so many elements of socialism in its economic system.

Fascism shouldn't even be on the chart. Anyone can be a "fascist" regarding their political positions. It's definitely at the high point of the Authoritarian/Libertarian scale, but it can exist anywhere on the left/right scale.

 

[Trotsky]

Not surprisingly, I don't agree with many of your placements. There is no way a President who withheld tax refunds from people who did not buy health insurance and targeted political opponents with the IRS (and possibly other government agencies) ranks so low on the Authoritarian/Libertarian scale.

None of that is very persuasive The ACA tax was a constitutionally valid tax - no different than any other, and there was no link between Obama and the IRS policy to (*gasp*) target far-right groups whose belief system was openly that taxes are theft and no one should pay them for tax evasion inquiries. But, regardless, compared to his comparators (Clinton, GWB, Trump, Reagan) he was very libertarian. Frankly, thinking on the matter makes me want to move Clinton up a bit on the axis.

Hitler's Nazism is also much further left with so many elements of socialism in its economic system.

It's not, though. Hitler purged the party ranks of the remaining socialist-types during the Night of Long Knives. He also self-proclaimed himself to be a far-right traditionalist and described his greatest enemies (and the enemies of the German people) to be Marxists, social democrats, communists, and Jews.

Especially given that Nazism did away with direct state control of industry (opting instead for a cartel-ran economy), there's just no way to deny Nazism as a far-right ideology.

Fascism shouldn't even be on the chart. Anyone can be a "fascist" regarding their political positions. It's definitely at the high point of the Authoritarian/Libertarian scale, but it can exist anywhere on the left/right scale.

Fascism is a....better argument, I guess. But it's still not good. These are some of the generally agreed-upon components of fascism, most of which cast it as a firmly right-wing ideology:

1. Hyper-nationalism
2. "Lost-golden-age syndrome" i.e. nationalist-revisionist nostalgia
3. Self-definition by opposition (defining a movement by what it opposes)
4. Militarism
5. Fetishism of masculinity and organizing production along traditional gender roles
6. Leader cult
7. Strict hierarchy and partisanship/party loyalty
8. Proximity of corporate cartels to the government
9. Consolidation of information/disparagement of journalism
10. Scapegoating
11. Fluid economic philosophy
12. Use of protectionism with the goal of national self-sufficiency.

 

[Philo-Publius]

None of that is very persuasive The ACA tax was a constitutionally valid tax - no different than any other, and there was no link between Obama and the IRS policy to (*gasp*) target far-right groups whose belief system was openly that taxes are theft and no one should pay them for tax evasion inquiries. But, regardless, compared to his comparators (Clinton, GWB, Trump, Reagan) he was very libertarian. Frankly, thinking on the matter makes me want to move Clinton up a bit on the axis.

It's not, though. Hitler purged the party ranks of the remaining socialist-types during the Night of Long Knives. He also self-proclaimed himself to be a far-right traditionalist and described his greatest enemies (and the enemies of the German people) to be Marxists, social democrats, communists, and Jews.

Especially given that Nazism did away with direct state control of industry (opting instead for a cartel-ran economy), there's just no way to deny Nazism as a far-right ideology.

Hitler killed many competitors, and that fact is irrelevant to the discussion. He did implement socialist economic policy though. His government seized control of large corporations. He also abolished all workers' unions and created one government controlled workers' union to fix salaries (among other things) across the board.

Fascism is a....better argument, I guess. But it's still not good. These are some of the generally agreed-upon components of fascism, most of which cast it as a firmly right-wing ideology:

1. Hyper-nationalism
2. "Lost-golden-age syndrome" i.e. nationalist-revisionist nostalgia
3. Self-definition by opposition (defining a movement by what it opposes)
4. Militarism
5. Fetishism of masculinity and organizing production along traditional gender roles
6. Leader cult
7. Strict hierarchy and partisanship/party loyalty
8. Proximity of corporate cartels to the government
9. Consolidation of information/disparagement of journalism
10. Scapegoating
11. Fluid economic philosophy
12. Use of protectionism with the goal of national self-sufficiency.

Fascism and Authoritarianism are very similar concepts, and they can exist all across the left/right spectrum.

 

[Trotsky]

Hitler killed many competitors, and that fact is irrelevant to the discussion.

No, it's not. He slaughtered the social democrats and communists, and then he purged the socialist wing of his party. The fact that he he was punching left and not right is telling of something.

His government seized control of large corporations.

Hitler didn't nationalize corporations. He actually privatized quite a lot, and giant corporations were in close proximity, but were privately held.

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf
https://www.adl.org/news/op-ed/german-businesses-and-nazis
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

He also abolished all workers' unions and created one government controlled workers' union to fix salaries (among other things) across the board.

That's all right-wing. What was created was basically a universal company union, which have always been illegal even in the United States.

Fascism and Authoritarianism are very similar concepts, and they can exist all across the left/right spectrum.

Authoritarianism can, yes. In fact, there are arguments that, depending on the definition, authortarianism is doctrinally skewed left. I don't find them convincing, but I wholly concede that authoritarianism occurs all across the spectrum.

Fascism, however, is defined in such a way (see my previous post) that, if you are describing it as a political ideology and not just a stand-in buzzword for authoritarianism, it is distinctly right-wing.

 

[Philo-Publius]

No, it's not. He slaughtered the social democrats and communists, and then he purged the socialist wing of his party. The fact that he he was punching left and not right is telling of something.

It is irrelevant to the discussion that he slaughtered his competition if he implemented socialist policies himself anyway.

Hitler didn't nationalize corporations. He actually privatized quite a lot, and giant corporations were in close proximity, but were privately held.

http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf
https://www.adl.org/news/op-ed/german-businesses-and-nazis
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

He was Keynesian at best. He did seize control of corporations though (most them were owned by Jews). Bigger more involved government in the private sector ----> Left-wing.

That's all right-wing. What was created was basically a universal company union, which have always been illegal even in the United States.

Absolutely not. Standardizing salaries across the board in the private industry is not right wing/Capitalist at all. You have a hard enough time convincing conservatives just to increase the minimum wage here.

Authoritarianism can, yes. In fact, there are arguments that, depending on the definition, authortarianism is doctrinally skewed left. I don't find them convincing, but I wholly concede that authoritarianism occurs all across the spectrum.

Fascism, however, is defined in such a way (see my previous post) that, if you are describing it as a political ideology and not just a stand-in buzzword for authoritarianism, it is distinctly right-wing.

Then I guess the folks at ANTIFA and the usurpers in the intelligence community have embraced that "distinctly right-wing" ideology.

 

[Amerikuracana]

Why are people who are not currently in a job needing it keeping their clearance?

Should be signing their NDA on the way out and getting read off their programs.

Hey.. Watch that common sense.

 

[SammyJar88]

Brennan should be in prison or swinging from a noose. TRUMP 2020!

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

Why did Cheese get banned? He was a pretty active poster here iirc.

 

[Gazwald]

Why did Cheese get banned? He was a pretty active poster here iirc.

You just answered your own question.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/nike-sales-surge-31-report.3822969/page-2

 

[Spitfire3000]

Explain why, as that has never been the case. Also, Trump is clearly doing it punitively.

You are not bright on any level yet I guarantee you think you're an enlightened uber intellectual. Even leftist politico has more sense than you:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...nce-revoke-clapper-brennan-rice-hayden-219038

This is called the spoils system, it has been going on for a very long time. Bill Clinton and Obama both did far more than Trump has done so far in this regard. It's shocking that he has had a security clearance for going on 2 years into the new administration when he has attacked it on the media every day and called him a traitor. Why the hell would he be allowed to keep a security clearance then?

 

[DIDM]

Totally good, why should a butt hurt man, no longer holding office, keep security clearance?

 

[Fawlty]

Totally good, why should a butt hurt man, no longer holding office, keep security clearance?

There are certain questions that people should google (or ask about) before offering their opinions, to avoid looking like a fucking idiot, and this is one of them. But you're not the first, or even the fifteenth.

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

I disagree, I don't think the short term triumphs of a one-man-Ego machine are "destroying" anyone who spends a little while thinking bout what is important in life.

Nor that they are transforming anything but legions of Americans who feel they want to stomp the other Americans, hopefully rhetorically, but perhaps literally.

In the words of T.S. Eliot, "This is all so stupid." uhm paraphrasing.

Here is the real thing:


“Reilly: The human condition...they may remember the vision they have had, but they cease to regret it, maintain themselves by the common routine, learn to avoid excessive expectation, Become tolerant of themselves and others, Giving and taking, in the usual actions what there is to give and take. They do not repine; Are contented with the morning that separates and with the evening that brings together for casual talk before the fire. Two people who know they do not understand each other, breeding children whom they do not understand and who will never understand them.

Celia: Is that the best life?

Reilly: It is a good life. Though you will not know how good until you come to the end. But you will want nothing else, and the other life will be only like a book you have read once, and lost. In a world of lunacy, violence, stupidity, greed...it is a good life.” - T.S. Eliot from The Cocktail Party


The Trump Train is here today, and whatever way it decides to totter off the tracks, even the fire from all the rhetoric and empty ideas burned by the wayside will not last long.

This canned-Nationalism will not last, for it has no real ideas, no real solutions to human longing, and is rather a lot of outrage at the changing of the human condition. Some fair, some fair too at the push-back to the coarse arrogance, banality, and soft authoritarian new world gestures of President Obama's own doing, but more flailing and bleating from a Commander and Chief who has the composure of a small child more often than not.




Spoiler alert: I am on the right side of politics, and hope for something better when whatever direction the train choose to wreck in is cleared from the civilization station.

If it's right wing people who want to stomp the left, why does the left have a virtual monopoly currently on political violence in America?

 

[InternetHero]

If it's right wing people who want to stomp the left, why does the left have a virtual monopoly currently on political violence in America?

Probably because if we subtract the 4chan trolls, the actual White Nationalists in America could fill one small ghetto in Birmingham.

Based on the amount of people who attend the rallies and their activity in politics.

Trump-Nationalists and certainly alt-righters are slightly more politically troublesome, and yet in rather short supply other than making noise on the internet. How many legions does an Ann Coulter command?

The other part of that short answer - the further reaches of the American left has a talent for organizing mobs, mobs with violent intent.

I am sure the Nationalists would do the same if they had the numbers and influence anywhere relevant.

How can this be?

Well, rumor has it, the writings of Marx and Marinetti are full of hatred, resentment, and appeals to destruction. That's a problem, and one problem in that true fascist and socialist political constructs will be anxious to replace any moderate constitutional entity with whatever destructive and reductive single party entity they wish that has the "right" idea, an idea that they will use to crush those who are "wrong."

 

[ObamaPhoneLady]

Probably because if we subtract the 4chan trolls, the actual White Nationalists in America could fill one small ghetto in Birmingham.

Based on the amount of people who attend the rallies and their activity in politics.

Trump-Nationalists and certainly alt-righters are slightly more politically troublesome, and yet in rather short supply other than making noise on the internet. How many legions does an Ann Coulter command?

The other part of that short answer - the further reaches of the American left has a talent for organizing mobs, mobs with violent intent.

I am sure the Nationalists would do the same if they had the numbers and influence anywhere relevant.

How can this be?

Well, rumor has it, the writings of Marx and Marinetti are full of hatred, resentment, and appeals to destruction. That's a problem, and one problem in that true fascist and socialist political constructs will be anxious to replace any moderate constitutional entity with whatever destructive and reductive single party entity they wish that has the "right" idea, an idea that they will use to crush those who are "wrong."

That was a lot of words to say nothing of consequence.

 

[Trotsky]

If it's right wing people who want to stomp the left, why does the left have a virtual monopoly currently on political violence in America?

Derp.

The American right has far, far outpaced the left when it comes to political violence and domestic terrorism in every year since the end of the Cold War.

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-does-the-far-right-hold-a-near-monopoly-on-political-violence/

 

[InternetHero]

That was a lot of words to say nothing of consequence.

Keep in mind.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...islead-alt-right-leftists-anti-cop-jihadists/

 

[LangfordBarrow]

If it's right wing people who want to stomp the left, why does the left have a virtual monopoly currently on political violence in America?

Even though there is Antifa, that obviously goes further than just protesting, if you look at those pictures of Charlottesville it was the white supremacists that had body armor and even armed militias.