Preserving The Arts

[FightGuyOpenMind]

With the boom in MMA, and marketing machines trying to keep up with the demand should there be concern for the preservation of arts in their original stand alone context?

Have you noticed a decline in pure clubs, gyms or dojos?

I've seen closings of karate dojos, and to a lesser extent the shutting down of boxing gyms. The western half of the state is actually known for its mma culture. The eastern half of the state is known for boxing. The state use to be universally boxing. This is a result of the expansion and the ever increasing popularity of UFC, especially among younger practitioners.

Many of the arts are very deep as stand alone styles. They can often be lifelong endeavors. However, people are speeding up the process by taking what works for them and discarding what does not.

Is this good to have a culture that is built around cross training being the norm?

Or

Are we going to lose the old, and still effective techniques as the lifelong purists age, and die?

Thoughts?

 

[kenpeters8]

I'm glad those karate/tkd/kung fu mcdojos are closing down. People want to see proof of what works in a fight, not some mcdojo dorks with 20 different belts.

 

[BudoNoah]

Cross-training SHOULD be a norm, because it's a very valuable thing to do. The catch with that, though, is that you should be cross-training with a variety of specialists, and if there are no specialists then you do, indeed, run the risk of losing knowledge.

 

[j123]

They have not really been closing down, rather they've just took themselves off the market, re-branded themselves and popped back in

Lots of gyms around that were Karate/TKD places, all of a sudden are kickboxing, muaythai, "jiu-jitsu", all while having the same coaching staff.

I doubt we're ever going to lose the individual styles, people who need to specialize will do so. People who are in love with the cultural aspect of the style will go there specifically for it. Often when a MMA gym has a guy who's going to face a specialist, they either bring in guys to address that, or the fighter cross trains at a say a BJJ or MT gym to address those issues. Boxing gyms are always going to be around, and everyone cross-trains in that. MT guys especially (inb4 Arize)

 

[kenpeters8]

The mcdojo styles such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, ninjitsu, etc., are mostly for fat fuckers and scrawny dorks that can't fight. They don't wanna train hard, so they think they'll just tell people they're good at those mcdojo bullshit styles so they can feel good about themselves. How they think they can get some street cred is they'll say stupid shits like "oh that only works in the cage, won't work in the street when I'm allowed to poke eyes and grab dicks." These mcdojo dorks are delusional. What makes them think a trained amateur or pro MMA fighter doesn't know how to poke eyes and grab dicks either?! LOL!!! If you can't beat them with rules, how you expect to beat them without rules? NO SHIT!

 

[mmawarrior20]

Well i still see tma(traditional martial arts) having value to a mma praticality informed parent. It gets their kids to test the waters, not be a couch potato, and develope some athletic abilities. It can still be a stepping stone to mma-ish stuff without the risk of serious injury. So that being said i think stuff like wushu and tkd will still have customers

 

[shincheckin]

sort of piggy back off what j123 has said but basically, what we are seeing now is closing down of what does not work (mcdojos) and a higher interest in what does work.

Im glad to see the Mcdojos go, TKD and Karate are great arts at a high level, but not when they have been watered down as they have in the west. Give me a olympic TKD gym rather then a soccer mom TKD gym.

as much as a MMA hater that I am, I can acknowledge that its not going anywhere, and will probably always be the most popular # 1 combat sport......that being said it is still relativley new sport and the "cool thing" to do. in 50 years, it will be just another sport, rather than the cool sport for the cool kids to do.

Boxing is as old as America and will never leave and will always be popular.

BJJ has experienced a huge increase indirectly through MMA. I think pure BJJ will never leave either and always be around

MT has gained a huge increase indirectly through MMA. We are now at the beginning point of a MT explosion in the US. I see MT growing to be comparable to boxing or BJJ in the future.

so i dont think we will loose the arts of boxing bjj or MT.

i think we will loose some of the bullshit McDojo type stuff, but are we loosing or gaining with this happening? Its like a weeding out process, the bullshit is getting weeded out, whats worth it is remaining. Were not loosing century old fighting techniques, were loosing bullshit. Who knows, perhaps with the McDojos closing down, we may even see a increase in real TKD and Karate, indirectly through MMA such as MT is experiencing. I would be all for that. There litterally is no real Kyokushin gym I can train at in sourthern california.

get rid of the McDojos and bring in some real TKD and real Karate and we will all be better for it. The problem is when people think karate or TKD they dont think the real deal, they think mcdojo. Its like womens cardio kickboxing coming to the mind when you say MT.

McDojos will probably never vanish because they do have their place and i think they are great for kids, but I think we will start to see less of them and more exposure to real striking arts. Before there was no demand for a high level karate or TKD gym, where now, we may see that now or in the near future.

 

[thugpoet]

I miss the days of style vs style. Gym vs gym. But I for one want am glad the crappy gyms are closing. I do want people to be able to make a living but business is competitive and if your business is built on sand then it's only a matter of time till it sinks.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

The mcdojo styles such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, ninjitsu, etc., are mostly for fat fuckers and scrawny dorks that can't fight. They don't wanna train hard, so they think they'll just tell people they're good at those mcdojo bullshit styles so they can feel good about themselves. How they think they can get some street cred is they'll say stupid shits like "oh that only works in the cage, won't work in the street when I'm allowed to poke eyes and grab dicks." These mcdojo dorks are delusional. What makes them think a trained amateur or pro MMA fighter doesn't know how to poke eyes and grab dicks either?! LOL!!! If you can't beat them with rules, how you expect to beat them without rules? NO SHIT!

I don't know why you making the comment "grab dicks" was so funny to me, lol but it was.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

sort of piggy back off what j123 has said but basically, what we are seeing now is closing down of what does not work (mcdojos) and a higher interest in what does work.

Im glad to see the Mcdojos go, TKD and Karate are great arts at a high level, but not when they have been watered down as they have in the west. Give me a olympic TKD gym rather then a soccer mom TKD gym.

as much as a MMA hater that I am, I can acknowledge that its not going anywhere, and will probably always be the most popular # 1 combat sport......that being said it is still relativley new sport and the "cool thing" to do. in 50 years, it will be just another sport, rather than the cool sport for the cool kids to do.

Boxing is as old as America and will never leave and will always be popular.

BJJ has experienced a huge increase indirectly through MMA. I think pure BJJ will never leave either and always be around

MT has gained a huge increase indirectly through MMA. We are now at the beginning point of a MT explosion in the US. I see MT growing to be comparable to boxing or BJJ in the future.

so i dont think we will loose the arts of boxing bjj or MT.

i think we will loose some of the bullshit McDojo type stuff, but are we loosing or gaining with this happening? Its like a weeding out process, the bullshit is getting weeded out, whats worth it is remaining. Were not loosing century old fighting techniques, were loosing bullshit. Who knows, perhaps with the McDojos closing down, we may even see a increase in real TKD and Karate, indirectly through MMA such as MT is experiencing. I would be all for that. There litterally is no real Kyokushin gym I can train at in sourthern california.

get rid of the McDojos and bring in some real TKD and real Karate and we will all be better for it. The problem is when people think karate or TKD they dont think the real deal, they think mcdojo. Its like womens cardio kickboxing coming to the mind when you say MT.

McDojos will probably never vanish because they do have their place and i think they are great for kids, but I think we will start to see less of them and more exposure to real striking arts. Before there was no demand for a high level karate or TKD gym, where now, we may see that now or in the near future.

I agree with your post. What do Kyokushin dojos, MT, and boxing gyms usually have in common? Conditioned fighters. When the TMAs originally came to America the practitioners were all in great shape and many times war vets. They had practicality, and proper mindset. The problem is people typically don't want to feel pain. They don't want to be embarrassed.

We need more competent teachers that really know fighting. I'm currently involved in boxing and Shotokan Karate at the moment. I am a large part of the reason why we are sparring more often in the dojo. We even allow continuous full contact with control, including face shots. I feel I am helping them to see the limitations in their personal styles. Don't misunderstand me, not the limitations in Shotokan, but the limitations in the way some of the practitioners are applying it.

They are better understanding distance, and timing sparring with me, and how to be relaxed. Yes your legs, and kicks are a greater range than I am with my fists but who is faster? Who is more accurate? Today I jabbed one of our karatekas like 5 times straight in the face to the point where their eyes were closed, and they walked blinded into my right hand. Nothing hard, but showing them how easy they can be touched. Cover your face!!

My goal is to become a black belt and an instructor. I think competent teachers can preserve the arts well with practical applications, and actual fight experience. Cobra Kai is real. lol

 

[j123]

I agree with your post. What do Kyokushin dojos, MT, and boxing gyms usually have in common? Conditioned fighters. When the TMAs originally came to America the practitioners were all in great shape and many times war vets. They had practicality, and proper mindset. The problem is people typically don't want to feel pain. They don't want to be embarrassed.

We need more competent teachers that really know fighting. I'm currently involved in boxing and Shotokan Karate at the moment. I am a large part of the reason why we are sparring more often in the dojo. We even allow continuous full contact with control, including face shots. I feel I am helping them to see the limitations in their personal styles. Don't misunderstand me, not the limitations in Shotokan, but the limitations in the way some of the practitioners are applying it.

They are better understanding distance, and timing sparring with me, and how to be relaxed. Yes your legs, and kicks are a greater range than I am with my fists but who is faster? Who is more accurate? Today I jabbed one of our karatekas like 5 times straight in the face to the point where their eyes were closed, and they walked blinded into my right hand. Nothing hard, but showing them how easy they can be touched. Cover your face!!

My goal is to become a black belt and an instructor. I think competent teachers can preserve the arts well with practical applications, and actual fight experience. Cobra Kai is real. lol

Legit TMA gyms, the people there are very athletic, thats an attribute thats useful to any style, esp. combat sports. At the early stages as a competitor, athleticism is the most deciding factor

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Legit TMA gyms, the people there are very athletic, thats an attribute thats useful to any style, esp. combat sports. At the early stages as a competitor, athleticism is the most deciding factor

There is a physical conditioning standard athletes are expected to be at in different sports across different levels from recreational, regional, national, Olympic, etc. These standards are measurable with data behind them. TMAs should not be any different I feel.

 

[kenpeters8]

Well i still see tma(traditional martial arts) having value to a mma praticality informed parent. It gets their kids to test the waters, not be a couch potato, and develope some athletic abilities. It can still be a stepping stone to mma-ish stuff without the risk of serious injury. So that being said i think stuff like wushu and tkd will still have customers

Wushu is NOT a martial art. It's just dancing.

 

[shincheckin]

i agree with sparring, even hard sparring, but the difference is the intent behind it. I can spar hard with my friends, but not with the intent to injure them. so if i get a chance to blast them as hard as I possibly could, i still take the shot, but turn it down a bit, so i still pop them, but not with the intent to break their nose or something along those lines.

Jesse Enkamp made a video, that at the top of the mountain, all styles look the same.



I am a fan of this guys karate channel, i think its good stuff. this video also is a good demonstation of Jesses point, as the similarities here to MT are quite ovious

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

i agree with sparring, even hard sparring, but the difference is the intent behind it. I can spar hard with my friends, but not with the intent to injure them. so if i get a chance to blast them as hard as I possibly could, i still take the shot, but turn it down a bit, so i still pop them, but not with the intent to break their nose or something along those lines.

Jesse Enkamp made a video, that at the top of the mountain, all styles look the same.



I am a fan of this guys karate channel, i think its good stuff. this video also is a good demonstation of Jesses point, as the similarities here to MT are quite ovious

Karate Nerd is legit. His brother had a run in the UFC I believe.

 

[CFGroup]

Traditional styles will always exist, because their source is not in the U.S.

like saying "will Indian food be preserved?" Well people in India will eat Indian food just like the Japanese will always train their arts, Thai's will always train Muay Thai, so on and so on.

Americans train what's on the boob tube for the most part, so whatever is being pushed by Hollywood is what Americans will choose.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

Traditional styles will always exist, because their source is not in the U.S.

like saying "will Indian food be preserved?" Well people in India will eat Indian food just like the Japanese will always train their arts, Thai's will always train Muay Thai, so on and so on.

Americans train what's on the boob tube for the most part, so whatever is being pushed by Hollywood is what Americans will choose.

I agree it will be preserved in some context. People aren't on a national scale just practicing martial arts in Japan however. They have other interests. Japanese Judo did clean up in Rio, but the everyday person is not walking around with martial arts on the brain. The youth are very interested in other sports like basketball, and baseball. They are also very interested in hip hop, many American inspired things.

I guess my post was actually more about the state of TMAs in America. People, especially youth, are more interested in MMA culture. As the older generation of TMA enthusiasts retire, or die my question is what happens to their arts? Will they largely die with them?

 

[panamaican]

I agree it will be preserved in some context. People aren't on a national scale just practicing martial arts in Japan however. They have other interests. Japanese Judo did clean up in Rio, but the everyday person is not walking around with martial arts on the brain. The youth are very interested in other sports like basketball, and baseball. They are also very interested in hip hop, many American inspired things.

I guess my post was actually more about the state of TMAs in America. People, especially youth, are more interested in MMA culture. As the older generation of TMA enthusiasts retire, or die my question is what happens to their arts? Will they largely die with them?

The everyman in any culture is not walking around with martial arts on the brain. The martial arts have always been a fringe pursuit.

With that said, these arts will never truly fade away nor need preserving. The cultures which gave birth to them will continue to support them to some extent. If they ever do fade away it will be because they've evolved into something better. Which is what any fighting art should do.

The decline of pure clubs isn't necessarily a bad thing. A good fighter should be well rounded and seek specialization after understanding the basics. Well-rounded these days is better defined than it was 30 years ago thanks to the respect that ground fighting has earned. Every good fighter should have some competency in both stand up and ground fighting. And that's where the majority of the gyms should be - teaching basic competency.

After that, you can specialize in punching (boxing), general stand up skills (karate, MT, kickboxing), submission skills (BJJ) or positional skills (wrestling). Pure clubs will always exist to meet that need but since not everyone is going to feel drawn to specializing in the same thing, the need will be smaller.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

The everyman in any culture is not walking around with martial arts on the brain. The martial arts have always been a fringe pursuit.

With that said, these arts will never truly fade away nor need preserving. The cultures which gave birth to them will continue to support them to some extent. If they ever do fade away it will be because they've evolved into something better. Which is what any fighting art should do.

The decline of pure clubs isn't necessarily a bad thing. A good fighter should be well rounded and seek specialization after understanding the basics. Well-rounded these days is better defined than it was 30 years ago thanks to the respect that ground fighting has earned. Every good fighter should have some competency in both stand up and ground fighting. And that's where the majority of the gyms should be - teaching basic competency.

After that, you can specialize in punching (boxing), general stand up skills (karate, MT, kickboxing), submission skills (BJJ) or positional skills (wrestling). Pure clubs will always exist to meet that need but since not everyone is going to feel drawn to specializing in the same thing, the need will be smaller.

I made the comment about people not walking around with martial arts on the brain because many people believe that martial arts is a big boom in Japan. That Japan is the preservation of TMAs. That may not necessarily be true. The education system has even tried to reintegrate the traditional arts into the school curriculum:

"Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has made reforming the education system to put more emphasis on patriotism and traditional culture and values a signature policy since taking office a year ago.

Japanese children can study dance and martial arts at present, but those classes are optional and popular dance styles often attract more students than traditional arts."

(https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ged-to-learn-martial-arts-idUST33848020070905)

I lived in the "birthplace of karate" Okinawa for two years. It is not as in your face as people may think. Down south towards Naha there was more interest. However, you go anywhere else, the attention level was normal if at all. They are actually very interested in American pursuits. We played pick up games of basketball with the youth quite often. Riding the expressways you'll pass quite a few baseball fields. Boxing is popular as well.

Being well rounded as gyms are gearing to is definitely beneficial. However, their application comes directly from MMA many times. MMA for one does not allow small joint manipulation. This is something I'm becoming more and more aware of the longer I'm exposed to TMAs.

As the instructors in these purist clubs become older, I wonder how easy it will be to access true instruction over here in the US. Judo I know is not very easy to come by where I am. However, BJJ or some derivative of often times has multiple gyms in the same city.

TMAs will be there. I just wonder how accessible they'll be.

 

[aerius]

The mcdojo styles such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, ninjitsu, etc., are mostly for fat fuckers and scrawny dorks that can't fight. They don't wanna train hard, so they think they'll just tell people they're good at those mcdojo bullshit styles so they can feel good about themselves. How they think they can get some street cred is they'll say stupid shits like "oh that only works in the cage, won't work in the street when I'm allowed to poke eyes and grab dicks." These mcdojo dorks are delusional. What makes them think a trained amateur or pro MMA fighter doesn't know how to poke eyes and grab dicks either?! LOL!!! If you can't beat them with rules, how you expect to beat them without rules? NO SHIT!

I object to your use of the term "McDojo style". With few exceptions, the effectiveness of a martial art depends mostly on the quality of the Dojo/instructors. To use an example, there's a shitload of kickboxing and Muay Thai gyms in my area, a lot of them can't even teach you a proper stance or footwork but you get to bang out 10 hit combos on the pads. They suck at teaching effective fighting skills, so by your definition Muay Thai and kickboxing are also "McDojo styles". The only thing that wouldn't be a "McDojo style" is boxing since they actually teach proper fundamentals and concepts for fighting in most gyms. When your definition is that broad it's next to meaningless, as it can be applied to pretty much any martial art or fighting style which I feel like shitting on.

As for losing the traditional martial arts, I think it was slowly happening anyway, at least in my area. For instance, did you know that there's elbow strikes in TKD? There are. But when my former instructor retires, if he hasn't done so already, there will only be one person I know of to carry on those teachings.