Protecting your chin with shoulder, yay or nay

[JustOnce]

I believe that @Sinister has said before that you can protect your chin with your shoulder without having to hunch your shoulders by using hip flexion to change the angle of your upper body enough that the shoulder is blocking the path to your chin without having to move it out of the socket.

what, hip flexion? I think a lot of people bring up a lot of valid points, but I can't visualize it lol

 

[JustOnce]

No. It would telegraph your punch. Don't forcibly shrug your shoulder. People who have a decent boxing IQ will pick up on your shoulder shrug, and understand it meant the punch was coming. You'd want to throw your punch as natural as possible to prevent telegraph, stiffness, and fatigue. Granted your chin is tucked you'll find the shoulder covers the chin naturally upon extension.

You'll find your shoulder shrugged on either arm as a means to prevent a counter when the punch is fully extended, and then you'd want to retract your hand to your face as fast as possible without looping.

Think of the cover like this when punching: 1) Hand 2) Arm 3) Shoulder then 4) Hand again. If your chin is tucked, and you throw the punches properly you don't have to consciously shrug. The shoulder will more or less cover the chin naturally on the extension. The biggest thing to consider is tucking your chin. I've always been taught chin tucked hands up. This will ensure that something (hand, arm, shoulder) will cover it.

[yt]

See, Duane teaching how to throw a lefthook, his shoulder is up, though he doesn't explicitly say it,

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

[yt]

See, Duane teaching how to throw a lefthook, his shoulder is up, though he doesn't explicitly say it,

If you notice the line that the punch is following with the target being the chin the biomechanics of the body will inevitably cause the shoulder to appear "up". The humerus is attached to the shoulder joint.

Notice the correction he made in the hook. It was less a matter of his shoulder being "up" as it was his chin being down. His chin placement was altogether different the first versus the second time.

Shrugging your shoulders is working against gravity. You will become tense, fatigued, and you will telegraph.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

what, hip flexion? I think a lot of people bring up a lot of valid points, but I can't visualize it lol

If you watch the videos he's done in the thread called the tile exercise, he explains hip flexion in a way that's easy to understand. I can't really explain it myself, I'm not an expert, more an interested new person.

 

[panamaican]

I think that kind of overlooks the more important question of "when" you're throwing your punches and where you are relative to your opponent.

If you're positioned ideally then you don't need to raise the shoulder to protect your chin because your opponent isn't in a position to fire back. Obviously, that's easier said than done but no less true for that.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

I thought about this point in class to try and explain it from biomechanics of the body. Bear with me.

Looking at the hook:

The idea is to 1) rotate the hips in order to generate power and from a boxing standpoint you want to 2) tuck your chin

Correct?

Ok what plane of motion does rotation occur in? Transverse
What plane of motion does tucking your chin (cervical flexion) occur in? Sagittal

Your hips are rotating your torso to generate power, and your arm (fist) is the delivery mechanism for that power to your opponent's face.

Your chin is being tucked (cervical flexion) in order to provide a defense for your face.

If you look at the anatomical position the transverse and sagittal plane are perpendicular to each other. They will cross.

Your punch will be parallel to the rotation of your hips. The rotation of your hips to deliver the punch and the cervical flexion that causes the tucking of your chin will by nature come to an intersection. They will cross.

This intersection is what you are observing when the chin appears to be tucked in the shoulder.

It is not that you are advised to shrug your shoulders. The biomechanics of the body through safe boxing defense accompanied with delivering a punch will naturally result in what you see happening with the chin and shoulder.

 

[shincheckin]

i dont think you raise your shoulder on purpose, for example i dont throw a punch and try and lift my shoulder.

I throw a punch, and with proper rotation the shoulder "lifts" by itself.

hope that makes sense.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

i dont think you raise your shoulder on purpose, for example i dont throw a punch and try and lift my shoulder.

I throw a punch, and with proper rotation the shoulder "lifts" by itself.

hope that makes sense.

This seems to be way more difficult to explain online than in person. No one is thinking to lift their shoulder. It's literally just a beneficial byproduct of our anatomy that lends itself well to fighting. lol

After this question was posed I literally stood in front of a mirror and attempted to punch, with my chin tucked, in a way that my shoulder would NOT cover my chin. It was impossible.

 

[shincheckin]

This seems to be way more difficult to explain online than in person. No one is thinking to lift their shoulder. It's literally just a beneficial byproduct of our anatomy that lends itself well to fighting. lol

After this question was posed I literally stood in front of a mirror and attempted to punch, with my chin tucked, in a way that my shoulder would NOT cover my chin. It was impossible.

that was exactly my point. full rotation of the arm "pops" the shoulder up.

Try it without rotating your arm, you will find the shoulder not cover your chin as well.

 

[panamaican]

what, hip flexion? I think a lot of people bring up a lot of valid points, but I can't visualize it lol

One way to visualize it (other than the tile exercise which is excellent and better that what I'm about to type) is to imagine bringing one elbow to the opposite knee. So, using your core to bring the left elbow to the right knee (or right elbow to the left knee) while holding your guard will bring your shoulder naturally into a protective position without having to hunch your shoulder.

 

[Ilk]

Regarding the hook


If you watch carefully the technique the shoulder and the elbow kind of protect you (obviously not the best protection) while you punch.

But seriously you should not worry too much regarding counters while you punch. If you get countered obviously you are not in the best position to throw the selected punch.

I ve had many and I mean many problems with the 1-2 combination and being countered on the 2. Until I figured I throw the two from either a bad position or just risking with it. This is why nowadays I ll grind way more with my jab to force my opponent to get his hands up, before throwing the 2 or I will step a bit to the left with the jab and extend that 2 big time, while pulling my left shoulder. This way my 2 will get good full extension and I will be in a small angle that protects me from most long range range punches.

 

[shincheckin]

But seriously you should not worry too much regarding counters while you punch.

 

[Ilk]

I was not clear enough. I am sorry. You should not worry about your punching technique being a reason for getting countered and as the topic asks (should I shrug or not, or use specific punching technique that protects me from countering while punching). If counters happen it is not mostly due to your punching technique it is due to your current positioning and punch selection or rather more specific - movement (punch included, all movement included) selection.

I would like to give an example. Suppose you are fighting a SP boxing rules. General rule is that the cross is a good weapon. Another general assumption is that there is a lot of fight with both lead hands and lead feet. So if you go blindly for a 1-2 chances you are getting countered by a right hook from the SP are very high. However if you push down their lead hand with your lead and use that extended lead to deliver a power 2 to the body, chances you are getting countered by a right hook from the SP ... are lets say very low. And that is a fundamental strategy to fight a SP nowadays.

What this means? You are not worried on the technique on the body cross, you have done your best to position yourself in a favourable position to deliver that right cross to the body without getting countered.

Sure if you over extend you may get some nasty left hooks or uppercuts, but that is again a positioning problem rather than punching technique problem of the right cross. And the problem starts at when you were pushing down the SP lead hand and perhaps not judging the distance right from there, not from your over extending technique of the right cross to the body.

Hope that helps.

 

[shincheckin]

I was not clear enough. I am sorry. You should not worry about your punching technique being a reason for getting countered and as the topic asks (should I shrug or not, or use specific punching technique that protects me from countering while punching). If counters happen it is not mostly due to your punching technique it is due to your current positioning and punch selection or rather more specific - movement (punch included, all movement included) selection.

I would like to give an example. Suppose you are fighting a SP boxing rules. General rule is that the cross is a good weapon. Another general assumption is that there is a lot of fight with both lead hands and lead feet. So if you go blindly for a 1-2 chances you are getting countered by a right hook from the SP are very high. However if you push down their lead hand with your lead and use that extended lead to deliver a power 2 to the body, chances you are getting countered by a right hook from the SP ... are lets say very low. And that is a fundamental strategy to fight a SP nowadays.

What this means? You are not worried on the technique on the body cross, you have done your best to position yourself in a favourable position to deliver that right cross to the body without getting countered.

Sure if you over extend you may get some nasty left hooks or uppercuts, but that is again a positioning problem rather than punching technique problem of the right cross. And the problem starts at when you were pushing down the SP lead hand and perhaps not judging the distance right from there, not from your over extending technique of the right cross to the body.

Hope that helps.

gotya