Remember when "they hate us for our freedom" was mocked?

[hillelslovak87]

OK at this point you refuse to admit you're cherry picking, once you admit that, you have no evidence. This discussion isn't gonna go anywhere until you admit that.

As for you question on the expansion, is it unique to Islam to misuse and misquote scripture to justify horrendous atrocities? You seem to constantly give a pass to the good book and its imaginary sky father.

If Jesus or the Bible told people to love one another, why did Christians destroy pagan temples and force convert pagans, and drive Muslims and Jews from their homes?


Because they're shitty people. This is where we can both agree. The compulsion to murder and attack and expand isn't inherent in the Quran, it is however within the Muslim leaders ability to justify it. Much like how colonists justified slavery with the Bible.

I brought like a dozen passages from the Quran itself, and a few Hadith. I fail to see how that is cherry picking, given the opinions of Muslim scholars, warlords, and influential thinkers over the last 1400 years or so. When Muslims were conquering Europe, there was no question of what the Quran said. When ISIS quotes verse after verse from the Quran maniacally, there is no question that they know their book.

Fight those from among the people of the Book(christians and jews), who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. -Surah 9:29 (Sher Ali)

Was it the Jews and Christians who attempted to kill Muhammed and fought against him? No. Christendom did not care about the foreign threat, and the Jews were actually the first in Mecca to take Muhammed seriously, while the polytheists called for his head.

The messenger Muhammad (saw) said: “Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children.When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhaajiroun (migrants) and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhaajiroun. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fay’ except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers).If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizyah (tax). If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them…” (Saheeh Muslim #1731)

“If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizyah (tax). If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.” The Jizyah is a small charge or tax which every non-Muslim must pay to the Khaleefah (leader of the Muslims). In return, the non-Muslim will be under a covenant, thus making it prohibited for any Muslim to violate his sanctity. This order from the Messenger Muhammad (saw) is very clear; if they refuse to embrace Islam, demand from them the Jizyah i.e. implement the Sharee’ah over them. If they refuse both of these options, to embrace Islam or live by it as a system of governance, “seek Allah’s help and fight them.”

Bukhari, the most well respected Hadith compiler, wrote:

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it." 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."


O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). -Surah 9:123 (Pickthall)

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. -Surah 2:216 (Pickthall)

Ibn Khaldun, the famous 14th century Islamic historian and philosopher in his classic and most notable work, the Muqaddimah says of jihad:

In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, the caliphate (spiritual), the royal (government and military) authority are united in Islam, so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them at the same time.

Here is Mawlana Sayid Abul Ala Mawdudi, one of the most influential Muslim scholars of all time

Islam is not a normal religion like the other religions in the world, and Muslim nations are not like normal nations. Muslim nations are very special because they have a command from Allah to rule the entire world and to be over every nation in the world.

Islam is a revolutionary faith that comes to destroy any government made by man. Islam doesn’t look for a nation to be in a better condition than another nation. Islam doesn’t care about the land or who owns the land. The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy. In order to fulfill that goal, Islam can use every power available every way it can be used to bring worldwide revolution. This is Jihad.

Omar Ahmed, head of CAIR, once stated, while being filmed knowingly, to a crowd of Muslims:

Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.

Do you need more? Really?

On The Bible: Once again, yes, it is an appalling book. A book that The Quran steals from at wholesale. Fortunately though, the massive genocides and dominations of the old testament never actually happened. The Canaan domination never happened, as Babylon was the garrison power in Canaan during the material times.

Christendom did a lot of bad things, for sure, and on a massive scale. However, the Crusades, for example, only happened AFTER Muslims had raged across Europe, and something had to be done. On slavery, the slavers used the bible to justify slavery because the bible commands people to own and keep slaves in both the old and new testament.

Islam is inherently violent. It is founded by a warlord, and it's maintenance went to warlord after warlord, caliph after caliph. It;s primary means of advancing the faith is Jihad.

 

[DickSarp]

10 years ago or so I remember people used to make fun of those who would say Muslim terrorists hate us for our freedoms. They would say 9/11 was a response to American imperialism. With all the terrorist attacks on Europe, it seems like the neocons may have been right. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

What you typed makes no sense. There is nothing coherent in your rambling that deserves a response. You make no argument to dispute the fact that blowback exists and Bush's bullshit about 'hating freedoms' roped in the obvious suckers for support in slaying Iraqi kids, women and seniors just so the US could have a military foothold in the ME while muscularly developing new burgeoning Markets.

I bet you're feeling pretty heroic right now. Did you see the pics of the kids America blew to bits in Iraq?

 

[cincymma79]

No, it is still wrong and makes no sense.


The Islamic State asks muslims to attack Europe because they are part of the coalition facing them, especially France. Basically, your country kills muslims we kill you.

No isis specifically said they hate us for our freedoms. Literally

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxn...sis-details-why-hate-in-new-magazine.amp.html

 

[Deleted member 159002]

What you typed makes no sense. There is nothing coherent in your rambling that deserves a response. You make no argument to dispute the fact that blowback exists and Bush's bullshit about 'hating freedoms' roped in the obvious suckers for support in slaying Iraqi kids, women and seniors just so the US could have a military foothold in the ME while muscularly developing new burgeoning Markets.

I bet you're feeling pretty heroic right now. Did you see the pics of the kids America blew to bits in Iraq?

What were the terrorism victims in Spain, France, and England receiving blowback for?

 

[uppercutbus]

Infelidicious, bombing bitches, eating pork like loco.
Walking down the street without a hijab now that's a nono.

Infelidicious make them boys go loco,
I got my wristband, like your neighborhood
I'm a no go.

I like the cut of your hijab, but still

 

[Vagitarian]

I brought like a dozen passages from the Quran itself, and a few Hadith. I fail to see how that is cherry picking.

You: heres proof they wanna kill people
Your Quran quote: kill people...
The rest of the quote you intentionally left out: Until the enemy surrenders.

You: See???? they're murderers.

Do you really need me to spell this out for you? Im at a loss at how much clearer I can be.

 

[hillelslovak87]

You: heres proof they wanna kill people
Your Quran quote: kill people...
The rest of the quote you intentionally left out: Until the enemy surrenders.

You: See???? they're murderers.

Do you really need me to spell this out for you? Im at a loss at how much clearer I can be.

And what happens when the enemies of God surrender? They pay the Jizya and live as holy subjects. And even then, if I convert, I run the risk of being slaughtered by any number of other Muslim sects, and if I am subjugated, I run even more a risk of the same. This is abjection, this is subjugation. Like I said, convert, subjugate or kill. I say fuck all three options.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

well they clearly hate our freedoms

you don't actually think their women choose to dress like that, or want to get FGM or raped, do you?

 

[Vagitarian]

And what happens when the enemies of God surrender? They pay the Jizya and live as holy subjects. And even then, if I convert, I run the risk of being slaughtered by any number of other Muslim sects, and if I am subjugated, I run even more a risk of the same. This is abjection, this is subjugation. Like I said, convert, subjugate or kill. I say fuck all three options.

Non- muslims were exempted from the zakat tax, which all muslims had to pay. So its not like they only taxed the christians and jews. Second, the dhimmi were exempted from military service, and any dhimmi who served in the army were exempted from the jizya tax. So quit trying to create a false dilemma.

Being slaughtered by muslims? What? Now you're arguing a completely different point. Their quran says don't do that unless they attack you first and stop once they stop. So theoretically and legally you are safe. Now if you're arguing that Muslims will be shitty and ignore that part of the quran then thats different.

And again, youre acting like this is exclusive to Islam. Christianity had even less choices: convert or die.

well they clearly hate our freedoms

you don't actually think their women choose to dress like that, or want to get FGM or raped, do you?

Ive heard the argument that if the quran says to be modest, and a woman truly wants to follow the religion and be faithful, she will choose for herself to wear it. The hijab allowed a woman to be in the presence of men in public without violating the rules.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Non- muslims were exempted from the zakat tax, which all muslims had to pay. So its not like they only taxed the christians and jews. Second, the dhimmi were exempted from military service, and any dhimmi who served in the army were exempted from the jizya tax. So quit trying to create a false dilemma.

Being slaughtered by muslims? What? Now you're arguing a completely different point. Their quran says don't do that unless they attack you first and stop once they stop. So theoretically and legally you are safe. Now if you're arguing that Muslims will be shitty and ignore that part of the quran then thats different.

And again, youre acting like this is exclusive to Islam. Christianity had even less choices: convert or die.





Ive heard the argument that if the quran says to be modest, and a woman truly wants to follow the religion and be faithful, she will choose for herself to wear it. The hijab allowed a woman to be in the presence of men in public without violating the rules.

'allowed a woman to be in the presence of men in public'......

that's precisely my pt. they have to be ALLOWED

 

[Vagitarian]

'allowed a woman to be in the presence of men in public'......

that's precisely my pt. they have to be ALLOWED

Well their funny looking book says women need to be covered in the presence of men to be devout. If she wants to be devout (no complulsion) then she has a right to wear it. Its messed up but it has to do with their standards of decency. Christianity and judaism both have their rules as well.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Well their funny looking book says women need to be covered in the presence of men to be devout. If she wants to be devout (no complulsion) then she has a right to wear it. Its messed up but it has to do with their standards of decency. Christianity and judaism both have their rules as well.

when you are raised in that society, you have no choice. Peep their penalty for Apostasy and explain to me how the women have ANY say in what goes on in those societies. You can't just abstain from the religion and go about your day, it's not the US

I spent a year, a whole year, in the capital city of Afghanistan yet I didn't see one single adult woman. Not even covered, I literally didn't see one even walking around. That's a problem

 

[Vagitarian]

when you are raised in that society, you have no choice. Peep their penalty for Apostasy and explain to me how the women have ANY say in what goes on in those societies. You can't just abstain from the religion and go about your day, it's not the US

I spent a year, a whole year, in the capital city of Afghanistan yet I didn't see one single adult woman. Not even covered, I literally didn't see one even walking around. That's a problem

Because Afghanistan represents all of Islam right? There are muslim majority countries where you're not allowed to wear hijabs at school. Hell until Erdogan, hijabs weren't allowed in any public or govt buildings in Turkey.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Because Afghanistan represents all of Islam right? There are muslim majority countries where you're not allowed to wear hijabs at school. Hell until Erdogan, hijabs weren't allowed in any public or govt buildings in Turkey.

I understand that, but the anecdote was stated for a reason. I've been to Somalia, Djibouti, Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, Bahrain, Kyrgyzstan, etc. and most of those environments are a lot closer to Afghanistan than say Kuwait
Kuwait is much much more open in regards to women's rights (usually ranked the highest in the Arab world for equality indexes), but it's still nothing like the western world or even Israel not too far away.

 

[NakedRare]

10 years ago or so I remember people used to make fun of those who would say Muslim terrorists hate us for our freedoms. They would say 9/11 was a response to American imperialism. With all the terrorist attacks on Europe, it seems like the neocons may have been right. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Vagitarian]

I understand that, but the anecdote was stated for a reason. I've been to Somalia, Djibouti, Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, Bahrain, Kyrgyzstan, etc. and most of those environments are a lot closer to Afghanistan than say Kuwait
Kuwait is much much more open in regards to women's rights (usually ranked the highest in the Arab world for equality indexes), but it's still nothing like the western world or even Israel not too far away.

Stopped taking you seriously right there. Unless youre in some village in the south, Turkey and Kyrgyzstan are nothing like Afghanistan. Theres gay clubs in Istanbul, and less than half wear hijabs. A woman can go to Izmir, Antalya, Istanbul, Ankara and several cities and fear no repercussion for not wearing a hijab. There's also turkish women wearing headscarves out of cultural reasons, which is very prevalent. Its not about the quran. They were wearing that thing even before the spread of islam to the Turks.

Same thing with Kyrgyzstan, its part of the traditional garb in the country the same way a hat is. No one is compelled to wear one. Even the Kyrgyz president once said suicide bombers dont wear miniskirts. People in the metropolitan areas think of hijabs are barbaric and regressive.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Stopped taking you seriously right there. Unless youre in some village in the south, Turkey and Kyrgyzstan are nothing like Afghanistan. Theres gay clubs in Istanbul, and less than half wear hijabs. A woman can go to Izmir, Antalya, Istanbul, Ankara and several cities and fear no repercussion for not wearing a hijab. There's also turkish women wearing headscarves out of cultural reasons, which is very prevalent. Its not about the quran. They were wearing that thing even before the spread of islam to the Turks.

Same thing with Kyrgyzstan, its part of the traditional garb in the country the same way a hat is. No one is compelled to wear one. Even the Kyrgyz president once said suicide bombers dont wear miniskirts. People in the metropolitan areas think of hijabs are barbaric and regressive.

I said MOST....

do you know what the word MOST means?
I was literally in Bishkek, you don't need to explain to me how the metropolitan people dress in that country. Thanks tho

 

[Armbars]

No, it is still wrong and makes no sense.


The Islamic State asks muslims to attack Europe because they are part of the coalition facing them, especially France. Basically, your country kills muslims we kill you.

What did the spanish do?

I disagree with your statement.

There is clearly an obvious minority of Muslims who hate western values and will surrender their own life to attack them. To deny this is cowardice.

 

[Vagitarian]

I said MOST....

do you know what the word MOST means?
I was literally in Bishkek, you don't need to explain to me how the metropolitan people dress in that country. Thanks tho

Why include them in a list of Muslim countries when you're talking about women being compelled to wear a hijab?

Your argument was Islamic society compels you to wear a hijab. I can name at least 7 Muslim societies where no one is compelled to wear a hijab.

 

[HunterSdVa29]

Why include them in a list of Muslim countries when you're talking about women being compelled to wear a hijab?

Your argument was Islamic society compels you to wear a hijab. I can name at least 7 Muslim societies where no one is compelled to wear a hijab.

I never said shit about being compelled to wearing a hijab specifically, I listed that along w/ FGM and rape as problems w/ their patriarchal society.
A society that is undeniably present in every muslim controlled nation on earth
comprehension playa
In fact, I said 'dress like that' I didn't even mention the hijab or niqab specifically. You're projecting bruh