renzos arm triangle

tekkenfan

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he prefers to finish from the knees like holding a basic side control doesnt like to sprawl how do you feel about that? i feellike the sprawl at least keeps me parallel with the guys arteries to hit the choke being on knees i feel like i could be to high to get a solid choke
 
I find that it depends on how secure it feels. If I know I've got it locked in and it doesn't need adjustment, I'll stay up and squeeze. If I know its going to need adjustment, I flatten out somewhat, using my head & arms to feel / work for the right position and finish from there.
 
His hand placement is very different from how the arm triangle is typically taught.
 
The essence of head-and-arm chokes is in bringing the neck and the shoulder together, what Renzo is doing is simply making sure the direction of his force is going through the right axis. If your force is going through points off-set from this axis, then you're wasting effort. You can use any method you like... as long as that method is putting force through the right axis.

Blocking the hip with your knee or foot creates a 'stop' or 'ratchet' that lets you crank up the force as you bow him, something that many fighters who are especially good with the arm triangle do. The other leg is used to drive in; Renzo does it on the knee most do it on their toes.
 
The essence of head-and-arm chokes is in bringing the neck and the shoulder together, what Renzo is doing is simply making sure the direction of his force is going through the right axis. If your force is going through points off-set from this axis, then you're wasting effort. You can use any method you like... as long as that method is putting force through the right axis.

Blocking the hip with your knee or foot creates a 'stop' or 'ratchet' that lets you crank up the force as you bow him, something that many fighters who are especially good with the arm triangle do. The other leg is used to drive in; Renzo does it on the knee most do it on their toes.

I personally like to place a knee on hip, and drive forward...
 
I personally like to place a knee on hip, and drive forward...


It's a good wrinkle i think.

Another thing i sometimes see people getting mistaken about is the idea that you need to keep the guy flat to do the choke.

What you do absolutely need is to pin the guy's far shoulder on the mat to make the choke easier; his near shoulder however, does not need to be on the ground, and indeed, it can actually be better if it's off.

If both of the guy's shoulders are flat on the mat, then the axis for smushing his neck and shoulder together is more or less sideways. This can still be done with the right methods (see how Ryan Hall or Braulio Estima often teach arm triangles, by almost literally turning sideways themselves to project their their chests into the opponent's shoulder), but it can be awkward and not immediately intuitive to new users. It can also sometimes result in trade-offs; if you use more of your force to keep the guy down, thats less force going in the direction of the choke; if you use more force going sideways into the choke, that's less force going down to keep them pinned.

On the other hand however, if the guy's near shoulder comes up, that changes the angle the right axis of force goes through relative to the ground; the nearer it goes up to an angle, the more the direction of force through the axis of the choke also goes down into the ground, increasing your ability to keep him pinned as well, allowing you to better synergize your forces.

Moreover, by changing your angle in this way, it also lets you engage more of your large muscle groups into the choke, where otherwise if they were flat, your leg drive might not be exerting as much force on the right axis, with some of the effort simply putting pressure on muscle or bone tissue rather than vitals (which is why many who teach the 'sideways' method of the choke teach you to sort of 'collapse' into it like deadweight, so you don't waste effort and just let the structure of the hold do the work).

You can see shades of this in how Renzo demonstrates in the video. A more explicit variation of this principle is shown here by Rob Khan.

 
It's a good wrinkle i think.

Another thing i sometimes see people getting mistaken about is the idea that you need to keep the guy flat to do the choke.

What you do absolutely need is to pin the guy's far shoulder on the mat to make the choke easier; his near shoulder however, does not need to be on the ground, and indeed, it can actually be better if it's off.

If both of the guy's shoulders are flat on the mat, then the axis for smushing his neck and shoulder together is more or less sideways. This can still be done with the right methods (see how Ryan Hall or Braulio Estima often teach arm triangles, by almost literally turning sideways themselves to project their their chests into the opponent's shoulder), but it can be awkward and not immediately intuitive to new users. It can also sometimes result in trade-offs; if you use more of your force to keep the guy down, thats less force going in the direction of the choke; if you use more force going sideways into the choke, that's less force going down to keep them pinned.

On the other hand however, if the guy's near shoulder comes up, that changes the angle the right axis of force goes through relative to the ground; the nearer it goes up to an angle, the more the direction of force through the axis of the choke also goes down into the ground, increasing your ability to keep him pinned as well, allowing you to better synergize your forces.

Moreover, by changing your angle in this way, it also lets you engage more of your large muscle groups into the choke, where otherwise if they were flat, your leg drive might not be exerting as much force on the right axis, with some of the effort simply putting pressure on muscle or bone tissue rather than vitals (which is why many who teach the 'sideways' method of the choke teach you to sort of 'collapse' into it like deadweight, so you don't waste effort and just let the structure of the hold do the work).

You can see shades of this in how Renzo demonstrates in the video. A more explicit variation of this principle is shown here by Rob Khan.



I will be honest, i suck at finishing when the near shoulder gets off the mat, specially because that normally happenes when the guy Hugs his own leg to defend the choke, but I will try what you said, that robs vid is great tx
 
If their shoulder comes up, it changes the axis through which you need to direct force, so if you just stay in the same position then they will be able to survive there (which is how the defense works). If you adjust for it though, make sure you're going through the right axis and bringing their neck and shoulder together, you can get them anyways.
 
It's a good wrinkle i think.

Another thing i sometimes see people getting mistaken about is the idea that you need to keep the guy flat to do the choke.

What you do absolutely need is to pin the guy's far shoulder on the mat to make the choke easier; his near shoulder however, does not need to be on the ground, and indeed, it can actually be better if it's off.

If both of the guy's shoulders are flat on the mat, then the axis for smushing his neck and shoulder together is more or less sideways. This can still be done with the right methods (see how Ryan Hall or Braulio Estima often teach arm triangles, by almost literally turning sideways themselves to project their their chests into the opponent's shoulder), but it can be awkward and not immediately intuitive to new users. It can also sometimes result in trade-offs; if you use more of your force to keep the guy down, thats less force going in the direction of the choke; if you use more force going sideways into the choke, that's less force going down to keep them pinned.

On the other hand however, if the guy's near shoulder comes up, that changes the angle the right axis of force goes through relative to the ground; the nearer it goes up to an angle, the more the direction of force through the axis of the choke also goes down into the ground, increasing your ability to keep him pinned as well, allowing you to better synergize your forces.

Moreover, by changing your angle in this way, it also lets you engage more of your large muscle groups into the choke, where otherwise if they were flat, your leg drive might not be exerting as much force on the right axis, with some of the effort simply putting pressure on muscle or bone tissue rather than vitals (which is why many who teach the 'sideways' method of the choke teach you to sort of 'collapse' into it like deadweight, so you don't waste effort and just let the structure of the hold do the work).

You can see shades of this in how Renzo demonstrates in the video. A more explicit variation of this principle is shown here by Rob Khan.



Great analysis. Recently I've been getting to this position off the pass, similar to Renzo's example when Maia turns away. I've lost a few chokes hesitating between flattening them out or switching to Ezekiel from the back. What I'm forgetting in focusing on one finish is that pressure thru the plane concept you explain.
 
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