Russia Collusion megathread v8: Royale w/cheese Grand Jury Edition (FBI raids Manafort)

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ShoelessRye

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Click on tweet to read 50 reply tweet storm spelling out exactly what Trump is facing now.

Bob Mueller Is Using a Grand Jury. Here’s What It Means.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ury-trump-russia-mueller-investigation-215458

A grand jury, which consists of 16 to 23 people, is an important tool that allows prosecutors to issue subpoenas that require people to produce documents and other evidence. Subpoenas can also be used to compel people to testify under oath before the grand jury. You can expect Mueller and his team to issue many subpoenas in the months ahead.

Because grand jury subpoenas are an important prosecutorial tool, typically a grand jury is impaneled at the very beginning of an investigation, not at the end. Indictments are usually sought at the very end of an investigation, after all of the witnesses are questioned and all of the documents are obtained. So despite all the punditry on cable news, there’s no suggestion here that Mueller is closing in on any particular target, such as the president. In all likelihood, he’s just getting started.

It is possible, though, that as a starting point Mueller will eventually seek an indictment of a lower-level figure in or around Trump’s campaign. Sometimes, when prosecutors are facing obstacles in obtaining evidence, they seek an indictment of one individual or a group of individuals prior to completing their investigation, if they believe that those individuals might cooperate with the government and provide evidence. Otherwise, decisions about who to charge are left to the very end of the investigation.
...
One quirk of grand juries could be significant. When a witness testifies under oath before the grand jury, no one else is permitted to be present other than the prosecutor and the grand jurors. The witness is not even allowed to have a lawyer present, and the normal rules of evidence that limit questioning in a trial do not apply. For that reason, when witnesses receive a grand jury subpoena, their lawyer often asks the prosecutor to agree to permit the witness to be interviewed by the prosecutor and an FBI agent with the lawyer present. The FBI agent’s presence would make it a crime to lie during the interview—creating the risk of Trump or one of his associates committing a crime through their words—but the lawyer would be present and could assist the witness.

That said, interviews are not typically transcribed, even though the FBI agent prepares a report memorializing the interview. For that reason, when it is important for a prosecutor to pin down a witness’s testimony, the prosecutor will insist that the witness testify under oath before the grand jury. For example, President Bill Clinton testified before a grand jury in the investigation by independent counsel Kenneth Starr—who later accused Clinton of providing “perjurious, false and misleading testimony,” leading to his impeachment by the Republican-led House of Representatives.
...
That said, Thursday’s news is not surprising. Mueller has already hired 16 prosecutors—some of the most accomplished investigators ever assembled on one team. These are people with deep skills and experience in prosecuting cases on money laundering, campaign finance violations and foreign bribery, as well as a sophisticated understanding of how to handle sprawling, complex investigations like this one. If any crimes were committed, they’re likely to find out.

The evidence in the public domain was already enough to warrant an investigation, which is why Mueller was appointed in the first place. Now, the existence of a grand jury confirms what many of us presumed, which is that Mueller is conducting a wide-ranging criminal investigation. What we don’t know is what, if anything, it will uncover.​

Renato Mariotti is a former federal prosecutor who handled many obstruction cases. He is now a partner at Thompson Coburn LLP.
 
Last edited:
xmrzEH5.gif
 
I lose track of the plethora of Trumpers on this forum. Is Shoeless Rye, in fact, a "Trump humper"?
 
This I did not know.

A federal grand jury is more commonly an investigate body whose existence helps prosecutors get documents and witnesses for their case.
Click to expand...
 
Cubo de Sangre said:
This I did not know.
Click to expand...
It's interesting. The witnesses testify without their lawyers even present, and there is no "defense" to cross examine the witnesses, though the jurors can ask the witness questions.
 
Ken Starr says no to "fishing expedition" -


Ken Starr who started out investigating Bill Clinton for Whitewater and ended up indicting him with a semen stain on a blue dress.
 
ShoelessRye said:
Ken Starr says no to "fishing expedition" -


Ken Starr who started out investigating Bill Clinton for Whitewater and ended up indicting him with a semen stain on a blue dress.
Click to expand...

That guy was always the hackiest of hacks. Whitewater was a total bullshit scandal.
 
ShoelessRye said:

Click on tweet to read 50 reply tweet storm spelling out exactly what Trump is facing now.

Bob Mueller Is Using a Grand Jury. Here’s What It Means.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ury-trump-russia-mueller-investigation-215458

A grand jury, which consists of 16 to 23 people, is an important tool that allows prosecutors to issue subpoenas that require people to produce documents and other evidence. Subpoenas can also be used to compel people to testify under oath before the grand jury. You can expect Mueller and his team to issue many subpoenas in the months ahead.

Because grand jury subpoenas are an important prosecutorial tool, typically a grand jury is impaneled at the very beginning of an investigation, not at the end. Indictments are usually sought at the very end of an investigation, after all of the witnesses are questioned and all of the documents are obtained. So despite all the punditry on cable news, there’s no suggestion here that Mueller is closing in on any particular target, such as the president. In all likelihood, he’s just getting started.

It is possible, though, that as a starting point Mueller will eventually seek an indictment of a lower-level figure in or around Trump’s campaign. Sometimes, when prosecutors are facing obstacles in obtaining evidence, they seek an indictment of one individual or a group of individuals prior to completing their investigation, if they believe that those individuals might cooperate with the government and provide evidence. Otherwise, decisions about who to charge are left to the very end of the investigation.
...
One quirk of grand juries could be significant. When a witness testifies under oath before the grand jury, no one else is permitted to be present other than the prosecutor and the grand jurors. The witness is not even allowed to have a lawyer present, and the normal rules of evidence that limit questioning in a trial do not apply. For that reason, when witnesses receive a grand jury subpoena, their lawyer often asks the prosecutor to agree to permit the witness to be interviewed by the prosecutor and an FBI agent with the lawyer present. The FBI agent’s presence would make it a crime to lie during the interview—creating the risk of Trump or one of his associates committing a crime through their words—but the lawyer would be present and could assist the witness.

That said, interviews are not typically transcribed, even though the FBI agent prepares a report memorializing the interview. For that reason, when it is important for a prosecutor to pin down a witness’s testimony, the prosecutor will insist that the witness testify under oath before the grand jury. For example, President Bill Clinton testified before a grand jury in the investigation by independent counsel Kenneth Starr—who later accused Clinton of providing “perjurious, false and misleading testimony,” leading to his impeachment by the Republican-led House of Representatives.
...
That said, Thursday’s news is not surprising. Mueller has already hired 16 prosecutors—some of the most accomplished investigators ever assembled on one team. These are people with deep skills and experience in prosecuting cases on money laundering, campaign finance violations and foreign bribery, as well as a sophisticated understanding of how to handle sprawling, complex investigations like this one. If any crimes were committed, they’re likely to find out.

The evidence in the public domain was already enough to warrant an investigation, which is why Mueller was appointed in the first place. Now, the existence of a grand jury confirms what many of us presumed, which is that Mueller is conducting a wide-ranging criminal investigation. What we don’t know is what, if anything, it will uncover.​

Renato Mariotti is a former federal prosecutor who handled many obstruction cases. He is now a partner at Thompson Coburn LLP.
Click to expand...

Turns out the Trumpers strategy of saying nothingburger all day and pretending the evidence of the trump campaign's collusion didn't exist blew up in their faces after a few weeks. Who saw that coming? Derp!
<TheWire1>
 
@oleDirtyBast4rd last thread was shut down before I could reply.

"I don't see this Grand Jury as that ominous a sign for team Trump unless there is something from his past that is out of the ordinary."

This was the context of me bringing up due process. I was saying because of due process you can't just go digging through the past aimlessly.
Click to expand...

I owe you an apology, I jumped on you for no reason. The guy you were referring to rankled me, too, because he doesn't know anything about a grand jury.

In addition to a grand jury being an investigative tool (whose power, when invoked, exceeds what Mueller and the senate are capable of without it) and the fact that about 98% of grand juries end in charges being laid, something I read that really interests me is when Mueller told the Trump team to keep all their emails relating to the Russian collusion meeting. I read an opinion by a former high-ranking prosecutor that, in his eyes, Mueller was setting a trap for Trump: Mueller doesn't have the power to compel them to turn over those emails at this point, but (since he told them to keep all communications relating to the meeting) if Trump and co. delete any of those emails then Mueller can hit them with obstruction.
 
I'm not really a gif guy. Don't think I've ever posted one here. But I do like this, so.
giphy.gif



giphy.gif



giphy.gif



giphy.gif
 


Seth Abramson @SethAbramson

(26) There's consensus Mueller has "prima facie" felonies (cases he, on their face, could win at trial) against Kushner, Manafort and Trump.

Consensus amoung whom?
 
JosephDredd said:
@oleDirtyBast4rd last thread was shut down before I could reply.



I owe you an apology, I jumped on you for no reason. The guy you were referring to rankled me, too, because he doesn't know anything about a grand jury.

In addition to a grand jury being an investigative tool (whose power, when invoked, exceeds what Mueller and the senate are capable of without it) and the fact that about 98% of grand juries end in charges being laid, something I read that really interests me is when Mueller told the Trump team to keep all their emails relating to the Russian collusion meeting. I read an opinion by a former high-ranking prosecutor that, in his eyes, Mueller was setting a trap for Trump: Mueller doesn't have the power to compel them to turn over those emails at this point, but (since he told them to keep all communications relating to the meeting) if Trump and co. delete any of those emails then Mueller can hit them with obstruction.
Click to expand...

It's all good, I knew it was a communication issue. The grand jury development here intrigues me. Without more info that's about all I have to say on that lol
 
Can't wait for Russia Collusion Megathread v10 - Nuremburger Edition
 
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