Sam McVey thoughts?

[DeJulez]

ok, thanks, i probably read sometime in the past but i read so much that i sometimes forget what i read. I'll check it out.

I wouldn't put much trust in those, and that article even says that.

 

[mozfonky]

I wouldn't put much trust in those, and that article even says that.

ya, sounded kinda biased. i'd love for boxers to have beaten grapplers but it's just too easy for a grappler to turn a fight into their fight. the one thing boxers have is that they are trained to never quit, jiu jitsu guys, no matter how good they are are trained to quit and have done it thousands of times. If you could get a boxer to learn just enough to defend himself, to maybe escape and put the fight back on the feet, they'd be fine. Maurice Smith told me he only had about 3 months of grappling when he started taking on the grapplers and he said it wasn't really enough but it was enough for him to have a brief, brilliant stretch in the sport.

 

[SOAzmayesh]

Timothy was better...

 

[Cross_Trainer]

Not when it was actual boxers.
Usually it was US Servicemen that the Jiujitsu guys would fight. So its really not boxers they were fighting, but military men who were learning boxing.

That may be. I know a lot of them were boxers to the same extent that the Japanese servicemen, seamen, locals, etc. they often competed against were jiujitsu guys. The Navy at least had boxing instructors during that time.

There are a couple better articles than the one I posted about the quasi-sport that I remember reading in college, but unfortunately I haven't found any copies online. I think EJMAS had a couple of them, and there was a short discussion of Merikan contests in "Martial Arts in the Modern World." I seem to remember an article devoted completely to Merikan contests, but can't locate the darn thing.

Thanks again for posting those sources. Very cool stuff.

 

[Cross_Trainer]

At the signal to commence the first round Stevenson threw a somersault across the ring and landed prone. He grasped McVea's ankle... McVea looked as though he could have banged away at any portion of Stevenson's anatomy, but close watchers could observe McVea's ankle gradually being twisted round. Not only could he not hit his opponent, but found It impossible even to stand up. He fell eventually and Stevenson worked his hold right up the body, grabbed the right arm, and McVea tapped.
Stevenson had taken the first round in less than 2 minutes. The next few rounds would follow a similar pattern: Stevenson would work to drag McVea to the ground where he would then gain the submission around the 2 minute mark. In the second round, Stevenson tripped McVea to the ground where they rolled around before "Stevenson got the neck hold and seemed to be in a position in which he could have throttled McVea. McVea tapped once more." In the third, Stevenson fell back and dragged McVea down with him where he secured a "severe arm hold" and "Eventually McVea gave way once more". In the fourth, "Stevenson dropped to the ground and lay there, inviting an attack. McVea lunged at him, and Stevenson grabbed his arm and ragged his opponent down" where he secured a scissors hold on McVea's head, forcing him to surrender yet again.
Now down four rounds to none and on the brink of losing the match, many spectators began to question if McVea was giving it his all. It was obvious that the Professor was doing almost all the hard work: where he was perspiring heavily and breathing hard, McVea looked about as fresh as he did when the match began.The boxer had managed some offense, landing some lefts and uppercuts in rounds two and three, and ramming some hard blows to Stevenson's midsection when trapped in the scissors hold in the fourth, but nothing too meaningful or threatening.

During the bout the work of neither man was received very well. The sporadic applause was always downed by cries of dissatisfaction. However, It appeared to some that McVea missed many occasions when he could easily have despatched his opponent

Some, perhaps more astute, witnesses were more forgiving of McVea's seemingly poor showing.

McVea, however, was justified in being cautious,however,as to be caught off his guard for a second meant defeat against so skillful an exponent of jiu-jitsu.

Whatever criticisms there were of McVea were disregarded in the "sensational" fifth round.

Stevenson easily got hold of McVea's neck. The latter, however, seemed to be prepared for this. He straightened up and swung Stevenson off his feet, and whilst he clung there McVea drove solid blows to tbe stomach They were very sold blows, and they eventually drove Stevenson off. Then M'Vea got to work in earnest, and at long range attacked Stevenson's head. He sent in heavy lefts to the jaw. Three times in succession he sent Stevenson to the boards for four seconds, four seconds, and eight seconds. Stevenson got up very groggy, and McVea went In to finish him. Stevenson, however, dragged his man In agaln, and both fell on the floor. McVea continued to send In solid punches to the body and face. Stevenson turned over, and McVea Immediately drove In three powerful blows to the back of the neck and Stevenson was out.

Stevenson's corner, unable to revive him in time for the next round, decided to throw in the towel. This was met by hooting from the crowd, mostly from Stevenson supporters upset that he was about to be declared the loser even though he was up four rounds to one.

Afterwards, McVea explained his strategy (Stevenson was reported to have not been in any condition to speak to the press): being familiar with jiu-jitsu, he had intentionally been overly cautious, wanting to force the smaller Stevenson to tire himself out while not risking injury himself. Eventually in the fifth round an opening appeared and he took full advantage of it, proving that his strategy had been sound.

Sam McVea never again faced a ju-jitsu exponent, instead focusing the rest of his days on boxing. He ended his Hall of Fame career with a record of 65-16-12 in the sport.

And 2-0 in "all-in".

As I said above, awesome read, and thanks again.

The rules look like they give the striker an advantage -- Stevenson couldn't hold a choke or crank an armbar to incapacitate McVea, but McVea could hammer Stevenson until he couldn't continue.

That aside, I suppose McVea would have approached the bout differently if he knew that a submission would end it in Stevenson's favor.

 

[DeJulez]

As I said above, awesome read, and thanks again.

The rules look like they give the striker an advantage -- Stevenson couldn't hold a choke or crank an armbar to incapacitate McVea, but McVea could hammer Stevenson until he couldn't continue.

That aside, I suppose McVea would have approached the bout differently if he knew that a submission would end it in Stevenson's favor.

Well in both matches, and most matches back then the boxer had to wear gloves.
In most of these cases as in McVey-Stevenson, they went by rounds.
So as the newspapers said, McVey could've unleashed at any moment on Stevenson but was content letting Stevenson overwork for the submission knowing that he had 10 rounds to wail on him, which McVey said was his strategy.
So Stevensons working his ass off for 2mins each round trying to submit him, McVey knows if he gets in trouble he can tap and move to the next round.
In the 5th rd this happens
Stevenson easily got hold of McVea's neck. The latter, however, seemed to be prepared for this. He straightened up and swung Stevenson off his feet, and whilst he clung there McVea drove solid blows to tbe stomach They were very sold blows, and they eventually drove Stevenson off. Then M'Vea got to work in earnest, and at long range attacked Stevenson's head. He sent in heavy lefts to the jaw. Three times in succession he sent Stevenson to the boards for four seconds, four seconds, and eight seconds. Stevenson got up very groggy, and McVea went In to finish him. Stevenson, however, dragged his man In agaln, and both fell on the floor. McVea continued to send In solid punches to the body and face. Stevenson turned over, and McVea Immediately drove In three powerful blows to the back of the neck and Stevenson was out.

Stevenson lost that round but was completely out and couldn't continue the fight.
Strategy.

 

[DeJulez]

ya, sounded kinda biased. i'd love for boxers to have beaten grapplers but it's just too easy for a grappler to turn a fight into their fight. the one thing boxers have is that they are trained to never quit, jiu jitsu guys, no matter how good they are are trained to quit and have done it thousands of times. If you could get a boxer to learn just enough to defend himself, to maybe escape and put the fight back on the feet, they'd be fine. Maurice Smith told me he only had about 3 months of grappling when he started taking on the grapplers and he said it wasn't really enough but it was enough for him to have a brief, brilliant stretch in the sport.

They have records of some of them and the boxers won a good amount.
Asian arts tend to want to superior than the western arts, and typical with the East, they outright lie.
Ill find the records, but Jiu Jitsu lost to boxing and another art. A lot. Maybe it was Savarte ( cant remember what it was called) or something, but it was recorded.

 

[DeJulez]

@mozfonky
Who was the guy Bruce Lee fought that was a high ranking guy that claims he won the fight, but Bruce said he won.

Thats what i mean by typical Eastern mythical nonsense. Its hard to figure out what really happen when they all claim something different.

EDIT: Was it Wong Jack Man?

 

[mozfonky]

@mozfonky
Who was the guy Bruce Lee fought that was a high ranking guy that claims he won the fight, but Bruce said he won.

Thats what i mean by typical Eastern mythical nonsense. Its hard to figure out what really happen when they all claim something different.

EDIT: Was it Wong Jack Man?

ya, it was but it wasn't really an accomplishment to be honest, it sounded like a farce in my personal opinion. the good that came out of it was that bruce became more committed to conditioning and he changed his art because so much of wing chun is basically useless, worse than useless. it's almost possible to say that bruce wasn't a real fighter until after that debacle and the opponent was lame, he ran, he didn't want to fight, but he wasn't beaten that badly. the other fight that bruce had recorded in the us was against a karateman here in seattle, he kayoed the guy in 11 seconds. then.., you hear of the multiple stories of fights he had on the streets when no one was around. Bruce was a genius and a pioneer and he worked with what he had around him. there are a million stories, 99 percent really have not real unbiased witnesses or real proof of ever having happened. that fuck gene labelle claims to have thrown bruce around on the set of the green hornet, but., those stories did not come out until the late 80's. it's not that it couldn't have happened but if it did what context was it? was it a serious fight? or was it just a thing where they were kidding around. then, there are the stories that bruce beat all the top guys of his day but no one wants to give details to shame the norris', lewis' etc.., something must have happened because they always, always held a grudge against bruce.

 

[Contra-dictator]

Although there isn't much footage of him, on appearance alone I can tell he beat the ever living fuck out of a lot of other people

I've seen him described a the Mike Tyson of the day.