Law SC rules 7-2 in favor of Bakery

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Do you agree with the ruling?


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Police are denied service from eateries more and more frequently, I don't see the country having a crisis over that. Trump admin officials are being harassed and driven from them, as well. And let me just preemptively state that whether or not it is because of a way a person is born or the profession they choose is irrelevant; either discrimination is ok for all or it isn't for anybody.
That's not true though, as a society we have decided that certain kinds of discrimination are okay, or at least legal, and certain kinds aren't. I can legally discriminate against Red Sox fans or people who don't wear shirts or shoes or cops even but I can't discriminate against Jews or blacks.

Sexual orientation is not a federally protected class like race and religion are but it is in Colorado which is why this case went to court in the first place. If it was protected in Colorado the gay couple would not have a leg to stand on.
 
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You are holding an opinion that, if not agreed with, dismisses the person who holds it as a conspiracy theorist.

You're the one who keeps saying conspiracy theorist. I said in the thread, I think you genuinely believe Breitbart or whoever is telling you that the MSM is biased against you. I get it, which is why I introduced points that I think would lead you away from that view if you considered them. But your view is that it is illegitimate to even question the GOP narrative, no?

The victim hood you claim is predicated upon this notion that I attacked you for no reason.

No, I understand the reason. You deeply cherish the "liberal media" myth, and questioning it feels like an attack on your sense of self so you respond with ugly personal attacks.

It is possible for someone to disagree with me without being partisan.

On the issue of whether the MSM for some reason has a liberal bias?
 
I believe in the right to discriminate against people like you, certainly I'd never want to bake a cake for a disgusting person such as yourself.

I think you have that right. He can probably easily find someone that would be happy to bake that cake.
 
You're the one who keeps saying conspiracy theorist. I said in the thread, I think you genuinely believe Breitbart or whoever is telling you that the MSM is biased against you. I get it, which is why I introduced points that I think would lead you away from that view if you considered them. But your view is that it is illegitimate to even question the GOP narrative, no?



No, I understand the reason. You deeply cherish the "liberal media" myth, and questioning it feels like an attack on your sense of self so you respond with ugly personal attacks.



On the issue of whether the MSM for some reason has a liberal bias?
You were the first to say CT, I don’t consume Breitbart news, and I don’t blindly accept the GOP narrative, as evidenced by the fact that 2016 was the first time that I voted for Republicans and I don’t hold classically conservative views. But your argument is just so weak that you feel the need to reduce me to a caricature of myself so that you have something to attack.

Sweet armchair psychology. Man, you really love the straw man thing, don’t you?

Yes. Your argument is just disgustingly weak. I honestly don’t think you’re as smart as you think you are.
 
I recognize that you're only interested in being a low frequency troll, but this objection is made by much smarter idiots than you so I'll say again:

The actual drawing of the image of Muhammed is the widely-held sin, whereas decorating cakes with the names of gay people is not. They are vastly different. An equivalent to making a Muslim decorate a cake with Muhammed's face would be something like making a Christian write out an offensive spoof of the ten commandments (which isn't nearly as bad, but I'll credit the Christian side of the argument), which nobody in their right mind would agree is appropriate.
This gets at something really interesting, and perhaps this is where the line is drawn. Drawing the picture of Mohammed is a sin in the Muslim faith, so to make a cake with his face on it is to commit the sin yourself (assuming that you are a devout Muslim baker, of course). This is definitely a violation of the First Amendment for the government to compel you to do this, and that definitely makes sense.

For the devout Christian baker who views gay marriage as something that runs contrary to his faith, the issue certainly becomes cloudier. For this baker, he has to argue that making the cake makes him complicit in or enables a sin that violates his faith. Committing the act and enabling the act are obviously different things, so arguing them as the same thing is a flawed premise. Of course, this doesn't answer the question of where the line should be drawn by the government. Is enabling the sin a violation of the First Amendment, or is only committing the act itself something that you are protected from? I think reasonable people can disagree on that answer. Personally, even though I disagree with the baker in the CO case (I think he should have just made the damn cake instead of draw a hard line in the sand, which resulted in going out of business), I think that such a baker should be protected from enabling the act, but that's probably what you might expect from someone with more libertarian beliefs. I certainly understand if you draw the line in a different place in accordance with your own judgment and system of beliefs. Where I break ranks with most of the other folks in this thread arguing on behalf of the baker is their reasoning behind it. I think many are arguing that committing and enabling an act are the same thing, and as I've laid out, that is a fundamentally flawed argument.
 
You were the first to say CT, I don’t consume Breitbart news, and I don’t blindly accept the GOP narrative, as evidenced by the fact that 2016 was the first time that I voted for Republicans and I don’t hold classically conservative views.

Yes, you're a right-wing libertarian (who defends while spinning away from right-wing cultural arguments), and you strongly believe that the MSM deliberately spins news to try to help Democrats. That's a conspiracy theory.

But your argument is just so weak that you feel the need to reduce me to a caricature of myself so that you have something to attack.

My argument is so "weak" that you've never addressed it at all except to personally me. I think both of us knows who has the weak argument here, friend.

Sweet armchair psychology. Man, you really love the straw man thing, don’t you?

Yes. Your argument is just disgustingly weak. I honestly don’t think you’re as smart as you think you are.

I don't think you know what a "strawman" is. It's when you attack a weaker form of a person's argument. And, again, if my argument is weak at all, one would think you'd just easily show what's wrong with it (as I did when I address your graph). Instead, you just get mad and refuse to confront the argument at all. I think it's clear that the reason is that you're not prepared to simply admit that you're wrong, but you can't actually see anything wrong with the argument.
 
Yes, you're a right-wing libertarian (who defends while spinning away from right-wing cultural arguments), and you strongly believe that the MSM deliberately spins news to try to help Democrats. That's a conspiracy theory.



My argument is so "weak" that you've never addressed it at all except to personally me. I think both of us knows who has the weak argument here, friend.



I don't think you know what a "strawman" is. It's when you attack a weaker form of a person's argument. And, again, if my argument is weak at all, one would think you'd just easily show what's wrong with it (as I did when I address your graph). Instead, you just get mad and refuse to confront the argument at all. I think it's clear that the reason is that you're not prepared to simply admit that you're wrong, but you can't actually see anything wrong with the argument.
I accuse of the media of being mostly Democrats/liberals (fact). I also accuse those same people of selecting and presenting stories that support their personally-held political beliefs. This comes in many forms. I think much of it is actually unconscious bias, much in the same way that people use this message board. You'll see certain posters of both political persuasions say, "This is the sort of behavior I would condemn if it were it from my side, but it's not. This thread is about people from your side, so I'm criticizing it here too." And then when a thread comes up about their side, they are noticeably absent. In that same manner, some stories are brought up and are given big segments because they make Republicans look dumb, but when it comes to something that they find mildly embarrassing about their team (take every example of Vice President Biden putting his foot in his mouth, for example), then the media is quiet because "it's not a story."

I've addressed it again and again. You really don't care about what I have to say though. What you care about is being right and making sure that everyone else thinks you're right. It's really obvious what you're doing. It's why you can't let this go. You've been following me around on this forum for days now, continuing this because you're fuming mad. I can practically see you now.
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Which is exactly what you're doing. You're attempting to make me into a caricature of myself by making me seem like some loon. And I addressed your points. Again, you don't listen because you're really not interested in what other people have to say. You're interested in what you have to say and making sure that everyone else hears you. You're a very nasty person, and that's why I really am not interested in talking to you. Why would I want that kind of adolescent smugness in my life? Take care, and best of luck to you. I hope you find peace one day. Bye.
 
I've addressed it again and again.

You have never addressed it. Specifically looking at CNN, you asserted that they were deliberately trying to help Clinton win. I pointed out that if that were so, they would not have made the choices they made--for example, airing live, unedited footage of Trump campaign rallies, replacing their right-wing commentators who weren't pro-Trump with ones who were, and covering the relatively minor email issue more than all policy issues or Trump scandals combined. You wouldn't see, for example, Fox making the opposite choices there (replacing anti-Clinton left-leaning pundits with pro-Clinton ones, airing Clinton rallies, etc.). It's fatal to your argument. I could also point out that the same study that showed that Trump has gotten sharply negative coverage from the MSM also noted that Republican voices accounted for 80% of newsmaker commentary in the MSM about Trump, compared to 6% for Democratic voices.

Which is exactly what you're doing. You're attempting to make me into a caricature of myself by making me seem like some loon. And I addressed your points.

You have never addressed the points except with whining and personal attacks. Anyone can see this.
 
This gets at something really interesting, and perhaps this is where the line is drawn. Drawing the picture of Mohammed is a sin in the Muslim faith, so to make a cake with his face on it is to commit the sin yourself (assuming that you are a devout Muslim baker, of course). This is definitely a violation of the First Amendment for the government to compel you to do this, and that definitely makes sense.

For the devout Christian baker who views gay marriage as something that runs contrary to his faith, the issue certainly becomes cloudier. For this baker, he has to argue that making the cake makes him complicit in or enables a sin that violates his faith. Committing the act and enabling the act are obviously different things, so arguing them as the same thing is a flawed premise. Of course, this doesn't answer the question of where the line should be drawn by the government. Is enabling the sin a violation of the First Amendment, or is only committing the act itself something that you are protected from? I think reasonable people can disagree on that answer. Personally, even though I disagree with the baker in the CO case (I think he should have just made the damn cake instead of draw a hard line in the sand, which resulted in going out of business), I think that such a baker should be protected from enabling the act, but that's probably what you might expect from someone with more libertarian beliefs. I certainly understand if you draw the line in a different place in accordance with your own judgment and system of beliefs. Where I break ranks with most of the other folks in this thread arguing on behalf of the baker is their reasoning behind it. I think many are arguing that committing and enabling an act are the same thing, and as I've laid out, that is a fundamentally flawed argument.

I like the way you break this down, and I agree that this may be the best measure in this type of case: are you refusing an act because you think it causes you yourself to sin or are you refusing an act because you disapprove of what others are doing. There might be some sort of analogy to a pacifist who serves as a medic in a war. To fight and kill is a sin to that person, and they ought not to be forced to do so. But that doesn't mean they can always refuse to have any participation in military duty.

I think the baker case is on the border here, especially since he didn't let his disapproval of their wedding stop him from offering to sell a stock cake from the shelf, but did not want to participate in the wedding by working creatively on a custom cake. I'm skeptical that cake decoration is artistry, but to the extent it is an expressive act, it is hard to compel.
 
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I like the way you break this down, and I agree that this may be the best measure in this type of case: are your refusing an act because you think it causes you yourself to sin or are your refusing an act because you disapprove of what others are doing. There might be some sort of analogy to a pacifist who serves as a medic in a war. To fight and kill is a sin to that person, and they ought to be forced to do so. But that doesn't mean they can refuse to have any participation in social duty.

I think the baker case is on the border here, especially since he didn't let his disapproval of their wedding stop him from offering to sell a stock cake from the shelf, but did not want to participate in the wedding by working creatively on a custom cake. I'm skeptical that cake decoration is artistry, but to the extent it is an expressive act, it is hard to compel.
You bring up a really good point about what constitutes expression. Is making a cake really an act of free expression? You're reaching out to the cynic in me, haha. What about a Google employee that didn't want to work on a software application for a DOD contract? Could that person argue that their computer code is free expression and have legitimate grounds to be moved to a different project that aligns with their political beliefs? Where does free expression start and "not doing something just because you don't want to" start?
 
You bring up a really good point about what constitutes expression. Is making a cake really an act of free expression? You're reaching out to the cynic in me, haha. What about a Google employee that didn't want to work on a software application for a DOD contract? Could that person argue that their computer code is free expression and have legitimate grounds to be moved to a different project that aligns with their political beliefs? Where does free expression start and "not doing something just because you don't want to" start?

Exactly.

But at the same time, the baker himself seems to been trying to work on a similar basis to what you are describing, which is why he refused some services but offered others to the couple. It wasn't a blanket refusal. The guy was trying to figure out how to avoid what felt to him like active participation. I'm not sure I agree with the the battle he chose, but I appreciate the attempt.
 
Exactly.

But at the same time, the baker himself seems to been trying to work on a similar basis to what you are describing, which is why he refused some services but offered others to the couple. It wasn't a blanket refusal. The guy was trying to figure out how to avoid what felt to him like active participation. I'm not sure I agree with the the battle he chose, but I appreciate the attempt.
Agreed that he should have just made the cake. This was a bad fight to wage, and he paid for it with his business. I don't feel terribly sympathetic for him as a result, given that the free market worked out. Like what I was saying to Fawlty, it's a question of where one might draw the line in whether you're compelled to act in a manner that you disagree with versus whether you're compelled to enable an act that you disagree with.
 
Agreed that he should have just made the cake. This was a bad fight to wage

We don't agree. Though I expressed skepticism, I'm undecided as yet. It does factor in to my perception that the gay couple was shopping around for just this type of trouble. They were looking for a fight and went out of their way to find a baker who would fight them. Splitting hairs over where the baker chose to make his stand shouldn't ignore this.
 
If specifics don't matter. (they do)

Then why set a tone, to drill down fine points(specifics)?


JMO But getting a told to f-off by a uninterested girl at the bar is much different that getting a drink tossed in your face. Especially in the legal realm. I just think it's a bad example, that's all.


The WR seems to really beat dead horses on the most simplest of issues. That point is alluded to a number of times in this thread and every other time this happens, which is often.

<{hughesimpress}>
< At just the massive amount of time and energy I would say is squandered on petty crap.

The specifics of the example don't matter, the tone of the example does. The specific example could be a girl tossing a drink on someone, a boss insulting his employee in front of other staff, etc. What matters is that the example sets up a scenario where the behavior is insulting, involves some element of public shaming but doesn't rise to the level where people would feel that criminal law enforcement is required.

As for beating dead horses and squandered time....sure, that's probably true. But then it seems kind of backwards to draft a post about the assessment of an example that someone uses when making a point to someone who is not you, spend the time including a gif, and taking the effort to adjust the font color.

Seems like you could have avoided squandering your time by not replying to a post that wasn't even directed at something you had said.

<seedat>
 
We don't agree. Though I expressed skepticism, I'm undecided as yet. It does factor in to my perception that the gay couple was shopping around for just this type of trouble. They were looking for a fight and went out of their way to find a baker who would fight them. Splitting hairs over where the baker chose to make his stand shouldn't ignore this.
Hmm, I'm not sure that the couple was looking for the fight. They might have been, but they just as easily could have been offended. It's worth noting that this case predates the nation-wide legalization of same-sex marriage by a few years, so the idea that they would jump into such a fray on such poor footing seems less likely in my view. I get looking for a fight when you're on the precipice of changing things because you want to push the issue, but I don't see why you would look for a fight that you're going to be crushed in. When this incident occurred, they had no real footing to stand on.
 
This gets at something really interesting, and perhaps this is where the line is drawn. Drawing the picture of Mohammed is a sin in the Muslim faith, so to make a cake with his face on it is to commit the sin yourself (assuming that you are a devout Muslim baker, of course). This is definitely a violation of the First Amendment for the government to compel you to do this, and that definitely makes sense.

For the devout Christian baker who views gay marriage as something that runs contrary to his faith, the issue certainly becomes cloudier. For this baker, he has to argue that making the cake makes him complicit in or enables a sin that violates his faith. Committing the act and enabling the act are obviously different things, so arguing them as the same thing is a flawed premise. Of course, this doesn't answer the question of where the line should be drawn by the government. Is enabling the sin a violation of the First Amendment, or is only committing the act itself something that you are protected from? I think reasonable people can disagree on that answer. Personally, even though I disagree with the baker in the CO case (I think he should have just made the damn cake instead of draw a hard line in the sand, which resulted in going out of business), I think that such a baker should be protected from enabling the act, but that's probably what you might expect from someone with more libertarian beliefs. I certainly understand if you draw the line in a different place in accordance with your own judgment and system of beliefs. Where I break ranks with most of the other folks in this thread arguing on behalf of the baker is their reasoning behind it. I think many are arguing that committing and enabling an act are the same thing, and as I've laid out, that is a fundamentally flawed argument.
The question about where to draw the line is different federally vs. at the state level too. According to what I've heard and interpreted (yeah this whole post gets the ol' IANAL disclaimer), the question about what is a "real" sin is not a very important question at the federal level, and the enabling question isn't very important either, since personal religious beliefs are protected so long as they aren't just ad hoc nonsense. In this case, while we "know" that the baker's objection is crap, it's not entirely without reason. So the court seems obligated to accept it as a real reason (part of why they ruled against Colorado is that they were cynical about the baker's intentions). The only thing that can trump that would be discrimination against a protected class, like race. But since sexual orientation isn't protected federally, the religious belief wins.

In Colorado, the sexual orientation and the religious belief hold the same weight, so it's an easier question for the state. The only balancing act they have to do is to weigh the discrimination in public accommodation against the religious objection, which in this case is a trivial thing to determine. That's where I think the "real" sin comes into play- it matters if it's really a sin, or just something the baker doesn't want to do. They just have to ensure that they are actually considering the religious objection fairly, and not being religiously discriminatory themselves, at which they failed big time.

Given all of that, the Supreme Court can then weigh out the rights of the state vs the first amendment. Even if the court might weigh things differently on the discrimination itself, the court has to consider allowing the state law to stand, because it's okay for states to offer more protection than the federal government- it's not unconstitutional to protect sexual orientation. The state should win on that point. And the last thing to consider, which is where a lot of the media and expert speculation was located, is whether making the cake is a religious expression. I think most reasonable people agree that's pushing religious expression too far, because now we're talking about basically denying any gay person any custom service in any public shop if it the customization even hints at the idea that gayness exists.

The idea about enabling and committing acts being equivalent is some hellaciously tricky and destructive dogma. It has its roots in sexual and material coveting. Our natural emotions are considered sinful in and of themselves, such that many mind-chained followers are truly convinced that they are sinful for their jealousy or their desire. Ironically, that is a deeply held and sincere religious belief. Oh, religion, you card!
 
The specifics of the example don't matter, the tone of the example does. The specific example could be a girl tossing a drink on someone, a boss insulting his employee in front of other staff, etc. What matters is that the example sets up a scenario where the behavior is insulting, involves some element of public shaming but doesn't rise to the level where people would feel that criminal law enforcement is required.

My point here is I think the examples you are giving kinda contradict each other. You're example's can set up two very different scenario's. I've seen what happens a number of times when drink tossing will get you in trouble with the cops. You're in cuffs if they see you do that to another person (seen that 1st hand). Seen fights break out instantly or minutes later after stewing on it while they're soaking in said tossed beverage. It's almost always women starting it, a drunk angry chick will stab a dude. Seen that happened twice; Once where a girl tosses a drink in a guys face he laughs her off, she's nuclear and stabs the guy. I shit you not this girl gets her knife from her bra runs out the front of the bar and pulls a jumping superman punch to the back of the head. She didn't fully lock out the blade and when the tip stuck into this guy's skull she almost cut off one of her fingers when the blade closed on them. Since it's sherdog I'll mention this was DT San Jose, Cain and my friend Big Ant got to see it while across the street working security. I worked as a bartender for a number of years here we all have a few good stories.

When someone say's something that offends another person intentionally or obliviously even a heated spat will more often than not, not end up escalating to some type of physically violent outcome. Toss a drink in a face? Heck flip a coin.

This was all what I was trying to say to ya.


As for beating dead horses and squandered time....sure, that's probably true. But then it seems kind of backwards to draft a post about the assessment of an example that someone uses when making a point to someone who is not you, spend the time including a gif, and taking the effort to adjust the font color.


Seems like you could have avoided squandering your time by not replying to a post that wasn't even directed at something you had said.

<seedat>

Bro relax...This wasn't directed at you. I should have separated that comment. I think you'd agree that everyone across this forum are replying to posts that weren't even directed at something they had said. You know the "Disapproving Matt" gif is provided by sherdog and the bold, font and color is a scripted macro key that pops in the text box automatically. That's a couple seconds when you know I'm talking about people who will go back and forth for a week trying to rile, better and beat each other on the most petty of things. That's the level of time and energy I'm referencing to. Those chats are always littered with broad brushes, ignorance and insults. It takes away from the great posts and discussion that does occur while generating a pile of negative energy. I feel safe saying I haven't wasted much time here given how infrequently I've posted over the last ten years.

I don't think I've even seen you emulate this so again I'll say it wasn't directed at you.



I take your <seedat>...


and offer you the "two fingers to the temple guy"
<FutbolThink> as we talk about the same thing we're doing right now in the damn supreme court baker thread.

lol Take care man.
 
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