School shootings

[Leagon]

Cause that's a ridiculous place to go... Frankly the concept of shooting up the school never even entered my mind.

It was more me coming home with a bloody nose bitching to my dad about it, my born in 1938 one tour of Vietnam with Marine Raiders and the Frogmen dad that was like "you come home like that again I'll give you a REAL bloody nose and a reason to bitch".

There's a pretty big problem in schools in general of administrations not believing victims of bullying.

That's a valid argument. You got bullied, but you had someone to talk to who contextualized it, if crudely.

So would it be fair to say that, if other kids had someone to talk to when they got home who let them know that bullying isn't a big deal, this could help bullied kids to not shoot up schools? If not, why not?

I hope I'm making sense. We've veered very far from the more guns/no guns discussion that our country is having. Imo, this line of reasoning is far better at identifying problems and finding solutions.

 

[Gregolian]

That's a valid argument. You got bullied, but you had someone to talk to who contextualized it, if crudely.

So would it be fair to say that, if other kids had someone to talk to when they got home who let them know that bullying isn't a big deal, this could help bullied kids to not shoot up schools? If not, why not?

I hope I'm making sense. We've veered very far from the more guns/no guns discussion that our country is having. Imo, this line of reasoning is far better at identifying problems and finding solutions.

I think it has to start at the schools. There are kids that will never have someone at home to talk to. It'd be great if they did but the reality of the situation is a lot of kids won't due to anything from absentee parents, drugged out parents (like the boxer kid from The Wire), or parents so busy trying to make ends meet they sadly don't have the chance to talk to their kids more than "here's your dinner".

I remember bringing it up with my school administrators and they didn't believe me. It was literally them going "their parents said their child wouldn't possibly ever do that so it obviously didn't happen."

Well, it fucking did, I put the kid in the hospital with a couple missing teeth and a cracked rib or two and the school tried to suspend me. Mom and dad fought it, suspension went away and I still cut those three days to go fishing with my dad.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Of course we need cops. Every society of significant size needs third party law enforcement. Unless you know of an exception?

Why would we stamp out mental illness? Every country has mental illness. America has always had mental illness.

Question: How do you feel about acid attacks? Are they just a part of human nature? Do you never wonder why some cultures have acid attacks and others don't? Should those cultures ban acid? Or address mental illness?

Sounds like we're in agreement that sick and violent people currently exist in large numbers and will likely continue to do so. Fretting over a particular type of instance where these things manifest is, as I said, myopic.

I've wondered plenty about cultural traits. You kinda gotta in order to get a Sociology degree. What those classes taught me were that not only is it difficult/impossible to understand all the behaviors of an individual, it's exponentially more complicated when trying to explain behaviors en masse. Personally here though I'd focus on what kind of shitty environment schools can be, parental neglect, and the glamorization of violence in entertainment. Not sure how much a desire for notoriety plays in, but mass killers get lots of articles and books written about them so there's that too. As for acid attacks in other places, I don't really know shit 'em other than they happen.

 

[Leagon]

Sounds like we're in agreement that sick and violent people currently exist in large numbers and will likely continue to do so. Fretting over a particular type of instance where these things manifest is, as I said, myopic.

I've wondered plenty about cultural traits. You kinda gotta in order to get a Sociology degree. What those classes taught me were that not only is it difficult/impossible to understand all the behaviors of an individual, it's exponentially more complicated when trying to explain behaviors en masse. Personally here though I'd focus on what kind of shitty environment schools can be, parental neglect, and the glamorization of violence in entertainment. Not sure how much a desire for notoriety plays in, but mass killers get lots of articles and books written about them so there's that too. As for acid attacks in other places, I don't really know shit 'em other than they happen.

You post is a tad contradictory. We shouldn't "fret over" particular types of violence because they are inevitabe, and yet you also concede that certain types of violence can be culturally generated. How do you reconcile that?

If something undesirable can be extinguished by a change in culture rather than a change in human nature, is it not worth changing culture? Is that unrealistic?

 

[Leagon]

I think it has to start at the schools. There are kids that will never have someone at home to talk to. It'd be great if they did but the reality of the situation is a lot of kids won't due to anything from absentee parents, drugged out parents (like the boxer kid from The Wire), or parents so busy trying to make ends meet they sadly don't have the chance to talk to their kids more than "here's your dinner".

I remember bringing it up with my school administrators and they didn't believe me. It was literally them going "their parents said their child wouldn't possibly ever do that so it obviously didn't happen."

Well, it fucking did, I put the kid in the hospital with a couple missing teeth and a cracked rib or two and the school tried to suspend me. Mom and dad fought it, suspension went away and I still cut those three days to go fishing with my dad.

Let's look at those kids who don't have anyone to talk to. Do they all shoot up schools? If not, why not?

I'm trying to isolate variables here.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

You post is a tad contradictory. We shouldn't "fret over" particular types of violence because they are inevitabe, and yet you also concede that certain types of violence can be culturally generated. How do you reconcile that?

If something undesirable can be extinguished by a change in culture rather than a change in human nature, is it not worth changing culture? Is that unrealistic?

First off, good luck engineering some cultural change. Even if you achieve your goal there's still going to be unintended consequences. But let's do it. If you want to not have any school shootings then the most effective way is to get rid of schools as we know them and come up with a new way to deliver education. I'm down.

No contradiction. Just you conflating different points. Overall violence is on a downward historical trend. You've picked up on something (i.e. school shootings) that has either grown in instance or simply gained more attention lately, but that doesn't affect the overall numbers of violent crime in any statistically significant way. 100 deaths annually in 350 million people is not something to fret about in the scheme of violence and mental illness. However in the scheme of education it has become a factor that should cause us to reevaluate what's happening. That has nothing to do with those of one culture lashing out with guns vs. another lashing out with acid, knives, or bombs. A little more violence here vs. a little more violence there doesn't change the fact that there are going to be some people who turn to violence. It's in every culture all throughout history to some degree. Just like cuisine takes on different forms in different cultures, so will violence. I already gave some variable that I think might contribute to what we see in the USA with school shootings. Can we lower the instances of violence? Sure. As I said, it's already happening. But I don't believe for a second that we can stamp it all out.

 

[Leagon]

First off, good luck engineering some cultural change. Even if you achieve your goal there's still going to be unintended consequences. But let's do it. If you want to not have any school shootings then the most effective way is to get rid of schools as we know them and come up with a new way to deliver education. I'm down.

No contradiction. Just you conflating different points. Overall violence is on a downward historical trend. You've picked up on something (i.e. school shootings) that has either grown in instance or simply gained more attention lately, but that doesn't affect the overall numbers of violent crime in any statistically significant way. 100 deaths annually in 350 million people is not something to fret about in the scheme of violence and mental illness. However in the scheme of education it has become a factor that should cause us to reevaluate what's happening. That has nothing to do with those of one culture lashing out with guns vs. another lashing out with acid, knives, or bombs. A little more violence here vs. a little more violence there doesn't change the fact that there are going to be some people who turn to violence. It's in every culture all throughout history to some degree. Just like cuisine takes on different forms in different cultures, so will violence. I already gave some variable that I think might contribute to what we see in the USA with school shootings. Can we lower the instances of violence? Sure. As I said, it's already happening. But I don't believe for a second that we can stamp it all out.

You're rehashing points that have already been addressed.

100 deaths via mass shooting is a ton because the typical number of deaths via mass shooting in most places on earth and in most eras of post-gunpowder human history is zero. If five people got disembowled by ravens this year, that would be a lot of fuckin raven disembowlements ans people would probably be warned to stay away from ravens. Numbers are, as I'm saying for the third time, relative.

Do you not care about isolating a variable? Why would you get rid of schools to get rid of school shootings? Schools don't cause school shootings. For some reason, you think school shootings are the same as the rest of violent crime. They're not. This like putting terrorism under "violent crime." In order to fix a problem, you have to first understand that it actually is a distinct problem. You don't believe that to be the case with school shootings, apparently? If you don't believe that school shootings are in any way distinct from other violent crimes, then there's not enough common ground for us to discuss.

Also, the idea that cultural engineering shouldn't happen because it would have unintended consequences is bizarre. We engineer culture all the time. How many hours a day does the average American work? How many times do they eat? At which hours? Which food is typically available to them? Do they walk to work or drive? How long is the average commute? How spacious is the average car? How many people can fit inside it? How much fuel does it require? What music is available while they drive? Which instruments are most prominent in that music? How long does the average song last?

All of these things are decided by people for very specific reasons. Culture doesn't just happen. It's not magic. Unless you want to make a religious argument, I'm not really sure how you think culture happens, if not by engineering.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

You're rehashing points that have already been addressed.

Yeah, cause that's where you lead the dance. I tried to get it into remedies and you had no appetite for detail there. I'll just sign off here now since you've recognized my relevant points enough to see that they're repeating.

Cheers. Nice conversing with you.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I have a possible explanation for school shootings. Lets call it the hockey enforcer/fighting theory.

This idea comes from the defense of how enforcers and fist fights serve a purpose in hockey. That it police's the game, from things getting really nasty.

The idea here would be that by making schools these no violence, zero tolerance zones, we are keeping the kids from doing what kids do, and that is talk shit, and get your ass whipped for it.

Now I'm not advocating that we start letting kids have brawls unsupervised, and handle shit on their own. I'm sure that would evolve into group fights and guns, as well.

But how about sanctioned fights?

If you haven't guessed, I am arguing for school sanctioned MMA Leagues.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

If you haven't guessed, I am arguing for school sanctioned MMA Leagues.

And firearms safety and marksmanship should be part of the physical education curriculum.

 

[VivaRevolution]

And firearms safety and marksmanship should be part of the physical education curriculum.

Lol, that would probably put a stop to mass shootings. At that point I think we would have to call them targeted murders.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Lol, that would probably put a stop to mass shootings. At that point I think we would have to call them targeted murders.

It's the duty of public schools to teach kids about their rights and how to exercise them. They sure don't mind pushing that pledge of allegiance bullshit. I had to take a cooking class. If that's something someone can't learn at home then maybe some parents need investigated for neglect. I had to take swimming. Lots of people drown so I guess danger isn't the ultimate concern.

I think it really comes down to schools being s.

 

[savemgs]

doesn't help that most these doctors put these kids on antidepressants and antipsychotics among other mind altering substances. In which 95% have all in common that the kids who did it was on it

But in my professional opinion I'm going to blame the video game Doom.

 

[Badger67]

doesn't help that most these doctors put these kids on antidepressants and antipsychotics among other mind altering substances. In which 95% have all in common that the kids who did it was on it

But in my professional opinion I'm going to blame the video game Doom.

Is it not the parents who take the kids to the doctors and say do something about this im a lazy fucktwit who cant raise my kids?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Interesting piece on school today being quite different with social media.

http://www.businessinsider.com/unde...truggling-with-depression-in-record-numbers-5

 

[Gregolian]

Is it not the parents who take the kids to the doctors and say do something about this im a lazy fucktwit who cant raise my kids?

Sometimes they only see the doctor though cause of the school saying your child is a behavioral problem

Interesting piece on school today being quite different with social media.

http://www.businessinsider.com/unde...truggling-with-depression-in-record-numbers-5

This is key too.

In my day the bullying stopped when I went home cause of the lack of shit. MySpace and FB were pretty new while I was finishing high school. Can't imagine what it's like now if kids have that shit when they're in like 6th or 7th grade.

 

[Badger67]

Sometimes they only see the doctor though cause of the school saying your child is a behavioral problem


This is key too.

In my day the bullying stopped when I went home cause of the lack of shit. MySpace and FB were pretty new while I was finishing high school. Can't imagine what it's like now if kids have that shit when they're in like 6th or 7th grade.

Kids under 16 are seeing doctors by themselves and parents arent informed of any prescriptions or assessments? If thats the case i have no words for that level of idiocy.

 

[Gregolian]

Kids under 16 are seeing doctors by themselves and parents arent informed of any prescriptions or assessments? If thats the case i have no words for that level of idiocy.

You're a real simpleton aren't you?

Parents don't have medical degrees so you put your trust in the doctor that they aren't going to jerk you around with the medications.

EDIT:
Seriously, how did you take my post that is pretty self explanatory and go to where you went?

 

[Tylerl90]

Allow full, true enforcement of Second Amendment rights. Zero "gun free" zones. Until you're unwilling to accept that, then I don't wanna hear any baseless gun control debate.

Also, plenty of unemployed veterans that would love to get paid to protect school children.

 

[Prutfis]

Allow full, true enforcement of Second Amendment rights. Zero "gun free" zones. Until you're unwilling to accept that, then I don't wanna hear any baseless gun control debate.

Also, plenty of unemployed veterans that would love to get paid to protect school children.

The solution to shootings = Mooooore guns. lol...