Scissor takedowns - frowned upon in you BJJ school?

[Bullheaded]

Garry Tonon was scissoring like nobody's business at polaris - so I assume it's still legal in certain competitions.

But - I have better insight into the dangers now.

Lauzon did it a bunch of times in MMA.

Danaher also said recently he doesn't teach it anymore because he's seen too much catastrophic injuries because of it.

I've drilled it a number of times, in judo and in nogi. Even when I did, I saw people reacting very weirdly to it, so I don't look for it in sparring. It can go wrong too easily for me.

 

[Quebec Nick]

For the single leg counter you were talking about I don't really see that there's a problem

You are so close to the guy and, from the way I saw it done by people at my gym, you're just falling to your ass to complete the move.

Almost like those deep DLR moves (or dlr X)

But jumping in the legs with your butt is never a good idea.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I will use them against skilled training partners who I know aren't going to hurt themselves by reacting incorrectly, but even then it's only if I can get off a very clean attempt. And I never do the old school leg scissors with the top leg fully across the hip, I only do the variation with one leg in the middle (like off an attempted single). I feel like it's a lot safer though I can't back that up with any sort of data. The safest way I think is to have the leg in the middle and have a strong overhook, I won't do it unless I have both of those because without those two points of contact I don't feel like I can control my own body's motion sufficiently to do the move safely.

 

[shunyata]

I've started doing these recently - and in certain situations, they seem ridiculously effective.

By example - if a dude goes for a hip toss, as a counter, or counter to a single leg etc.

And also - jumping on a leg with a scissor to go straight into 50/50 etc.

BUT - I was hesitant to ask, "are these allowed?" - mainly cause I don't want to hear, "no" - and thus, be deprived of the opportunity to practice them.

I understand they can be kind of dangerous.

Are these generally allowed or no?

Drilling them in a non beginner class with the instructor leading and supervising? Yes, been there done that.

In sparring / rolls / rondori? Generally frowned upon. If you try it once and land it clean and safe no one is usually going to say anything. If you keep spamming it expect to have a chat with the head instructor soon.

You just started doing them recently, hadn't done them before in sparring, and you're confident in your ability because of.....what then?

Because it doesn't sound particularly like you did the relevant stuff to figure out if you're actually good at them or not. You could just let people know you're trying to practice them and let them make their own decision about their own safety.

Yeah TS would be far better off drilling them with supervision for a few months than trying them in rondori.

 

[GB727]

I had been allowing them in my school but we had an incident in sparring where a purple belt student messed up the setup and ended up fracturing a bone in a black belts ankle. I didn't see it happen but from now on I've told that student he can do them against me in sparring but not anyone else. The only other stand up technique I've banned in training is jumping closed guard which has also been the source of a couple injuries.

 

[shunyata]

I had been allowing them in my school but we had an incident in sparring where a purple belt student messed up the setup and ended up fracturing a bone in a black belts ankle. I didn't see it happen but from now on I've told that student he can do them against me in sparring but not anyone else. The only other stand up technique I've banned in training is jumping closed guard which has also been the source of a couple injuries.

IMHO jumping guard should either be banned...

OR slamming an opponent who jumped guard is now perfectly legal.

 

[yetanother]

I think it's super unlikely that slamming will be ever legal. IMHO it would be stupid if you could hit someone with the mat while you can't punch them in the face.

 

[TeamKenpo]

Very dangerous technique. It’s usually not allowed in live sparring or competition. I’ve only ever drilled it a few times and I still felt really uncomfortable having it done to me.

Personally, I would never train live with this move. If a training partner attempted it on me without asking (if asked, the answer would always be no) I would probably be tight.

As I assume is the case with most folk on this forum, I’m an amateur grappler. I’m not looking to be rehabbing a shredded knee for a year.

 

[Thrawn33]

First day of BJJ the assistant coach hit me with kamibasimi and followed up with a leg submission (he knew I was a judo Brown belt and former wrestler)

After that I threw him a few times with me getting swept and subbed immediately following...

Much fun was had

That's how I picked that gym

 

[EatMyShorts]

IMHO jumping guard should either be banned...

OR slamming an opponent who jumped guard is now perfectly legal.

So - jumping into triangles and armbars from standing may also be a questionable area?

Cause that's the next technique I have been looking at.

 

[Dogstarman]

I didn't ask cause, like heel hooks, I know I can perform them competently without injuring anyone.
Though I understand why they don't let rookies just rip that shit, of course, I feel that doesn't apply to me cause, I know I have that personal level of control and refinement in technique application.

And my school owners are SUPER uptight about techniques outside of IBJJF rules - potentially depriving me of practice opportunities.

So I can practice away under the guise of being "unaware" they're illegal, until I get called on it.

Then, I'll probably have to cut that shit out.

Sometimes it’s not you that is applying them, that hurts their training partner. If your training partner has no idea what you are doing the potential to cause an injury is great.

Take the inside heel hook for example. If you apply it correctly, and your partner tries to roll out of it, even though you aren’t cranking is a potential to for disaster. The same goes with scissor takedowns. I’ve heard Riley Bodycomb speak to the effectiveness of the scissor takedown, he does say, if you or your training partner, aren’t versed in it, it’s not worth doing, the potential for injury is great.

Please don’t do things you know are frowned upon in your gym. You are a walking hazard.

 

[shunyata]

I think it's super unlikely that slamming will be ever legal. IMHO it would be stupid if you could hit someone with the mat while you can't punch them in the face.

Between shoulder of justice grinding faces into the mat, knee on face, the accidental headbutts I've taken...

I never really expected gi or nogi to be no contact sparring.

Hitting the mat happens pretty commonly in grappling as is. Dropping a guard jumper is no worse than a good takedown in terms of impact and they should get what they pay for when jumping guard.

 

[DatCutman]

I think I've been flying scissored, all variations, hundreds of times. Yet somehow I'm still walking, which according to this thread I should be rolling around on the ground, crawling with my hands. Sambo schools should all just have wheelchair ramps.

 

[Dirty Holt]

I hit this on one of my wrestlers and he tried to pivot at the same time. I snapped his tibia in half and caused a ton of nerve damage with a spiral fracture. He had a titanium rod in his leg and couldnt walk for months. He was in a wheelchair and life was miserable for him. He was on the agriculture track in our highschool and could not finish it because he could not get to any of the agriculture areas because of the wheelchair. Talk about feeling like a shitty coach.

In college, one of our guys hit this on the San Francisco State kid and blew out his ACL the kids senior year of college. He was a returning All American and highly ranked. Even with the cleanest technique, things can go bad with this move. They have shown this at a few gyms I train at and I just leave that day. A cut back/3 in a row is a way safer option and just as effective.

 

[EatMyShorts]

A cut back/3 in a row is a way safer option and just as effective.

Never heard of it.

What's mean?

So - the idea of scissor sweep during single leg counter - you're with or against that idea also?
Hip toss counter?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Completely legal in sambo (together with all bunch of other similar entries to leglocks) and I have seen less injuries from kanibasami than sasaetsurikomi.
Problem with the technique is only when its badly executed.
@RJ Green already made a very good point for the execution.
The video of Kesting, he drops on the knee, same way as Saito dropped on Yamashita's knee, which leeds to immediate injury, instead of a takedown (which is the original intend).
@Uchi Mata states an important detail- do not go all the way across with the front leg.
Its safer for people with no takedown experience, if executed with arm support (placing the hand on the mat)

 

[EatMyShorts]

Completely legal in sambo (together with all bunch of other similar entries to leglocks) and I have seen less injuries from kanibasami than sasaetsurikomi.
Problem with the technique is only when its badly executed.
@RJ Green already made a very good point for the execution.
The video of Kesting, he drops on the knee, same way as Saito dropped on Yamashita's knee, which leeds to immediate injury, instead of a takedown (which is the original intend).
@Uchi Mata states an important detail- do not go all the way across with the front leg.
Its safer for people with no takedown experience, if executed with arm support (placing the hand on the mat)

Very well.

For those of us who don't speak sambo - can you translate that aforementioned technical jargon?

Okay so - go with front leg laced between theirs - always?

And avoid basically butt-dropping on their knee joint?
That's fair.


Leads me to my next question.

Jumping straight into saddle or 50/50 position - does this fall into the same category of scissor takedowns?

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

For someone so confident you can do it safely, you dont seem all that certain on how the technique should be done.

Just learn how to hit a cutback.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Never heard of it.

What's mean?

So - the idea of scissor sweep during single leg counter - you're with or against that idea also?
Hip toss counter?

I dont like the scissors from any position, because its dangerous from any position. Drastically more dangerous than any heel hook because you cant tap from it. A cut back is way safer. Here is a video of a cutback. Although I find this guy super annoying, he shows it quickly and efficiently.

 

[Zankou]

That’s cool and basically the reverse of the rolling kneebar you can hit going forwards... I suppose you could combo them.