Self defense to sport Jiu Jitsu

[maximus__]

I rolled with some of the other students when i trained,but i never felt pressured or uncomfortable rolling with them,i felt i could handle it even if i couldn't submit them.
But here they seem to have so much control over me things like the elbow escape from mount were so hard to pull off,maybe it's because i rolled with the competition team and my technique isn't really that great under pressure.
I left my old school due to my instructor not agreeing with competition and bad mouthing other students that compete which i don't think is a respectful thing to do.
Several other students have left for the same reason.
Just to be sure,would you say i should train more focused on techniques or try to get more rolling time in?
My coach said do whatever i'm comfortable with but that didn't really give me an answer haha
Thanks for the advice,i appreciate it!

The gracie white to blue belt curriculum is based on using techniques against untrained people and as you said you were grappling against the competition team. These techniques will still work, but these trained grapplers won't make those mistakes that open these moves up as easily. You need to create space, bad posture and similar before you can hit those escapes.

As you roll more and with higher level grapplers you will start to realise the correct timing to do these techniques and they will start being effective. For example, Unless I outweigh someone I have no chance of hitting the Upa escape on it's own once someone settles into a good mount. The way I escape is to get them while they are transitioning or use it to create space to recover half guard and work from there.

You have the basic techniques needed to be successful and now you just need to roll more to learn how to apply them. I guarantee if you roll with someone on their first day you will have no issue executing these techniques as you have learnt them, but against trained grapplers you will need to combine things and use transitions as a chance to get that same technique.

Your previous instructor sounds like he might not have been that great and knew that his students would get exposed because of how he approached training.

 

[Uchi Mata]

My coach has a set curriculum that's 6 months long that he makes new people go through before they can roll (though they do a lot of live positional sparring prior to that). I was initially pretty skeptical being of the 'just bang bro' school myself, but over time I've come to see a few really big positives to his approach:

• White belts, especially people who start training as adults who haven't done combat sports before, are really, really intimidated by BJJ. If you throw them in right away, even with safe training partners, they often conclude that BJJ is just confusing and uncomfortable and give up because they're just getting beat up with no idea what they should be doing. Putting them through a basics class first means that when they do start rolling they're not freaked out by it.
• They don't develop bad habits early, because when they start rolling they have at least some idea of what they ought to be doing in all the basic positions.
  
• They are generally good training partners even when they first start, again because they know what they're trying to do to some extent. I've never seen someone come out of my coach's beginner class who did things like slam people, flop on them, manipulate small joints, etc. All the shit that noobs do that gets people hurt they've learned not to do by the time they start rolling.

The first one is probably the most important. It's easy for us as veteran grapplers to forget how unpleasant rolling can actually be when you first start. It's confusing and often painful for white belts; if you equip them with at least a few tools before you send them out there they're much more likely to feel that the juice is worth the squeeze so to speak. No one wants to pay money and take time out of their day just to get beat up in ways they don't understand at all, it's just not that useful for skills development.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

My coach has a set curriculum that's 6 months long that he makes new people go through before they can roll (though they do a lot of live positional sparring prior to that). I was initially pretty skeptical being of the 'just bang bro' school myself, but over time I've come to see a few really big positives to his approach:

• White belts, especially people who start training as adults who haven't done combat sports before, are really, really intimidated by BJJ. If you throw them in right away, even with safe training partners, they often conclude that BJJ is just confusing and uncomfortable and give up because they're just getting beat up with no idea what they should be doing. Putting them through a basics class first means that when they do start rolling they're not freaked out by it.
• They don't develop bad habits early, because when they start rolling they have at least some idea of what they ought to be doing in all the basic positions.
  
• They are generally good training partners even when they first start, again because they know what they're trying to do to some extent. I've never seen someone come out of my coach's beginner class who did things like slam people, flop on them, manipulate small joints, etc. All the shit that noobs do that gets people hurt they've learned not to do by the time they start rolling.

The first one is probably the most important. It's easy for us as veteran grapplers to forget how unpleasant rolling can actually be when you first start. It's confusing and often painful for white belts; if you equip them with at least a few tools before you send them out there they're much more likely to feel that the juice is worth the squeeze so to speak. No one wants to pay money and take time out of their day just to get beat up in ways they don't understand at all, it's just not that useful for skills development.

Ive come to the conclusion that it's nothing but ego what turns people away at first. Some can handle some can't, It's the instructors responsibility to make sure and explain to them what's gokng to happen what they are about to expirnce and there that it is not a fight and eventhough he will feel adrenaline just try to have fun.

rolling is what makes bjj fun, I can't see for the love of god not rolling for 6 months, I would've left by the second week, and I started at 29...just my opinion.

 

[CFGroup]

Sounds like u r in a much better school now. In my book you should know and be 100% cool with getting crushed. That's part of the process.

In the limited pure BJJ I've done it's been full out rolling and it's on you to cross train to be in the condition to endure it.

Looks like you have a good place to train now.

Enjoy it!

 

[Uchi Mata]

Ive come to the conclusion that it's nothing but ego what turns people away at first. Some can handle some can't, It's the instructors responsibility to make sure and explain to them what's gokng to happen what they are about to expirnce and there that it is not a fight and eventhough he will feel adrenaline just try to have fun.

rolling is what makes bjj fun, I can't see for the love of god not rolling for 6 months, I would've left by the second week, and I started at 29...just my opinion.

I don't think it's necessarily ego. I suppose if someone came in thinking they'd be able to beat people with no training and got frustrated when they couldn't it would be ego (and stupidity), but leaving a situation where you're getting beat up and have no idea what you're supposed to do isn't always ego driven, it's just a rational decision that hey, this feels terrible, and I have no idea what I'm getting out of it. It's really not fun if you have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

Strikers rarely spar in their first few months because it's just pain and confusion with no point until they get good enough to at least know what to try. It's largely the same in grappling, we just throw people in the deep end on the assumption that, hey, they're not going to get really hurt. And that's true, but it doesn't make rolling without any context for what's going on any less dispiriting.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I don't think it's necessarily ego. I suppose if someone came in thinking they'd be able to beat people with no training and got frustrated when they couldn't it would be ego (and stupidity), but leaving a situation where you're getting beat up and have no idea what you're supposed to do isn't always ego driven, it's just a rational decision that hey, this feels terrible, and I have no idea what I'm getting out of it. It's really not fun if you have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

Strikers rarely spar in their first few months because it's just pain and confusion with no point until they get good enough to at least know what to try. It's largely the same in grappling, we just throw people in the deep end on the assumption that, hey, they're not going to get really hurt. And that's true, but it doesn't make rolling without any context for what's going on any less dispiriting.

but it is supposed to happen that way, imagine if you can just walk in a bjj gym and start man handling everyone eventhough you dont know what your doing and you are just doing it based on natural skills. That would mean the art sucks and why would anyone spend any time training something you are already good at.

I believe its the adrenaline what people dont like, its that feeling of getting into a fight, I believe that is driven by ego, no one likes to be tooled and feel powerless, but if you could remove that adrenaline by simple saying, listen this is not a fist fight, we are just going to roll around, try to pass my legs and get to my side, try to mount me and do whatever you feel like doing afterwards, try to choke me, joint lock me whatever as long you dont strike me, just have fun... IT IS ALSO very important that as coaches, we know how to lead these rolls, we should just play around, having a smile doesnt hurt, and depending on the subject, sweep and submit, for example If im getting a full on nerd trying bjj, Im going to go super light sweep him and gently sub him once or twice, just to give him a feel of the moves. IF im getting an athletic rugby player whos there to prove whether this shit works or not, im going to go a little harder, going to make him carry my weight and probably sub him 3 to 4 times... why? to pump my ego? no, to make him come back, would that crush his ego? probably, but Its again up to the instructor to talk him down and make the roll friendly even though it was physically kind of hard for him. Talk to him that it is to be expected and constantly remember him that he should just have fun on his first roll. IT also helps that im 75 kilos, so big dudes get the "oh shit im rolling with a ninja", this shit must work.... type of feeling. You need to make the person feel comfortable and adjust the intensity and the type of rolling experience you provide to the student. I know this is very improbable in classes with lots of students, I run a small class so, I have this privilege.

But no matter what, there is people who still wont like, and no matter what wouldnt like bjj, you may be able to keep them coming for a few months not making them roll, but eventually they will vanish, and since im making no money out of bjj, I really dont care about that type of person coming back.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

My coach has a set curriculum that's 6 months long that he makes new people go through before they can roll (though they do a lot of live positional sparring prior to that). I was initially pretty skeptical being of the 'just bang bro' school myself, but over time I've come to see a few really big positives to his approach:

• White belts, especially people who start training as adults who haven't done combat sports before, are really, really intimidated by BJJ. If you throw them in right away, even with safe training partners, they often conclude that BJJ is just confusing and uncomfortable and give up because they're just getting beat up with no idea what they should be doing. Putting them through a basics class first means that when they do start rolling they're not freaked out by it.
• They don't develop bad habits early, because when they start rolling they have at least some idea of what they ought to be doing in all the basic positions.
  
• They are generally good training partners even when they first start, again because they know what they're trying to do to some extent. I've never seen someone come out of my coach's beginner class who did things like slam people, flop on them, manipulate small joints, etc. All the shit that noobs do that gets people hurt they've learned not to do by the time they start rolling.

The first one is probably the most important. It's easy for us as veteran grapplers to forget how unpleasant rolling can actually be when you first start. It's confusing and often painful for white belts; if you equip them with at least a few tools before you send them out there they're much more likely to feel that the juice is worth the squeeze so to speak. No one wants to pay money and take time out of their day just to get beat up in ways they don't understand at all, it's just not that useful for skills development.

Would give this post two likes if I could.

 

[Russky]

Ive come to the conclusion that it's nothing but ego what turns people away at first.

Smashing newbies who got no knowledge and skill is a demonstration of ego that turns people away at first.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Smashing newbies who got no knowledge and skill is a demonstration of ego that turns people away at first.

whos smashing newbis?

 

[lechien]

I really like both side of the discussion.

Situational rolling vs rolling in general population etc....

But at the end of the day, you either have it or you don't and I rather find out as soon as possible.

What if after 6 months of situational rolling, the students finds out that Bjj is not for him because he does not like getting submitted?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I really like both side of the discussion.

Situational rolling vs rolling in general population etc....

But at the end of the day, you either have it or you don't and I rather find out as soon as possible.

What if after 6 months of situational rolling, the students finds out that Bjj is not for him because he does not like getting submitted?

basically.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I really like both side of the discussion.

Situational rolling vs rolling in general population etc....

But at the end of the day, you either have it or you don't and I rather find out as soon as possible.

What if after 6 months of situational rolling, the students finds out that Bjj is not for him because he does not like getting submitted?

Then at least he knows somewhat what BJJ is about when making that decision, he didn't just come in, get beat on a little, and leave frustrated and confused.

And I don't think it's really true that you either have it or you don't. Or maybe it is, but for many people they've never tried something like BJJ before so it's a learning process to figure out if it's for them or not. For many people I think their feelings about BJJ are somewhere in the middle, such that they like the art but it's hard for them to cope mentally with getting beaten up a lot. There are a ton of marginal people like that (just look at all the emo white and blue belt posts on /r/bjj), if you beat them up day 1 they're never coming back, if you give them a taste of the art they get hooked and that allows them to make it through the initial discomfort of live rolling.

I've seen this in many different schools. My university Judo club was super tough, we'd start out with all these freshman who were interested in Judo and we'd just beat the snot out of them, and like 2 would make it to the end of the year. Most came 1-2x and never came back. The people who stayed were definitely tough, but we lost a ton of potential training partners in the meantime because we didn't give them a chance to try the art without getting shit kicked. At my current BJJ school where we make people wait our retention is much better, and I personally haven't noticed any difference between our white belts when they do start rolling and any other white belts I've rolled with over the years who started live day 1. Easing people in to some extent doesn't make you a pussy, it just makes you a better coach for beginners. Everyone blue and up still rolls hard as balls, we're not a flow rolling academy. We just don't start people out like that.

 

[lechien]

I definitely see the pro and cons of both point of views.

I had to de program some of my students attitude because they felt that it is their duty to tap as many time possible the visiting newbie because it is how they fell in love with Bjj in their first class. Getting easily submitted and see how good it works.

I had to explain to them that it is nor necessary to do that and most case people join a club because they already convinced that it works.

An easier way to explain. In boxing, we don't put the newbies throught the ropes for his first class.

But why we do so in Bjj? Because of no brain damage?

In the other hand, why bother making someone shadow box for 6 months if he realised that he does not like getting punched in the face after 6 months!

 

[Clinchster]

Tap often. So you can get right back in there. It's good to learn to survive, but don't make every roll about surviving. Find out what you're getting tapped by the most, and work the defense (or more importantly, the prevention) to that submission. Take a position that you're constantly getting put in and work that as well, again, the escape, and the prevention. Honestly, whitebelt for me was just learning how and when to move......once I forgot about submissions and just focused on position and submission prevention, my progression took off. It's VERY easy to focus on too many things at once. Take your time, pick a few things, and work at them.

 

[lechien]

Also to add to changes in Bjj class format, my friend went to the USA and took a class. He told me that the instructor turns up. Make them do a warm up and teach techniques of the day, watch drilling. Then it is the enf of the class. If you want to roll, you can stay behind but everyone is leaving including the instructor.

Another gym in town is now offering 1 hour Bjj class on weeknights!!! How much can you learn or roll?

I mean I teach 1 hour class but that is on Saturday only and it covers the weekly fundamental programs which we already covered twice in that oaricukar week. Student can choose to stay for one additional judo class.

 

[CFGroup]

Then at least he knows somewhat what BJJ is about when making that decision, he didn't just come in, get beat on a little, and leave frustrated and confused.

And I don't think it's really true that you either have it or you don't. Or maybe it is, but for many people they've never tried something like BJJ before so it's a learning process to figure out if it's for them or not. For many people I think their feelings about BJJ are somewhere in the middle, such that they like the art but it's hard for them to cope mentally with getting beaten up a lot. There are a ton of marginal people like that (just look at all the emo white and blue belt posts on /r/bjj), if you beat them up day 1 they're never coming back, if you give them a taste of the art they get hooked and that allows them to make it through the initial discomfort of live rolling.

I've seen this in many different schools. My university Judo club was super tough, we'd start out with all these freshman who were interested in Judo and we'd just beat the snot out of them, and like 2 would make it to the end of the year. Most came 1-2x and never came back. The people who stayed were definitely tough, but we lost a ton of potential training partners in the meantime because we didn't give them a chance to try the art without getting shit kicked. At my current BJJ school where we make people wait our retention is much better, and I personally haven't noticed any difference between our white belts when they do start rolling and any other white belts I've rolled with over the years who started live day 1. Easing people in to some extent doesn't make you a pussy, it just makes you a better coach for beginners. Everyone blue and up still rolls hard as balls, we're not a flow rolling academy. We just don't start people out like that.

My last school was like that university club back in the mid 2000's. They tried to smash the shit out of me after the mid ranks found out I trained Judo in my youth and had just finished 10 years of striking.

In hindsight I took the hazing but saw too many good potentials get turned off by it and leave so I taught new guys the Ukemi tricks I learned and drilled Tai Otoshi soft they could protect themselves without getting hurt, then ramped it up to beast mode.

Kinda cool one of the guy just reached Shodan in May that use to take my beginner's class and drilled like that.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

My coach has a set curriculum that's 6 months long that he makes new people go through before they can roll (though they do a lot of live positional sparring prior to that).

What you describe is very close to what the Torrance Gracie Academy affiliation follows. TS for example at his old school, at twice a week, would have completed their "combatives' program in about 8 months. At three days a week would roughly be 6 months. With positional drilling with resistance during that time.

 

[maximus__]

You need a mix of both and to tailor it to the person. I can usually pick the newer guys by them not being able to berimbolo roll in the mat warm ups haha.
I don't think there is any reason to smash new guys and I generally work on the technique of the day with them. That way they at least are familiar with the position and can see some other options from what we worked for the day. If I pass guard I will let them regain and drill it again. I will also pull guard/give up my back after I pass a certain amount of times

I got lucky when I started and purely did specific position rolling. In a one on one setting we would focus on a specific position and 2-3 options from there. The other person would also have 2-3 options to work through. This gave me options and taught me to chain subs and passes together because the other person knew what was coming. I think this is how white belts should start.

I learnt transitions later when I started to roll regularly at a club. Over 7 years later I still use those exact same options I was taught from years ago. I can probably count on both my hands the sweeps and passes I have have added from that first year of positional specific rolling.

 

[Thrawn33]

Colored belts take note:

If you're selected to roll/randori/spar with the newbies it means your instructor trusts you to keep them safe from themselves and your own desire to destroy....or at least destroy in a way that does not embarass/injure said noob.

It's not a waste of your time, you're being tasked with providing instruction.

 

[CFGroup]

Colored belts take note:

If you're selected to roll/randori/spar with the newbies it means your instructor trusts you to keep them safe from themselves and your own desire to destroy....or at least destroy in a way that does not embarass/injure said noob.

It's not a waste of your time, you're being tasked with providing instruction.

First step to teaching your own classes!