Serious Movie Discussion XLII

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Civil War was far and away the beat marvel movie. Really surprisedby it
 
Serious movie discussion? Movies suck right now.
 
Civil War was far and away the beat marvel movie. Really surprisedby it

Havent seen it since release but I do think the the Russo's have really perfected the "team" Marvel formula, Weadon wasn't bad its true but I think his Avengers films just had something of a lack of focus to them, the Russo's know what the centre of there stories are much more than he did and pare down the focus on that.

Going back to something else I haven't seen since its cinema release finally got around to watching a that Black Swan DVD thats been knocking around unopened for a couple of years. Still very enjoyable with Portman excellent in it although a bit trashier than I remember with a few rather clichéd jumpscares. It did perhaps not feel as fresh anymore either since I would say Aronofsky was "first to market" here in terms of using that ultra closeup style in a more mainstream film, since then we've seen it quite a lot in stuff like Under the Skin, Blue is the Warmest Colour and Portmans own Jackie last year which I do have the argument of being better less trashy cinema.
 
Havent seen it since release but I do think the the Russo's have really perfected the "team" Marvel formula, Weadon wasn't bad its true but I think his Avengers films just had something of a lack of focus to them, the Russo's know what the centre of there stories are much more than he did and pare down the focus on that.

Going back to something else I haven't seen since its cinema release finally got around to watching a that Black Swan DVD thats been knocking around unopened for a couple of years. Still very enjoyable with Portman excellent in it although a bit trashier than I remember with a few rather clichéd jumpscares. It did perhaps not feel as fresh anymore either since I would say Aronofsky was "first to market" here in terms of using that ultra closeup style in a more mainstream film, since then we've seen it quite a lot in stuff like Under the Skin, Blue is the Warmest Colour and Portmans own Jackie last year which I do have the argument of being better less trashy cinema.

Civil War was just an awesome movie top to bottom. You're right, the next Avengers movies are in good hands with them at the helm. It's rare to have movies with so many characters that actually do justice to the characters and give everybody their chance to shine.

Black Swan is a good one. Only saw it once, but I definitely was digging the Portman performance and the atmosphere Aronvosky built. My favorite part is probably the sequence that builds to the Portman/Kunis love scene. I really like that moment where she drunkenly interacts with her repressive mother. "You've been drinking." "Ding ding ding."

You see these trailers and TV spots for Aronovsky's new movie, Mother. Looks very fucked up and strange to the extent that I'm very curious to watch it.
 
Civil War was just an awesome movie top to bottom. You're right, the next Avengers movies are in good hands with them at the helm. It's rare to have movies with so many characters that actually do justice to the characters and give everybody their chance to shine.

It will be interesting to see how they handle that, the Cap films did naturally focus on him and they added in a small number of other lead characters with the rest more in the background. Will they do the same with the Avengers? I spose with a two film spilt they could make the focus shift between them, have some character to the fore in the first and others in the second.

Black Swan is a good one. Only saw it once, but I definitely was digging the Portman performance and the atmosphere Aronvosky built. My favorite part is probably the sequence that builds to the Portman/Kunis love scene. I really like that moment where she drunkenly interacts with her repressive mother. "You've been drinking." "Ding ding ding."

You see these trailers and TV spots for Aronovsky's new movie, Mother. Looks very fucked up and strange to the extent that I'm very curious to watch it.

Mother does seem more towards the standard horror aspects you see in Black Swan, could potentially be good but personally I think his biggest strength as a director is more straighter drama, my other favourite film by him would be The Wrestler.

Again I still enjoyed it alot but there did seem a but more of a disparity between Portman's performance and some of the rest of the film. She played the role in a very realistic fashion yet her home environment was rather more over the top full of stuffed toys and such an obviously domineering mother, don't think it needed to be quiet that extreme to get across that she was emotionally/sexually repressed.

Talking about the general style(hyper crossups, shallow depth of focus, moody chiaroscuro cinematography) as well I would actually say whilst its not entirely new having been present more outside the mainstream(Wong Kar-Wai comes to mind) for awhiel previously I wouldn't be supprised if it comes to be viewed as the most significant trend of this era. Its spread outside of the kind of drama's that it camer to the fore in as well, stuff like Fury Road, Contact and Rogue One being recent examples that used aspects quite heavily.
 
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The key success of the film is surely that a lot of people(such as myself) went from being tired of his Wolverine to being sad it was gone by the end.

Makes me hope we get something similar from Marvel in the future for another character, perhaps McKellan's Magneto? that could potentially carry on the story of the kid mutants Logan started with him becoming involved.

Not sure they would have the guts to do it in the MCU but I think a Black Widow film could potentially be taken in a similar kind of direction.
 
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Just watched Get Out.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but that is one overrated movie.

Boy, there was not one surprising twist. Not even the story was particularly inventive. I'll avoid spoilers.

Sorry guys. It did nothing for me.

Except for making me want to rewatch It Follows one more time.
 
Just had a Bill and Ted marathon.
Keanu Reaves sometimes talks about making nr 3

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Not bad graphics for the time

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Just watched Get Out.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but that is one overrated movie.

Boy, there was not one surprising twist. Not even the story was particularly inventive. I'll avoid spoilers.

Sorry guys. It did nothing for me.

Except for making me want to rewatch It Follows one more time.

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Sorry, mang. I enjoyed the black/white theme for a while, even though it was on-the-nose. Nothing else stood out for me.

Acting was brilliant obv.

How much did you know about it going into it? A lot of previews were way too heavy on spoiling plot points. I went in cold and I really enjoyed it. You're right about the acting. Daniel Kaluuya's performance was incredible in particular.
 
How much did you know about it going into it? A lot of previews were way too heavy on spoiling plot points. I went in cold and I really enjoyed it. You're right about the acting. Daniel Kaluuya's performance was incredible in particular.
I saw the trailer about three times and that was it. Most of flashing scenes were in that trailer I suppose.

I was expecting more horror I think. A plot twist would have been nice, too.
 
How much did you know about it going into it? A lot of previews were way too heavy on spoiling plot points. I went in cold and I really enjoyed it. You're right about the acting. Daniel Kaluuya's performance was incredible in particular.

Kaluuya was so damn good and his character was extremely likable.

I feel as though that scene between him and Kenner was easily one of the more effectively shot, acted, executed horror movie scenes of the past few years.
 
I saw the trailer about three times and that was it. Most of flashing scenes were in that trailer I suppose.

I was expecting more horror I think. A plot twist would have been nice, too.

Yeah I felt it was more of a thriller/social satire than a straight up horror movie. Still really entertaining though in my view.
 
@Bullitt68 link me you loganthoughts. The search function sucks

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Yeah, so first, I'm going to start by combining @Ricky13's and @chickenluver's reactions: Holy shit Logan was awesome!

Second, to the skeptics: @Flemmy Stardust, what Ricky's saying about 3:10 to Yuma is legit. The Looper connection either isn't there or I'm just not clear what Ricky means by it (probably the latter as I only watched Looper once and it's been a while whereas I watched 3:10 to Yuma a bunch of times when it came out and it's much fresher in my head), but it's 3:10 to Yuma-ness plus its all-around bad assness is more than worth the price of admission.

And @europe1, the fucking movie is thematically anchored by/in Shane. They even watch the fucking movie at one point. Though, when you watch it - and you will watch it, and soon, because the Shane thing is that fucking important to this movie and so worth your checking it out - you and I can have a discussion of the implications of the specific way it was used.

As for my general reaction, Logan is not just better than every other X-Men movie - and I love that franchise - and it's not just better than every Marvel movie - and I love that franchise, too - it's on a fucking par with Nolan's Batman movies. I might say, in the entire superhero realm, my Olympic pedestal as of this moment is The Dark Knight Rises, The Dark Knight, and Logan. It's that good.

First, the R rating helped tremendously. And the opening scene lets you know right off the bat that this shit is going to be brutal. The brutality is signaled quite literally, but all the way down the line, I'm talking physically, psychologically, emotionally, morally, everything, it's just a brutal fucking movie. That's not to say it's a downbeat, whiny movie. It's just rough as fuck.

Second, Ricky, you were right about the whole "telling its own story" thing. I thought they did a superb job with not only the characterization of Logan but also with Professor X. And I loved the way they threaded the hope theme through their different worldviews (and, specifically, their different responses to the tragedy that befell them) and used Laura to embody it.

And, lest I forget to mention it, the action was on fucking point. Watching Jackman snarl his way through some ferocious carnage was quite a treat, and Laura was fantastic, too. @Dragonlordxxxxx in his review compared her to the Kick Ass girl, but fuck that silly shit. Laura is in a class by herself as far as bad ass kids go. For me, after the opening scene, the two best action scenes were, first, the hotel scene (from conception to execution, it was just brilliant), and second, the end forest scene (just for sheer primal awesomeness).

With The Wolverine, I expected it to suck and was surprised by how good it was. With Logan, I expected it to be at least as good as The Wolverine, maybe not quite that good but at least close, but holy fuck was I surprised at the level this movie was operating on. In most respects, The Dark Knight is a superior film, but the tone of the film, its gravitas, the sense of an ending, the desperation in the hero's quest, it placed Logan right there alongside The Dark Knight Rises as an utterly epic close to a moving saga. I was never as emotionally invested in Wolverine as I was with Batman, so it didn't hit with quite the same impact, but I've loved watching Jackman throughout the X-Men films and I connected to that character very strongly after The Wolverine, and that combined with how well they told this story and how incredibly Jackman performed, Logan for damn sure hits with some real fucking impact.

Anyone even remotely interested in X-Men movies, comic book movies, or action movies should get their ass out to the theater. You won't be disappointed. And, if you are, it just means you suck.
and you will watch it, and soon, because the Shane thing is that fucking important to this movie and so worth your checking it out - you and I can have a discussion of the implications of the specific way it was used.

You can't break the mould.

Both Logan and Shane are men of violence who see the opportunity of settling in a more wholesome, communal, family-existence. I think the differences are sort of more interesting than the similarities though. Shane really tries to integrate. He wants to be a part of the community more than anything else on earth. Ryker and Wilson force his hands. When the going gets rough he feels compelled to use violence again, to be his old self. But that also dooms him, since it would be impossible to re-integrate into the community, since the stamp of violence would change how everyone saw him and thought of him. But he still had to do it because of what he cared about.

As a man of violence, he can solve the question of violence by eliminating Ryker and Wilson. But to really rid the valley of violence he too needs to leave. "There are no more guns in the valley, Joe".

Logan stays at arms-lenght at all times. He rejects the money but never plans to follow them to the promised land. He's to emotionally scared to even try to integrate into the community. But like Shane, he's a man of violence, and therefore he can solve issues related to violence. You can't break the mold. Or -- as the Swedish subtitles said -- you can't change your personality. Ironically, it's violence itself that enables him to forge the bond he wants with Laura, by saving them from the Institute and therefore guaranteeing their future, allowing him to bypass the whole "social interaction" thing-y.

The quote containing the words "Joey, there's no living with... with a killing. There's no going back from one. Right or wrong, it's a brand. A brand sticks." Is a bit wonky for this film though. Shane saves Joey from becomming a man of violence himself (along with the rest of the valley I suppose). And he does so by doing the violence himself. The situation isn't really analogous in Logan since Laura kills a shitload of people herself. By Shane-logic, she already has the stamp. She's already a killer. So is the movie insinuating that she's going to grow up and become like Logan? But that seems particularly egregious since she seems to have a wholesome family-unit with the other kids, which would enable her to grow up and become an emotionally balanced and good human being. The specter of loneliness and violence doesn't seem to hang over Laura the way it did Logan at the end.

Some other random thoughts...

* The hotel scene was fucking awesome. Small, details, like the mercenary shifting his eyes as Logan approaches. Badass.

* This movie was fucking dark man! Children tortured, killed, brainwashed and raised in enslavement. Some really disturbing stuff. I got sort-of pissed off at the audience I was watching this movie with. Near the end where the fat black kid was running away from the soldiers -- a whole slew of people started laughing! They think more about the fact that watching a fat kid running is funny than the fact that these kids are in the process of being slaughered and butchered?

* I thought it was sort of funny how the nurse says "This is illegal in America and Canada" before showing footage of children being killed and experimented on. Like, really? I'm pretty sure those things are illegal world-wide, lady.:p

* I really liked how the evil scientist guy used a negotiation tactic when talking to the mutants (start by acknowledging their pain, accept partial responsibility, claim "greater good" etc). I don't really remember the name but it's a common method for handling a conversation. It shows just how cold-hearted he is. He uses a therapeutic method to try and gain someone's trust. It shows that he thinks that emotions are just something there to be manipulated so that he can gain what he wants.

* My friend kept complaining that Laura's Spanish accent was clearly Spanish instead of Mexican.

* On the subject of Spanish, wouldn't it have been cooler if Laura kept speaking spanish through the film until the Shane-quote came?
You can't break the mould.

I knew you'd dig that.

I think the differences are sort of more interesting than the similarities though. Shane really tries to integrate [...] Logan stays at arms-lenght at all times. He rejects the money but never plans to follow them to the promised land. He's to emotionally scared to even try to integrate into the community.

Remember when we talked about Shane and The Searchers sort of transforming the archetypal Western hero? With what you're saying here, this is where Logan is less like Shane and more like Ethan. Just a miserable, violent son of a bitch who is no longer of this world but who can, if he can manage to convince himself to tap back into that buried remnant of a human being, help those who are of this world.

The quote containing the words "Joey, there's no living with... with a killing. There's no going back from one. Right or wrong, it's a brand. A brand sticks." Is a bit wonky for this film though. Shane saves Joey from becomming a man of violence himself (along with the rest of the valley I suppose). And he does so by doing the violence himself. The situation isn't really analogous in Logan since Laura kills a shitload of people herself. By Shane-logic, she already has the stamp. She's already a killer. So is the movie insinuating that she's going to grow up and become like Logan? But that seems particularly egregious since she seems to have a wholesome family-unit with the other kids, which would enable her to grow up and become an emotionally balanced and good human being. The specter of loneliness and violence doesn't seem to hang over Laura the way it did Logan at the end.

I think, from Logan's perspective, it's a "don't be like me" type deal. If you look at it from the nature/nurture angle, it's waffling a bit, but Logan fell into a deep anger that he couldn't pull himself out of, or that he couldn't pull out of himself. Laura still has a chance, though. She doesn't have to - although she could very easily - become Logan. I think Logan muddies the ethical waters more than Shane does; in the latter, the garden/desert antinomy is very strong and the purity of the former is as pure as it gets. In Logan, though, there's no question of any kind of purity. We're not dealing with a killing. It's more a kind of killing, or a kind of relation to killing. This is an almost hopelessly violent world, but the key is that it isn't hopeless. Laura still has a chance, but only if she holds on to her humanity and she doesn't let the violence consume her.

For me, I had a problem not with the inclusion of the Shane thematic and such allusive storytelling. Rather...

My problem was the way Laura's eulogy was just her parroting the dialogue from when her and Professor X were watching it. Because we, the viewers, know Shane, understand the themes at play, and can map the connections, the fact that it's playing on the TV means something to us. Does it - can it - actually mean anything to Laura? If it doesn't, what are we supposed to do with that? What's the takeaway? My initial reaction was of being struck by the disjunction between the thematic profundity and the diegetic emptiness.

@Ricky13 and @Dragonlordxxxxx, feel free to comment on this one, too.

Holding off on why Prof. X was hidden away, why Logan was helping him, and for some reason begrudgingly, was a mistake. When we do find out, it's farted out of a radio and incoherently at that. This is a bad idea.

For as much as I loved Logan, this I agree with.

Logan is right that the kids are hung-up on unrealistic comic books. What he doesn't get is that living meaningfully is about recognising that those stories are important to someone like Laura.

Important to someone like Laura or important full stop? Obviously, supernerd that I am, I like the latter formulation better...

Also, how does this relate to what I brought up about the inclusion of Shane?

A common sentiment is that the movie was smart to show you it was going to be brutal through its first scene. But that's an era-specific reaction, and means nothing for function. It renders every single head impalement from that point on tepid, and is why the ending, despite its brutality, left me a little cold

Specifically, while it's undeniably an "era-specific reaction," even people binge-watching the X-Men franchise 20 years from now will likely have a very similar "Holy shit, this is different" reaction. Added to which, I cannot disagree strongly enough about the violence post-opening being "tepid." That shit was brutal beginning to end, man, and it was awesome.
Eden was not real correct? Laura got the idea from the X-Men comic books. So the kids made it to the border, but there is no sanctuary waiting for them on the other side, they're just going to die of exposure in the Canadian wilderness right?

Sorry if that's pessimistic.

Eden wasn't real in the sense that she didn't show up and immediately start skipping down the Yellow Brick Road. But it was real in the sense that it fueled not just her but several like-minded people and inspired them to come together for a common cause and commit themselves to making something out of nothing.

It's a testament to romanticism and the perfect answer to skeptics and nihilists (like Logan). It's not "real" in the straw man sense of a fantasy land where all hardship and negativity is magically erased from the human experience but it is real in the profoundly human sense of driving us to be the best versions of ourselves.

@Dragonlordxxxxx Ricky? europe? What say you?
My take on Eden is not romantic as yours. Eden was not real but because it became a rendezvous point and all the kids were there, it became real (sort of).

Come on, Dragon. Let some romance in :D

The "not real but became real" idea is what interests me. In a way - @Ricky13 and @europe1, you guys can chime in on this one, too - Logan and Eden seemed to echo Fury Road and The Green Place. Except, from what I remember, the fact that The Green Place no longer exists in the latter is experienced as a crushing defeat, whereas the fact that Eden "doesn't exist" in the former isn't crushing at all. Eden may not exist like that, like its comic depiction, but that's not to say it can't exist, and like that, to boot. Logan is the one who's hung up on the fact that it "doesn't exist," whereas the kids know that he's, to reference another movie, "looking at this shit the wrong way."
 
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