Serious Question: Did the Heel Hook and Toe Hold come Catch Wrestling or Jiu Jitsu ?

More grips, stances, throws, takedowns, are allowed in bjj than in judo or wrestling. All judo and wrestling takedowns are allowed in bjj.
Sorry I meant to say with the “exception of takedowns” in regards to the part about techniques getting better refined once they get over here. That’s the one area of techniques I feel hasn’t improved or evolved much in bjj. Heel hooks for example came over and have been greatly refined. Sorry my post was confusing.
 
I'm sorry, but that's not my experience. I've been DQ'ed for doing a one arm shoulder throw where my opponent chose to post with their head instead of taking the fall. The slamming /"throws to the head" rule gets abused like any other rule. BJJ tournaments seem to favor the lower amplitude throws over the higher ones, as no one really knows how to breakfall. It creates this awful spiral of ignorance where it plays to your benefit not to know how to breakfall. If you're going to try and be an IBJJF competitor, I'd suggest doing wrestling and BJJ than Judo and BJJ, because you're less likely to be disqualified.

What belt are you? Most of the takedowns from Brazil bases black belts are judo based.
It could have been one ref.
It could be that you really did spike a kid on his head or your judo isnt as good as you think it is.

But there is plenty of documented high amp judo throws in bjj, especially at the brown/black belt level.
 
What belt are you? Most of the takedowns from Brazil bases black belts are judo based.
It could have been one ref.
It could be that you really did spike a kid on his head or your judo isnt as good as you think it is.

But there is plenty of documented high amp judo throws in bjj, especially at the brown/black belt level.

I got my black belt in 2013 in BJJ (my rank in the comp in question). I'd been training Sambo for 5 years, and Judo for 4 years.

I appreciate the insinuation my Judo sucks or that I spiked someone on their head for shits and giggles, the reality is the IBJJF rule set isn't "grappler" friendly, it's "BJJ" friendly. I'd say the ADCC ruleset is closer to being overall "grappler" friendly than any IBJJF event. IBJJF is, as you'd expect, BJJ friendly. BJJ is a grappling art heavily oriented around groundplay and guardplay. I don't begrudge BJJ for being BJJ. But saying it's like JudoPLUS or SamboPLUS is silly. It doesn't allow the most things than any other stand up sport in practice, at least, that hasn't been my experience. As I previously said, that honor goes to the ADCC.
 
Never thought about that with the name heel hook. I first learned one in the early 00's at a Bas Rutten seminar and I know he learned them from Funaki and Suzuki I think. They were catch guys right?


Karl Gotch had a huge influence over the development of sub grappling and later MMA in Japan; almost all the guys who paved way with the 'hard style' wrestling movement were either guys he trained, or guys who were trained by guys he trained, like Inoki, Fujiwara, or Satoru Sayama.
 
I got my black belt in 2013 in BJJ (my rank in the comp in question). I'd been training Sambo for 5 years, and Judo for 4 years.

I appreciate the insinuation my Judo sucks or that I spiked someone on their head for shits and giggles, the reality is the IBJJF rule set isn't "grappler" friendly, it's "BJJ" friendly. I'd say the ADCC ruleset is closer to being overall "grappler" friendly than any IBJJF event. IBJJF is, as you'd expect, BJJ friendly. BJJ is a grappling art heavily oriented around groundplay and guardplay. I don't begrudge BJJ for being BJJ. But saying it's like JudoPLUS or SamboPLUS is silly. It doesn't allow the most things than any other stand up sport in practice, at least, that hasn't been my experience. As I previously said, that honor goes to the ADCC.
Any competition which enforces BJJ’s bizarre and unique obligation for the top person to engage a grounded opponent who refuses to return to the feet must be said to favor BJJ heavily.
 
I got my black belt in 2013 in BJJ (my rank in the comp in question). I'd been training Sambo for 5 years, and Judo for 4 years.

I appreciate the insinuation my Judo sucks or that I spiked someone on their head for shits and giggles, the reality is the IBJJF rule set isn't "grappler" friendly, it's "BJJ" friendly. I'd say the ADCC ruleset is closer to being overall "grappler" friendly than any IBJJF event. IBJJF is, as you'd expect, BJJ friendly. BJJ is a grappling art heavily oriented around groundplay and guardplay. I don't begrudge BJJ for being BJJ. But saying it's like JudoPLUS or SamboPLUS is silly. It doesn't allow the most things than any other stand up sport in practice, at least, that hasn't been my experience. As I previously said, that honor goes to the ADCC.

AdCc isn't a style it's a tournament. Also when did I say it was JudoPLUS or SamboPLUS? As a matter of fact I said that sambo may have more takedowns allowed than in BJJ.

Since you are a black belt how would you explain the numerous highlights of BJJ black belts using big judo throws in competition?
 
Since you are a black belt how would you explain the numerous highlights of BJJ black belts using big judo throws in competition?


They're highlights... they are by definition cherry picked.
 
I appreciate the insinuation my Judo sucks or that I spiked someone on their head for shits and giggles,

Actually lets go back to what I really said:
"It could have been one ref.
It could be that you really did spike a kid on his head or your judo isnt as good as you think it is."

It could have been the ref, it could have been you. I also have trauned judo (2 ~21/2 yeara while i lived in Korea) what I do learned is this ( and you cam correct me if I am wrong) :if a person is clearly skilled I judo and he throws some one in a seo nagi his opponent cant post with their head even if they wanted to.

Dont get me wrong i have been thrown like a raggdoll by highly skillled korean judokas and have seen them train; they send people head over heels and the opponent lands on thier backs.
 
Rickson was on the Joe Rogan podcast once and said initially BJJ didn't have toeholds but once they saw them it was incorporated in.
 
Rickson was on the Joe Rogan podcast once and said initially BJJ didn't have toeholds but once they saw them it was incorporated in.

There are a ton of techniques that weren’t initially in BJJ. Things that we think are basic fundamentals, like triangles and americanas weren’t really incorporated until Rolles’ time.
 
They probably entered the Brazilian grappling scene through Luta Livre which got them from catch. They almost certainly entered the US and Europe scenes through Japanese shoot wrestling, which in turn got it from catch through Karl Gotch or Billy Robinson.

I have never seen any documentation of heel hooks being used in Judo or pre-Kano Jujutsu. It's possible Maeda or one of the other Judo/Jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil learned them from their cross-training in catch (either in Europe or the Americas) and passed it along to their students. It's possible that the heel hook wasn't imported until generations later in the Luta Livre-GJJ rivalry.

If you go a couple generations back in the lineages of non-Gracie Brazilian jiu-jitsu schools, you see a lot of references to so-and-so being a great leglocker. However, that seemed to die out around 30 years ago, and I haven't seen clear mentions of heel hooks being used in particular. The matter is complicated by the tendency of Brazilians to refer to ankle locks, toeholds, and heel hooks collectively as "footlocks". Practically speaking, this makes it impossible to determine whether any of these older masters used heel hooks and if so where they originally learned them. It's possible, and I speculate that this is the case, that heelhooking had all but died out in Brazilian jiu-jitsu before the re-exposure to it through Pancrase/Pride/etc. I may be entirely off-base on that though.

If you look at the modern popular leg locker pioneers, they largely acknowledge two primary sources for their material: Japanese shooto and sambo. Eddie Cummings credits Bodycomb, Krishna Mirjah, and shooto. Bodycomb credits sambo and shooto. Krishna Mirjah acknowledges shooto. Scott Sonnon (love him or hate him) acknowledges sambo. Daisuke Yamaji hasn't publicly spoken on the matter to my knowledge but my friend who trains there has heard him mention shooto. Danaher doesn't seem to want to credit anyone beyond a cursory thanks to Dean Lister but we all know that leg locking didn't take off in his team until Cummings joined it. Dean Lister credits sambo, Luta Livre, and a little shooto. The Machados seem to mostly credit sambo.

(I use "shooto" in the above as a catch-all term for Japanese shoot wrestling based on catch. It is not always the most accurate term but you get the idea.)

And then sambo itself took a ton of its leg locks from catch wrestling! So really, it all seems to go back to catch through a few steps removed.

Summary: I've seen almost no reason to think that the modern use of heel hooks owes anything to Judo or older Jujutsu styles. On the other hand, there are a lot of reasons to think that it derives from the influence of styles descending from catch wrestling.

Ancient thread resurrect, but I didn't see any info on this since this time so I thought I might shed a little light. Almost all of the leglocks present in shooto, the hybrid grassroots amateur wrestling MMA style, gym, school, promotion or whatever you want to call it as it existed or lives on in Japan originally took most of its leg locks from sambo. The grappling art and teacher that had the most influence on Satoru Sayama, shooto's originator/founder, was sambo by way of Viktor Koga, a Russo-Japanese wrestler-judoka who took up sambo and spent decades popularizing it globally and in Japan. This is why you see many straight shooto guys who have known nothing but shooto claim sambo heritage, wearing sambo kurtkas "representing" sambo in MMA. So all of the modern BJJ leg lock pioneers who largely acknowledge two sources, shooto and sambo, are really pointing back to one source - sambo.
 
I think it is somewhat of a mystery where is came from, but there seems to have come from 1 person and then spread. Ivan Gomes was a pro fighter from Brazil that was famous for this technique. People though he invented it, but his brother said he got it from one of his teachers Takeo Yano. Yano was from Japan and trained Judo and jujitsu as well I beleive. He also trained with catch wrestlers and exchanged techniques with them. We don't know where he learned it from, Judoka, Jujitsuka or a catch wrestler. He could have also invented it himself.

Anyway I believe it was Gomes that spread in around Brazil and in Japan when he started working as a pro wrestler with Antonio Inoki. I believe many say they learned it directly from him.
 
However these techniques percolated into BJJ or were recently re-invented, they aren't new.

Ugso2bV.jpeg
 
However these techniques percolated into BJJ or were recently re-invented, they aren't new.

Ugso2bV.jpeg
If he would just extend his foot and roll to his right, he'd be in position to armbar the front leg part of the horse part of the centaur. Centaur is reaping, must be NAGA.
 
I like and respect both arts but I just wanted to know if The Heel Hook and Toe Hold came from Jiu Jitsu or Catch Wrestling.

Are there any sources out there to even find out ?
Toe-hold is definitely catch-wrestling; the figure-four toe-hold of modern times was called the double toe-lock in Paul Prehn's book on catch-wrestling and was said to have been popularized by Lou Talaber. I believe sambo also attributes the toe-hold to catch-wrestling in their records. The etymology of the heel-hook is hard to pin down. It is said that Ivan Gomes introduced it to New Japan Pro Wrestling, who of course, had no lack of of exposure to catch-wrestling, so at the very least, not everyone in catch-wrestling was doing it, since guys like Fujiwara say they never saw it before Gomes showed it to them. Gomes had influences from luta livre and BJJ and I believe his main teacher was Takeo Yano, if I'm not mistaken. Yano did Japanese jujutsu as well as luta livre, so again, it is hard to pin down which style, if either, takes the credit for Gomes' knowledge here.

Evan Lewis beat people by twisting their legs, but we don't know quite how he did it. It could've been something like a heel-hook, but who knows for sure?
 
I'm sorry, but that's not my experience. I've been DQ'ed for doing a one arm shoulder throw where my opponent chose to post with their head instead of taking the fall. The slamming /"throws to the head" rule gets abused like any other rule. BJJ tournaments seem to favor the lower amplitude throws over the higher ones, as no one really knows how to breakfall. It creates this awful spiral of ignorance where it plays to your benefit not to know how to breakfall. If you're going to try and be an IBJJF competitor, I'd suggest doing wrestling and BJJ than Judo and BJJ, because you're less likely to be disqualified.
Embarrassing if true
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