shadowboxing vs forms

[Jukai]

They are not meant to be used. When is the last time you hit someone with a stepping punch? However, when was the last time in kickboxing that your countering timing and distance was influenced by your karate training.

When was the last time you grabbed someone by the their clothes, spun and threw them as you jumped versus when was the last time you moved in a way that was free of thought that it surprised you. That is because a martial art allows the expression of movement. If you have done so many different movements then your capacity for freedom of movement and expression is higher.

These stuck in the mud 1-2-6 guys who think in terms of technique will not get it because they are stuck in straight missionary position. Can you get good fighting like that? Sure. In MMA I would liken it to Thiago Silva. I would look at one who practices many different ways and has experience using his body like A. Silva or JBJ. Somewhere along the line, they moved in different ways, develop confidence in moving in different ways and can be dynamic. They do not do forms work but they have a way to move that does not make them limited. That to me is what forms do. Bending, twisting, elbow up, jump, kick and fall...... they give me athleticism that I did movements with my body and I am pliable. Karate forms is NOT the only way to get that but it is a way until someone else figures some other way.

We write differently than we speak and that is exactly the same relationship between forms and fighting. One is the system of movement, approach and inventory of grammar and the other is the means of communicating which is stripped of some rules and allows for inflection, tone and expression. They are taught that way for a reason and the reason is beneficial to the style. All you need to do is translate it.

It is unique athletic training that trains intensity and focus. Go with it rather than reject it.

I think we're going to have to disagree here. I don't believe training moves that I never used in either point karate or kickboxing helped me develop the moves I did use in point karate or kickboxing, outside of developing breathing/balance/agility.

I think my kickboxing was helped greatly by my Karate-- as you said, I had different timing and distance that people were used to. But that was from the sparring, the two-man drills, the repetition of techniques a thousand times on a hardwood floor... and nothing to do with practicing synchronized moves and stances that I didn't know the meaning of.
It is possible it is because I never looked for meaning, but I have my doubts. Karate evolved and the katas stayed the same.

 

[ericPorkChop]

I think it depends on the form.

In Chinese martial arts, you have some forms (or sections of forms) that are more of a yogic type routine to build certain muscles & breath control techniques. These types of forms are a bit more health-oriented, more about developing the body, and are probably better considered just one more exercise in the arsenal (along with kettlebell/stone-lock swings, sun salutations, and burpees).

Other forms (or sections of forms) are more fighting-oriented. Some forms of ChoyLayFut have the 10 seeds, for example. These are 10 different punches/combos that they actually do use in sparring. Ideally you'd learn a form or two with the 10 seeds, so you have some set transitions, and then from there you learn to shadow with them. It's that last step that a lot of people assume isn't there because either they don't get it, they don't get that far, or it's not explicitly told to them.

In sanshou we'd look to our traditional forms for applicable throws, counters, & transitions, then we'd mix it into our shadowboxing. Is it going to look like a pretty "wave hands through clouds" (ie a taiji move) when I'm shadowboxing or is it going to look like an "opposite-hand scooping kick catch + sweep"? What if the answer's both? Does it really matter?

I guess my point is why can't it be seen as a progression? In boxing, sanshou, muay thai, etc you practice your footwork, combos, counters, and defenses in the mirror long before you do free form shadowboxing with them. Why is this any different?

 

[fluffball]

Forms have no advantage over shadowboxing other then that they may look cooler then the normal shadowboxing.

does this mean that forms are useless? no.. but they are not better then shadowboxing.

I can't believe I'm defending forms, but they have an entirely different purpose than shadowboxing, so they do obviously have advantages. Shadowboxing is generally for fighting, forms are generally for self defense.

TMAs have a really cool library of motions that have multiple applications, and forms are that library. What strip mall karate schools have retardedly called "blocks" are the basics for clinching, joint locks and punching and you modify each gross motor movement slightly to fit. These are the scales, and the application is the jazz. There are no blocks in karate. Even if you do block an attack, you are simultaneously attacking yourself.

So a good example of how to practice a form would be do your form, then move on to live partner drills where you use that particular application you were thinking about in your form, and not any of the other applications that are also viable. These are typically illegal techniques in MMA and definitely in boxing, with the intention of maiming someone. (No, not super deadly magic lethal techniques, but you're not allowed to elbow someone's brainstem in MMA, etc.)

Edit: Decades of experience with both forms and shadowboxing, since that's a requirement for this thread now.

 

[SAAMAG]

Wait....so gedan ashi barai isn't a low block?! Jodan, Uchi, and Soto uke aren't either? Shotei uke?! Was it all a lie?!

I know it's better in karate to "not be there"--but c'mon now--I'm pretty sure that even though many of the motions in forms are misunderstood or have multiple meanings to multiple people, that uke is still uke.

 

[Phlog]

Nice posts, you know who you are.

At the risk of treading a well worn dick path: The two are not in contention. It is false dichotomy to set them up in comparison.

One is a record of techniques, the other is conversation with oneself in the language of techniques.

 

[Azam]

I thought I'd remind some guys here - that not all forms are records of techniques - although most are - some forms were designed to supplement a specific part of training - a great example of this is Sanchin & Tensho - which I mention nearly every time this topic is brought up --- more so with Tensho - it's a form designed to strengthen the internal & improve coordinated breathing --- that's all it really does - it has limited bunkai or application - since it's not meant to be applied but to develop the internal - whereas Sanchin is used to develop the external.


It's the equivalent of chinese qigong - and funnily enough it works - any KK guy will tell you - that having strong muscles is partly the reason why we can take heavy punishment - the other part is because we focus on the internal/breathing which strengthens or makes are insides more resistant to receiving blows - nearly all KK curriculums focus to quite a degree on breathing techniques & internal exercises.

 

[Phlog]

Azam, in that case the form is a record of strengthening and conditioning techniques!


-shamelessly defending my position with sophistry-

 

[SanShou01]

Shadowboxing mimics how someone will fight. Fighting gyms such as MMA and Boxing, trains their students techniques that they would use in a real fight....and would then incorporate these techniques into their shadowboxing. Noobs don't just go making up shit when they shadowbox. We tell them to shadowbox what we've taught them.

Forms usually are based on traditions and made-up flowery mumbo jumbo that even though may be hundreds or thousands of years old, yet not necessarily a good idea in a real fight. Usually they aren't, and a waste of time. While you're wasting some Noob's time making him learn flowery dances and memorizing Asian terminology....his counterpart Noob at the MMA or Boxing gym is training and practicing on how to knock your Noob out.

There's little benefits in fighting when you, ie. practice such forms like hands down at the hips and throwing a punch from there with no points of defense. No beginner nor expert needs to learn nor train how to fight this way.

 

[ericPorkChop]

Shadowboxing mimics how someone will fight. Fighting gyms such as MMA and Boxing, trains their students techniques that they would use in a real fight....and would then incorporate these techniques into their shadowboxing. Noobs don't just go making up shit when they shadowbox. We tell them to shadowbox what we've taught them.

Forms usually are based on traditions and made-up flowery mumbo jumbo that even though may be hundreds or thousands of years old, yet not necessarily a good idea in a real fight. Usually they aren't, and a waste of time. While you're wasting some Noob's time making him learn flowery dances and memorizing Asian terminology....his counterpart Noob at the MMA or Boxing gym is training and practicing on how to knock your Noob out.

There's little benefits in fighting when you, ie. practice such forms like hands down at the hips and throwing a punch from there with no points of defense. No beginner nor expert needs to learn nor train how to fight this way.

Who'd you train sanshou under again?
The unique thing about sanshou is the strike counters into throws.
Most of these come directly from forms, as they are not found as such in other styles. Sanshou had these techniques from the get-go, and the sport doesn't pre-date the 1930s. That means either your coach, your coach's coach, or that coach's coach did all the heavy lifting for you, so you have the luxury of coming on here and being a noob. When you find out who it is that put in the grunt work to translate those techniques to gloves & a lei tai, you should kiss their feet and then go learn some new techniques from a flowery mumbo jumbo form so you can up your game.

 

[bowlie]

A form is seen as useless because its removed too far from what it is. See the forms are a record of the karate moves of the original art. So things like the low block are a throw, so when you do it as a block, it looses value. The movements are for self defense, so when you try to make the movements fit sport it runs into problems. For me, patterns work best simply as a way of remembering drills. In my karate class we will do drills based on the patterns, and then I can do the pattern to help reinforce the drill in my head. That said, im not a fan of bunkai based drills because although they look good, you cant do them with much resistance or power, and the moves generally cant be used in sparring, or at least aren't.

 

[peanut66]

heres a little food for thought ,

on another thread a member asked how others train beginners to box ,

a few other members chimed in and said the most important part is their stance and teaching them to move around and throw techiniques from that stance ,

guess what the primary focus of forms / patterns are .

although i am not a form enthusiast , it does have its place in martial arts .

to compare forms vs shadowboxing is what im not understanding , they are not the same. you can do forms and still shadowbox or work on your techiniques without having to do it as a preset form .

the main purpose for forms is to teach technique and used as a benchmark to test against for belt advancement in todays martial arts .

i shadow box a lot , but it doesnt look anything like a form / pattern

 

[DivineComedy]

Here's the thing, forms are ancient, archaic ways of passing on techniques (not all forms) which if that is what you are using it for, there are better ways to hold on to technique (DVDs, Youtube [definitely this one], really, your instructor should be able to extract the techniques out of the forms if he's been training long enough.

As for me, forms are wayyyy down on the priority list. Much more conditioning,stamina, 2-man drills and sparring of varying levels. Except for forms for a specific purpose such as Tensho like Azam stated above, I use that regularly as a staple.

Forms are for tradition, but doing every form in sequence works up a huge sweat and is a great workout. It does do what its intended to do. It's not different than any other routine.

Prior to Helio Gracie passing away, Chuck Norris asked him how he still practiced jiu-jitsu even at his age. He taught him a routine that covered the techniques and movements of jiu-jitsu. A la Forms.

Forms is a game of telephone in all honesty. You take the creator of a specific form, then pass it on to his student, then he passes on to a foreigner, the foreigner then takes it and changes it. (Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do), so on and so forth. Movements is important and while the sequence is confusing to the untrained eye.

For those who practice jiu jitsu, imagine watching practice a trap and roll escape by himself. Looks weird.

SAAMG is right. Uke is Uke. I like Karate because the focus of the movements have various application. It's versatile. It's a block, It's a strike, It's a grab, which is why forms are so bedfuddling and look like dancing. (Some orgs make it like dancing now.)

 

[SAAMAG]

In Changchuan styled forms...one of the things I never liked was that all the stances were extremely low, and all the kicks were very high; yet in application drills, the stances were not low and the kicks were not always high.

Asking one of the Sifu's about it, I was told that forms were done that way to "condition the body, build the lungs, promote flexibility and fluidity" or something like that. It was his opinion that the form sets actual applications were indeed hidden to many. He attributed this to teachers not fully teaching their system to everyone but a select few...keeping certain things secret for their own benefit. He said when those open-door students then went out to teach--they taught with an unknowingly incomplete knowledge of the said system. One the closed-door students only knew. Because of this, he said that each time a form is taught, it's like making a copy of a copy--and that some of the "print-quality" goes with each one. Knowledge of the original intent of the form gets lost even more as it's passed now.

Interesting point that seems to hold true with chinese systems, since historically it was prevalent for some teachers to hold out and only teach the inner workings to a select few who showed the right qualities. I don't know if Japanese taught this way however...but it's an interesting side-bar to this conversation which adds some fodder to the "value" equation of forms today.

 

[barnowl]

In Changchuan styled forms...one of the things I never liked was that all the stances were extremely low, and all the kicks were very high; yet in application drills, the stances were not low and the kicks were not always high.

Asking one of the Sifu's about it, I was told that forms were done that way to "condition the body, build the lungs, promote flexibility and fluidity" or something like that. It was his opinion that the form sets actual applications were indeed hidden to many. He attributed this to teachers not fully teaching their system to everyone but a select few...keeping certain things secret for their own benefit. He said when those open-door students then went out to teach--they taught with an unknowingly incomplete knowledge of the said system. One the closed-door students only knew. Because of this, he said that each time a form is taught, it's like making a copy of a copy--and that some of the "print-quality" goes with each one. Knowledge of the original intent of the form gets lost even more as it's passed now.

Interesting point that seems to hold true with chinese systems, since historically it was prevalent for some teachers to hold out and only teach the inner workings to a select few who showed the right qualities. I don't know if Japanese taught this way however...but it's an interesting side-bar to this conversation which adds some fodder to the "value" equation of forms today.

This is exactly the reason that one of the evaluation requirements in the chinese art I was taught was the "why" test. If you can't explain "why" something was done, it did not matter how good the the "how" was, you are considered not to know it yet. And even with us there was still a degree of open vs closed in the teaching. If you stayed long enough you can look back and see how much was really taught at the first level, but is totatlly invisible until after you come back to it from higher level.

 

[fluffball]

Some people are misunderstanding the idea that forms are a "library". It's not that anyone is going to just flat out forget a move (although I suppose it happens.) The idea is you learn a library of gross motor skills that have multiple applications. It's like so called "muscle memory".

Throwing a right hook, a straight right, and a right uppercut all use the same basic motion. So if you were to make a "form" for boxing, you would include that twisting motion repeatedly. I don't know about you guys, but I always warm up for boxing by going over that motion in slo-mo to make sure I've still got the form (pun intended) down.

 

[lyotoburger]

well, if you only shadowbox, your gonna get beat up in a fight.
if you only do forms, same

both work well........... forms sorta more on single techniques, whereas shadowboxing, more on rythm

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Because they seem to be two expressions of the same idea; that is, solo practice. You don't see too many TMAers shadowboxing and vice versa. I'm actually just curious why this is the case and the merits of either approach.

Actually, I have seen many TMAers shadowbox. I see them doing it before sparring class in preparation, and after when they are just practicing. I have done it myself also.

 

[SAAMAG]

well, if you only shadowbox, your gonna get beat up in a fight.
if you only do forms, same

both work well........... forms sorta more on single techniques, whereas shadowboxing, more on rythm

I wouldn't say that as a definitive. There are too many variables to consider. Not to mention that there are a great many professional fighters who do quite well not doing forms.

 

[SingleSpeed]

Questions like this should be prefaced with the following questions before the ignorant types feel like they can reply in confidence.

- What specific/verifiable experience do you have?
-How old were you when you achieved that experience (meaning you can't take kids karate and act like you studied anything or act like your experience is real)?


The question was posed properly by requesting a pros/cons yet all people do is spew garbage. He didn't ask for better or worse answere because that allows morons to speak. He asked for pros/cons. Here are mine:

First, we take this apologetic perspective regarding karate. Whether private practice is as "good" as shadowboxing. I thing that is a false premise. There are so many ways to practice both shadow boxing and karate. Most people I watch (pros and ammys - not hobbyists) do kickboxing shadow boxing at some shortened punch and underestimated fashion. They throw slowish punches, make the swoosh, swoosh sound, their stance is different than how they actually fight. They do the same movement over and over and hardly ever consider defensive movement. It is all some mindnumb offense display. It is not the problem of the exercise known as shadowboxing. The way most people do it, I just can not see much benefit. It is the limitation of the practitioner.

Karate practice has less to do with the practical nature of the techniques specifically in kata. Also to be clear, my style is a hard style (as opposed to soft). We have very little techniques with flowing circular movement. Most things are short, fast and emphasize power. That is where my karate knowledge exists and the reaso I use it for conditioning my body for power, speed and endurance.

I like to do shadow boxing to warm up and get loose only. I could do shadow boxing for conditioning for way longer than I could do karate practice. For my private practice I start the katas that I know well (over 20). I start slow with the lower rank ones but after three or four I am going full power, full speed and full focus. It closely resembled the physical demands of a fast paced fight and it takes me about 25 minutes. I don't stop as I go from one to the other. I have not been able to find that experience in shadowboxing. I am not under any false beliefs that kata makes me bad ass (to the guy who said that - you have little understanding of how that comment makes you sound - your issue for saying it).

Then I stretch for more demanding kicking and allow my body to recover. Then I do blackbelt promotion basics that include sweeps, jump kicks, sparring drills, movement and counters,... That takes another 20 minutes and is full speed and full power.

So, I have done 45 minutes of conditioning that includes absolute all-out training of my body to throw and handle the demands of 100% speed and power. As a result, I trained my conditioning to not fail as fast because I trained at such a high threshold for the length of a fight. I used spinning kicks, jumping kicks, tactical moves, simulated full speed sparring drills, movement and that makes be better athletically than what shadowboxing give me (I am not talking about athletic conditioning, this is specifically high level of conditioning by using fighting techniques).

Karate kata techniques are not things I would do in a kickboxing match but the DEMANDS of training HARD is my advantage. I am very fast for 46 years old and 6'4". I keep my speed from training speed. Karate basics are moves I would include in kickboxing and I am doing them from a deep stance. Deep stances develop power, are hard to move in so when you ar in a fighting stance you are way faster. Finally power comes much from technique and timing. I do hundreds of techniques in every self-practice. I save bag work for kickboxing so I still hit things. I don't do speed bag work because the way I fight, it does not work. I do reaction bag work though.

- How many people do shadowboxing full speed and full power (who is developing 0 to 100 with no telegraphing regularly)?

A final question is whether you could do shadow boxing with the same benefits that I get from karate. I supect you can and I suspect some people are (just not most here).

Seriously, there is such a shit mentality here and it is always from people who do not have any idea of what they are talking about. In the old days, those people would sit off to the side and listen to what other people had to say. Now, they watch a Youtube video and they are an expert.

I will probably get knocked for my tone. I could care less about any attitude I delivered this with because my post is rooted in experience and not some complete dismissal of a training approach rooted in being a dope.

my candidate for post of the year!

You really motivated me to go back to kata-practice.
Unfortunately I haven't practiced kata in a long time. So I won't be able to go 100% for quite a while.

 

[SingleSpeed]

Wait....so gedan ashi barai isn't a low block?! Jodan, Uchi, and Soto uke aren't either? Shotei uke?! Was it all a lie?!

I know it's better in karate to "not be there"--but c'mon now--I'm pretty sure that even though many of the motions in forms are misunderstood or have multiple meanings to multiple people, that uke is still uke.

The way I learned it the blocks consist of two parts. The "wind-up" and the "block". In beginner's training it is just that you wind up then you block.

In advanced training the "wind up" is the block or rather the parry and the "block" is the counter.

For example the wind up fpr gedan barai where you reach all the way across your own shoulder is the parry. The actual block, which can also be used to deflect a front kick, would than be a counter hammer-strike to the groin.

It can also be an unbalancing move as shown here at about 1:25

[YT]B3RJoTLfcwg[/YT]

( warning some of this stuff is serious bullshido)