shamrock vs liddell

[Roukas]

We saw shamrock Ortiz maybe shamrock liddel could be another huge pay per view ????

 

[Bobby Boulders]

I don't think it would be very big. The last Shamrock/Gracie fight wasn't that big, and it was on free TV. And Shamrock is as well known as any MMA fighter there has ever been. There may still be interest in Liddell, we don't know yet. But there isn't really any interest in Shamrock.

 

[2004 account]

Have an old timers ball tourney

Let Ken shamrock, Lidell, royce and Don Frye battle it out for a million dollars


(proceeds go towards the 'let's get a new hip for Mark Coleman foundation')

 

[ggtopdog]

I don't think it would be very big. The last Shamrock/Gracie fight wasn't that big, AMD it was on free TV. And Shamrock is as well known as any MMA fighter there has ever been. There may still be interest in Liddell, we don't know yet. But there isn't really any interest in Shamrock.

The last shamrock gracie fight was one of the highest viewed bellator cards of all time....

 

[Bobby Boulders]

The last shamrock gracie fight was one of the highest viewed bellator cards of all time....

That was a Kimbo card, bud. Kimbo holds the biggest ratings for any MMA fighter in the west. No one cared about Shamrock/Gracie. The entire population of Dade County cared about Kimbo/Dada.

 

[ThunderL1ps]

Even less people would pay to watch Ken at this point. He is not trustworthy to even give a fight, let alone show up based on his recent history.

Dan Henderson facing the winner is the only logical follow up with either Chuck or Tito. I don't know if Henderson still has a contract with the UFC or if he would be willing to fight. Would either fighter be willing to fight Hendo?

I have no idea how Golden Boy follows up the Liddlell/Ortiz event or if they will even want to. The MMA brand doesn't look like it was planned out with a well thought out long-term vision on the surface. It seems more like a one and done type situation.

 

[Roukas]

That was a Kimbo card, bud. Kimbo holds the biggest ratings for any MMA fighter in the west. No one cared about Shamrock/Gracie. The entire population of Dade County cared about Kimbo/Dada.

Shamrock headlined over kimbo lolllll

 

[RichardPriors]

Frank?

 

[mirko>anyone]

Even less people would pay to watch Ken at this point. He is not trustworthy to even give a fight, let alone show up based on his recent history.

Dan Henderson facing the winner is the only logical follow up with either Chuck or Tito. I don't know if Henderson still has a contract with the UFC or if he would be willing to fight. Would either fighter be willing to fight Hendo?

I have no idea how Golden Boy follows up the Liddlell/Ortiz event or if they will even want to. The MMA brand doesn't look like it was planned out with a well thought out long-term vision on the surface. It seems more like a one and done type situation.

Hendong would badly knock the shit outta all those guys. Not that I would mind watching that unfold.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

Shamrock headlined over kimbo lolllll

Pretty much a case of Bellator realizing that Kimbo/Dada had a huge chance of being a dud. Not to mention greater America/world at large having no clue who Dada even is. But they knew Florida would tune in for that fight, and that many others would simply bc it was Kimbo, and that a lot of people would be like, "Oh, hell. Shamrock/Gracie is next. I remember those guys."

You'd think it was inept of Bellator, not making Kimbo the main event, considering his track record of bringing in huge numbers, but they used him to bring those numbers in as a co-main and banked on people sticking around for the old timers, and it worked.

 

[AronaBeatsJones]

Back in 2006, I thought Ken Shamrock was going to win the Ortiz bout(s) and would've fought Liddell at UFC 66.

 

[Hellhammer84]

Poor Ken would've been better off staying in mma throughout the 90s instead of going to wwe. Came back with his body at 30% and all his wwe money pissed away. Prob wouldnt have achieved the way Couture did at a later age but wouldve certainly won alot of the fights he lost

 

[Hellhammer84]

Back in 2006, I thought Ken Shamrock was going to win the Ortiz bout(s) and would've fought Liddell at UFC 66.

Yea I tried convincing myself of that one too. I think I just disliked Tito that much at the time and the fact Shamrock was a legend of the sport it just seemed like the perfect story for the old guy to come back on top for the rematch. Of course after UFC 61 I was shown once and for all that life is no fairy tale and hindsight being 20/20, Tito isn't such a bad dude. Yeah he says some dumb shit at times and was obnoxious with his gravedigger antics but at the end of the day hes just another dude trying to provide for his family just like the rest of us

 

[AronaBeatsJones]

Poor Ken would've been better off staying in mma throughout the 90s instead of going to wwe. Came back with his body at 30% and all his wwe money pissed away. Prob wouldnt have achieved the way Couture did at a later age but wouldve certainly won alot of the fights he lost

I would absolutely love a documentary on Ken Shamrock's finances, and how he managed to lose it all. The guy should've retired a multimillionaire from his WWE / Pride / later UFC runs, but is forced to take bar brawl fights in his fifties.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Poor Ken would've been better off staying in mma throughout the 90s instead of going to wwe. Came back with his body at 30% and all his wwe money pissed away. Prob wouldnt have achieved the way Couture did at a later age but wouldve certainly won alot of the fights he lost

Yes and no. I wrote a few long posts about Ken's skill in the 90's, like this one, and noted later in that same topic that being a roided-up 225 pounder, much larger and stronger than most of his opponents, and being a decent wrestler was enough to have good success back then, despite terrible, piddly GnP and awful striking.

Now, when Ken came back in the early 2000s, his knees were shot and he couldn't wrestle well anymore, AND his cardio sucked. However, his striking had improved a lot, and he could actually throw some hard punches, even if his hand-speed and technique were still lacking.

Now, if Ken hadn't gone to pro wrestling in 1996, how would he have done?

Mark Coleman, who he wisely avoided, would have smashed Ken to pieces, better striking or not. Don Frye in his prime would have won a far more convincing victory over that version of Shamrock than he did in the early 2000s, when BOTH men had shot knees from pro wrestling and couldn't grapple, but Shamrock's striking had improved. Vitor Belfort would have certainly knocked Ken out quickly.

A Maurice Smith who learned takedown defense would have beaten Ken, too.

Now, I do think Ken would have beaten Tank Abbott and he would have probably won a boring decision against Marco Ruas. Gary Goodridge is a 50/50 match. Certainly, Goodridge can be beaten by lay-and-pray, which would be Ken's path to victory. However, Goodridge would also be the biggest, strongest guy with the best takedown defense that Ken would ever lay-and-pray if that were to occur.

In terms of the guys Ken actually faced from the 2000s onwards? Yeah, he probably wins a few of the fights he lost, like the one against Fujita, but comparing him to Couture is silly.

Couture was just a vastly better mixed martial artist in every regard. Way better wrestling, way better GnP, better striking (Couture's boxing was always underrated), and arguably better submissions, since Couture didn't give up dominant position to go for them the way that Ken did.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

I would absolutely love a documentary on Ken Shamrock's finances, and how he managed to lose it all. The guy should've retired a multimillionaire from his WWE / Pride / later UFC runs, but is forced to take bar brawl fights in his fifties.

I know that Ken lost a ton of money through his various divorces as well as irresponsible investments and purchases, but yeah, he certainly earned millions.

He made a ton of money in 90's UFC, Pancrase, his non-WWE pro wrestling, and his acting career, too. In the documentary Choke, Todd Hayes' coach claimed that Ken had made at least $250,000 all the way back in 1994.

 

[Hellhammer84]

Yes and no. I wrote a few long posts about Ken's skill in the 90's, like this one, and noted later in that same topic that being a roided-up 225 pounder, much larger and stronger than most of his opponents, and being a decent wrestler was enough to have good success back then, despite terrible, piddly GnP and awful striking.

Now, when Ken came back in the early 2000s, his knees were shot and he couldn't wrestle well anymore, AND his cardio sucked. However, his striking had improved a lot, and he could actually throw some hard punches, even if his hand-speed and technique were still lacking.

Now, if Ken hadn't gone to pro wrestling in 1996, how would he have done?

Mark Coleman, who he wisely avoided, would have smashed Ken to pieces, better striking or not. Don Frye in his prime would have won a far more convincing victory over that version of Shamrock than he did in the early 2000s, when BOTH men had shot knees from pro wrestling and couldn't grapple, but Shamrock's striking had improved. Vitor Belfort would have certainly knocked Ken out quickly.

A Maurice Smith who learned takedown defense would have beaten Ken, too.

Now, I do think Ken would have beaten Tank Abbott and he would have probably won a boring decision against Marco Ruas. Gary Goodridge is a 50/50 match. Certainly, Goodridge can be beaten by lay-and-pray, which would be Ken's path to victory. However, Goodridge would also be the biggest, strongest guy with the best takedown defense that Ken would ever lay-and-pray if that were to occur.

In terms of the guys Ken actually faced from the 2000s onwards? Yeah, he probably wins a few of the fights he lost, like the one against Fujita, but comparing him to Couture is silly.

Couture was just a vastly better mixed martial artist in every regard. Way better wrestling, way better GnP, better striking (Couture's boxing was always underrated), and arguably better submissions, since Couture didn't give up dominant position to go for them the way that Ken did.

In no way did I imply Shamrock wouldve compared to Couture. If anything I implied opposite. You have great points though

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

In no way did I imply Shamrock wouldve compared to Couture. If anything I implied opposite.

Yep, my mistake. I misread wouldnt as would.

Speaking of Ortiz vs. Shamrock, it's interesting you were still rooting for Ken in 2006. I was rooting for him in 2002 versus Tito, but after TUF 3, where Ken did a horrendous job of coaching his team while focusing on himself and reliving past glories (including wasting an entire training session on having his team watch his first fight against Kimo), while Tito did a fine job training his guys and genuinely caring about their successes and failures, I was perfectly happy with the obvious outcome.

 

[Hellhammer84]

Yep, my mistake. I misread wouldnt as would.

Speaking of Ortiz vs. Shamrock, it's interesting you were still rooting for Ken in 2006. I was rooting for him in 2002 versus Tito, but after TUF 3, where Ken did a horrendous job of coaching his team while focusing on himself and reliving past glories (including wasting an entire training session on having his team watch his first fight against Kimo), while Tito did a fine job training his guys and genuinely caring about their successes and failures, I was perfectly happy with the obvious outcome.

Yeah Im not sure what I was thinking either looking back. Ken did a horrendous job for tuf 3. I know it's edited to look a certain way for tv but when you have Tito constantly working his guys while Kens guys were playing mini golf and having to watch old highlight videos of Kens old fights instead of training, it's not a good look. It blew my mind cause all the stories of guys who trained from the Lions Den were always balls to the wall

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Yeah Im not sure what I was thinking either looking back. Ken did a horrendous job for tuf 3. I know it's edited to look a certain way for tv but when you have Tito constantly working his guys while Kens guys were playing mini golf and having to watch old highlight videos of Kens old fights instead of training, it's not a good look. It blew my mind cause all the stories of guys who trained from the Lions Den were always balls to the wall

The best part is that instead of a BJJ coach, Ken brought in a bodybuilding coach instead! Too funny.

The Lion's Den really sucked, and was responsible for hurting/ruining the careers of some very talented fighters. Guys who trained there were notorious for awful cardio and getting injured (thanks to the Lion's Den moronic methods), while not evolving their striking, wrestling, or BJJ.

I often think of what an all-time great Mikey Burnett would have been with a proper team and if he hadn't gotten Ken's sister pregnant. Or how much better Guy Mezger (already a good fighter) would have been if he had started training with Miletich circa 2000.

I mean, Guy Mezger was THAT close to beating Chuck Liddell in his prime.