SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 102: A Clockwork Orange

Sure, sexual violence involves dominance

We need to watch From Beyond sometime.

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Yeah, the author sees a larger problem in society and appears highly political. Not sure they ever give any reasons for the turmoil and decaying of morals. Is it in response to the government growing fascist or is the fascism a result?

See, much of this theme of facism and societal impact was not in the book but added in the film. Which makes me think it was Kubrick trying to point to something. But as we all know -- Kubrick was always playing 4-dimensional chess with his movies.

The author -- Anthony Burgess -- had more of a "catholic original sin" perspective. Man is a violent, sinful and ignorant animal. Alex basically grows out of his evil urges. That's why we need to have sympaty for people -- because of their incompleteness. The nadsat speech in the novel was actually a result of subliminal Communist propeganda which isn't present in the film (and that's a quite scary thought in and of itself, that an outside power can pervert your culture through subliminal messages -- and it also carries the message that their perpensity towards violence could also be the result of subliminal messages).

So, with Kubrick's emphasis of these themes -- I just think it a natural direction to go towards.

really don't know how you assume Deltoid was sexually abusing kids

Well it's not just the junk-grabbing. It's his whole body-language. His whole way of acting. It just oozes sexual malevolence and pervertedness. But I have no concrete evidence, of course.

And must I also point out that his spittle looks a lot like a cum-shot?:D

9.5/10? Was there not enough nudity in this or something? :(:D

Nah just didn't rilley up me guzzards to that lofty extent.

But 9.5 is an extremely high score from me. I've given only about 20 or so movies a perfect 10/10 of all the films I've seen -- which according to IMDB is 4.000. So Clockwork Orange is still in my top 50 of all time.
 
We need to watch From Beyond sometime.

MV5BYjc3ZjQ4YWQtNGFlOS00YmZiLTllZDctYTM3MDNmMTY4N2VjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTQxNzMzNDI@._V1_UX182_CR0,0,182,268_AL_.jpg




See, much of this theme of facism and societal impact was not in the book but added in the film. Which makes me think it was Kubrick trying to point to something. But as we all know -- Kubrick was always playing 4-dimensional chess with his movies.

The author -- Anthony Burgess -- had more of a "catholic original sin" perspective. Man is a violent, sinful and ignorant animal. Alex basically grows out of his evil urges. That's why we need to have sympaty for people -- because of their incompleteness. The nadsat speech in the novel was actually a result of subliminal Communist propeganda which isn't present in the film (and that's a quite scary thought in and of itself, that an outside power can pervert your culture through subliminal messages -- and it also carries the message that their perpensity towards violence could also be the result of subliminal messages).

So, with Kubrick's emphasis of these themes -- I just think it a natural direction to go towards.



Well it's not just the junk-grabbing. It's his whole body-language. His whole way of acting. It just oozes sexual malevolence and pervertedness. But I have no concrete evidence, of course.

And must I also point out that his spittle looks a lot like a cum-shot?:D



Nah just didn't rilley up me guzzards to that lofty extent.

But 9.5 is an extremely high score from me. I've given only about 20 or so movies a perfect 10/10 of all the films I've seen -- which according to IMDB is 4.000. So Clockwork Orange is still in my top 50 of all time.

Loved me some From Beyond back in the day. When blondie gets into her S&M outfit. Oh my! I need a fourth movie for a gore-themed week. Had considered Re-Animator and forgot about From Beyond. Not sure it'll work, but it's a candidate. Thanks.

I thought I read where Burgess said his book was partly in response to what was seen as rising violence in society at the time. But again, it's been at least 20 years since I've read it. From my recollection though, Burgess didn't paint any happier picture of society. I definitely don't remember the communist propaganda aspect. I'd have to agree with Kubrick that it wouldn't have added anything to his film.

lol at the spittle. Apparently the actor ran out of spit so other people from the cast/crew took turns spitting on McDowell.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your perfect 10's?
 
I thought I read where Burgess said his book was partly in response to what was seen as rising violence in society at the time.

Yeah. I meant that his way of dealing with said question was more rooted in his Catholic perspective.

I definitely don't remember the communist propaganda aspect.

Quote from wikipedia -- I misremembered it as Communist when they actually said Slav. This is the only mention of it though.

"Quaint," said Dr. Brodsky, like smiling, "the dialect of the tribe. Do you know anything of its provenance, Branom?" "Odd bits of old rhyming slang," said Dr. Branom ... "A bit of gipsy talk, too. But most of the roots are Slav Propaganda. Subliminal penetration."


lol at the spittle. Apparently the actor ran out of spit so other people from the cast/crew took turns spitting on McDowell.

Sometimes acting and porn acting seem virtually indistinguishable, Joe.

Out of curiosity, what are some of your perfect 10's?

These are the ones I have on IMDB. Of course, I always second-guess my ranking when I see this list.

Stalker
Seven Samurai
The Thing
Shane
Once Upon A Time in the West
Sword of Doom
The Blood of Heroes
In A Lonely Place
She (1984)
2001
Blade Runner
Starship Troopers
Silence
Full Metal Jacket
Montey Pyton and the Holy Grail
12 Angry Men
Dr Strangelove
Dredd
Suspiria
Mad Max 2

Alright... now what's your top ten?
 
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Yeah. I meant that his way of dealing with said question was more rooted in his Catholic perspective.



Quote from wikipedia -- I misremembered it as Communist when they actually said Slav. This is the only mention of it though.

"Quaint," said Dr. Brodsky, like smiling, "the dialect of the tribe. Do you know anything of its provenance, Branom?" "Odd bits of old rhyming slang," said Dr. Branom ... "A bit of gipsy talk, too. But most of the roots are Slav Propaganda. Subliminal penetration."




Sometimes acting and porn acting seem virtually indistinguishable, Joe.



These are the ones I have on IMDB. Of course, I always second-guess my ranking when I see this list.

Stalker
Seven Samurai
The Thing
Shane
Once Upon A Time in the West
Sword of Doom
The Blood of Heroes
In A Lonely Place
She (1984)
2001
Blade Runner
Starship Troopers
Silence
Full Metal Jacket
Montey Pyton and the Holy Grail
12 Angry Men
Dr Strangelove
Dredd
Suspiria
Mad Max 2

Alright... now what's your top ten?

Was Burgess fairly religious? Might explain why the priest is the moral voice in the film, if that's the way he wrote it in the book.

Commie. Slav. Same shit. :D

Are you bringing up Caligula again? :cool:

Thanks for the list. Awesome to see so much Kubrick on there. Crazy you've got Full Metal Jacket as a better film. I could see it if the entire movie was as compelling as the first half. People seem to lose their shit over 2001 so I can't disagree in the scheme of things. But I found it a little too slow. Strangelove was ok to me. FMJ was the only one of those I've wanted to watch more than once. And having viewed it a few times I'm confident in saying it's all-time top 3-5 war movies. It's nowhere near the cultural icon that A Clockwork Orange is though. Oh, and you misspelled Life of Brian.
 
Me and a buddy used to take acid and watch Clockwork in high school.
One of my favorite films, droogies
 
The beginning of this film strikes as highly confident. The screen goes entirely red as the music starts. There's no opening credits, commonplace now, but unusual at the time, just the Warner Bros. name, A Stanley Kubrick Production, and the title. Then our protagonist is staring right at us. Right away we're confronted with this handsome, charismatic, violent, psychopathic, sexual predator. And he seems to be the only one who notices us. In classic Kubrick fashion the camera holds for a long moment before slowly panning back revealing the full setting. Alex's friends look more absent minded, they don't notice the camera. To drive this point home Alex speaks directly too us.

As an aside, I really like the music here. In case anyone was wondering, it's a piece called Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary, written by English Baroque composer Henry Purcell in 1695. The introductory march was rearranged and performed on synthesizers by Wendy Carlos for the film.

Here's the original version:



and the film version:

 
Are you bringing up Caligula again? :cool:

EDIT: Meaning Burgess not Kubrick

He was a lapsed Catholic in the same vein that Martin Scorsese and George R Martin. In that he didn't have any "real" faith but the various dogmas and viewpoints are so deeply embeded in him that he can't help but to let them operate him.

That's a subset of filmmakers that I think are very interesting. Buncha lapsed Catholics that just feel compelled to structure their movies after the Catholic moral decrees. Scorsese, Abel Ferrara, Hitchcock, etc.

Are you bringing up Caligula again? :cool:

FUCK MAN! Michael McDowell literally says "Dressed in the heights of Roman fashion"! Do you know how difficult it has been not to mention Caligula up until now!?

What if Caligula was all an fantasy by Alex DeLarge as he was day-dreaming in the prison library!?:eek:

Awesome to see so much Kubrick on there

Kubrick films have a gigantic leg-up in just how extremely fascinating they are. I just spend hours wondering about them, trying to analyse and deconstruct them as if day-dreaming. I've gotten a lot out of Kubrick films just doing that (which is one of my favorite novels)

Funnily enough, Clockwork Orange might be one of the ones I've wondered about the least. But that might just be because I read the novel before I watched the film.

People seem to lose their shit over 2001 so I can't disagree in the scheme of things. But I found it a little too slow.

2001 is probably one of the films I'm considering demoting to a 9.5 (the other being Mad Max 2).

Considering replacing it with something like Barry Lyndon or Metropolis.

Oh, and you misspelled Life of Brian.

tenor.gif
 
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The beginning of this film strikes as highly confident. The screen goes entirely red as the music starts. There's no opening credits, commonplace now, but unusual at the time, just the Warner Bros. name, A Stanley Kubrick Production, and the title. Then our protagonist is staring right at us. Right away we're confronted with this handsome, charismatic, violent, psychopathic, sexual predator. And he seems to be the only one who notices us. In classic Kubrick fashion the camera holds for a long moment before slowly panning back revealing the full setting. Alex's friends look more absent minded, they don't notice the camera. To drive this point home Alex speaks directly too us.

As an aside, I really like the music here. In case anyone was wondering, it's a piece called Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary, written by English Baroque composer Henry Purcell in 1695. The introductory march was rearranged and performed on synthesizers by Wendy Carlos for the film.

Here's the original version:



and the film version:



The opening scene really is great. The omenous music, the closeup of Alex, the slow reveal of the setting that lets you know you're in for something entirely different. Then the warm and inviting narration. Magnificent stuff.


He was a lapsed Catholic in the same vein that Martin Scorsese and George R Martin. In that he didn't have any "real" faith but the various dogmas and viewpoints are so deeply embeded in him that he can't help but to let them operate him.

That's a subset of filmmakers that I think are very interesting. Buncha lapsed Catholics that just feel compelled to structure their movies after the Catholic moral decrees. Scorsese, Abel Ferrara, Hitchcock, etc.



FUCK MAN! Michael McDowell literally says "Dressed in the heights of Roman fashion"! Do you know how difficult it has been not to mention Caligula up until now!?

What if Caligula was all an fantasy by Alex DeLarge as he was day dreaming in the prison library!?:eek:



Kubrick films have a gigantic leg-up in just how extremely fascinating they are. I just spend hours wondering about them, trying to analyse and deconstruct them as if day-dreaming. I've gotten a lot out of Kubrick films just doing that.

Funnily enough, Clockwork Orange might be one of the ones I've wondered about the least. But that might just be because I read the novel before I watched the film.



2001 is probably one of the films I'm considering demoting to a 9.5 (the other being Mad Max 2).

Considering replacing it with something like Barry Lyndon or Metropolis.



tenor.gif


Glad I wasn't raised religious.

Alex dreaming Caligula while in prison is a great idea. Too bad they didn't go that route. Well, that and have Kubrick direct it.

I need to watch Barry Lyndon. I've got zero interest in period pieces though.
 
In terms of removing the last chapter(or rather preferring the US version without it he first read) I think your really highlighting Kubrick's nature from at least Strangelove onwards. He's really not someone looking to push what he views as a "correct message" so much as he is a cynic being critical of what he views as societies ill's.

I think that's probably most clear in Clockwork Orange as it arguably has the widest view of society of any Kubrick film and takes aim at pretty much everyone. There's not really a side to root for here for me, the establishment that created a dystopia then looks to first take away Alex's free will then potentially looses him on society again when its politically expedient, the opposition that's only interested in using him as a political tool and then turns on him for personal revenge and Alex himself who represents individualism taken to a selfish extreme.

Don't think that's nihilism so much as simply choosing to focus on the critical outlook.
 
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He was a lapsed Catholic
I don't believe that's accurate. His ancestors were Austrian, Polish, and Romanian Jews.

from wiki:

Although his parents had been married in a Jewish ceremony, Kubrick did not have a religious upbringing, and would later profess an atheistic view of the universe.[9]
 
I don't believe that's accurate. His ancestors were Austrian, Polish, and Romanian Jews.

from wiki:

I was refeering to the author of the book -- Anthony Burgess.

Now I noticed I quoted the wrong segement of Cubo's post when I wrote that:D
 
Anybody want to take a crack at this specific shot?

It's just one random shot in the whole film but I was like, What in the actual fuck?


ZLcNQU.gif
 
Anybody want to take a crack at this specific shot?

It's just one random shot in the whole film but I was like, What in the actual fuck?


ZLcNQU.gif


I agree, that actor hammed it up more than the others. Kubrick seemed to want a bit of overacting though. I guess that's the satire aspect.
 
Anybody want to take a crack at this specific shot?

It's just one random shot in the whole film but I was like, What in the actual fuck?

The radio just informed him that the judges gave it to Machida.
 
However, it seems that the same is true for policemen. Alex's Droogs manage to become cops despite being known as violent delinquents. And once in uniform -- they are at liberty to torture Alex without seeming much fear of reprimands or punishment. Swell justice system, huh?
Mr. Alexander says that "the police often bring their victims to the outskirts of our village."
The best use of slow motion in film history?

It's contrasted nicely with the sped up threesome scene just prior to the initial confrontation. Sped up footage is inherently comical, while slow motion is inherently dramatic.
I once had a debate with somebody that this movie lost best picture to The French Connection, and while I think French Connection is a solid film, I don't think it touches A Clockwork Orange, and I argued that even back then, the Academy Awards were out of touch. What do you guys think? A Clockwork Orange or The French Connection?
I really like the French Connection, I think it's a great movie. But I'd pick A Clockwork Orange over it easily.
 
Shouldn't we have a ranking of Kubrick movies? We did Spielberg as an example, but since a Kubrick film won the battle royale, and he's now tied with Aronofsky as the most featured director in this club, I feel we should do a ranking of Kubrick movies. He only made 13 so may as well rank whatever you've seen rather than a top 10.

13. Fear and Desire
12. Killer's Kiss
11. Spartacus
10. Lolita
9. The Killing
8. Paths of Glory
7. The Shining
6. Eyes Wide Shut
5. Full Metal Jacket
4. A Clockwork Orange
3. 2001
2. Dr. Strangelove
1. Barry Lyndon
 
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