SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 110: Zodiac

Am I understanding this correctly?


Pretty much. There's other fun stuff too. Like the 1986 raw Graysmith solution to the 340 cipher. To the right and above of "see a name" in line four is "theo".

zodiac10.jpg



This unsolved part of the 408 cipher has just the right amount of letters.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...-possible-kaczynski-zodiac-connection.124730/


I know you like Allen as the Zodiac. My problem is he's a pedophile and it wouldn't make sense he'd be out killing couples on lover's lane. Fits Ted's sexual confusion and ineptitude much better.
 
Pretty much. There's other fun stuff too. Like the 1986 raw Graysmith solution to the 340 cipher. To the right and above of "see a name" in line four is "theo".

zodiac10.jpg



This unsolved part of the 408 cipher has just the right amount of letters.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...-possible-kaczynski-zodiac-connection.124730/


I know you like Allen as the Zodiac. My problem is he's a pedophile and it wouldn't make sense he'd be out killing couples on lover's lane. Fits Ted's sexual confusion and ineptitude much better.

Well yea I liked Allen until I found out all this shit today. It so strange how the signature of Ted's crimes, not to be confused with the M.O., is so consistent throughout the careers of these 3 serial killers. His signature is wood, and nature, and mountains, shit like that and it, as I keep using this word, is inexplicable. Its his intelligence level that keeps fucking with me because no regular person could ever pull off something like this over such a long period. The mapping of the Zodiac killings and the Tylenol killings being mirrored and the same shape seems like something out of a Batman movie. This is Joker level shit.

All of the targets for the Zodiac, Tylenol, and Unabomber killings were to people and locations with names like Wood, Forest, Grove, Lake, Mountain, Field, Arbor. He talked in his journals of economic terrorism so why choose Tylenol? I don't know but the middle names of both the CEO's of Johnson and Johnson was Wood. The Unabomber enclosed his bombs in wood boxes. The guys "signature" is nature, i.e., the opposite of the technological society.

This seems like a criminal profilers wet dream and it makes me wonder why none of them have put this together. Sometimes though, in the internet age, places like reddit, 4chan, youtube, etc. actually solve crimes that the authorities were unable to solve just through the brute strength of numbers.
 
The mapping of the Zodiac killings and the Tylenol killings being mirrored and the same shape seems like something out of a Batman movie. This is Joker level shit.

I was totally on board with Ted years ago and only saw that mirror image mapping recently. It's definitely super evil genius shit. Unless someone can dispute those locations or show some important locales omitted it's hard to blow that off as coincidence. Like how there's a watch called Zodiac with the same symbol and on the wrist of ALA, except crazy math shit. And for the record, it still fucks with me that this existed before the crimes.


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He talked in his journals of economic terrorism so why choose Tylenol?


That's a tough one. Let's say thought that what's important is the cyanide (due to the local environmental damage), not the Tylenol, then it comes down to delivery mechanisms. At that point there might not be much significance. But there's this.

http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=27

So there seems to be a pattern of placing the tampered Tylenol at sites with wood, trees and mountain themes, just as we know Kaczynski selected bombing targets with similar names. We can also ask why was Tylenol chosen? There are of course many makers of pain killers and headache relief pills. Keeping in mind that the FBI believed Kaczynski selected bombing victims in part because of their names, such as Percy WOOD and Leroy WOOD Bearson, the founders of the Johnson & Johnson company were Robert WOOD Johnson and James WOOD Johnson.

I may have read something more concrete than that, but would need to stumble across it again to remember.

Here's a potential dry-run close to home.

Another very interesting element pointing to Kaczynski is the death of Jay Mitchell, age 19, of Sheridan Wyoming, on July 26, 1982. The coroner reported he had the same level of cyanide in his body as the Chicago area victims. Though he had no Tylenol in his body, it is thought that the killer emptied all of the Tylenol product out of the capsules before he put in the cyanide. His family states he did take Tylenol just before his death, and that it was probably purchased at the local Jewel-Osco outlet.

What is interesting is that the highway bus route from the Kaczynski cabin in Lincoln Montana to the Chicago area happens to run right through Sheridan Wyoming. In his journal Kaczynski mentioned not wanting to commit any major crimes in Montana because people might remember him riding the bus that day. If he wanted to do a "test run" to see if the cyanide filled Tylenol capsules worked, but wanted a victim outside the state of Montana, Sheridan Wyoming is the first town across the border on the way to Chicago. See attachment.

The guys "signature" is nature, i.e., the opposite of the technological society.

It's impossible to deny those connections between the three cases. I have a hard time believing that if you took any other high-profile serial killing you'd be able to produce a similar pattern. So yeah, signature vs. M.O.
 
@MusterX

Like Graysmith pushing Allen, I know I'm pushing Ted. So let me toss a wrench in and explain my 2nd pick (of the known suspects).

Do we believe Z also did the Riverside crime? If not, the case for Ted strengthens. If so, then there's a suspect named Ross Sullivan who is the leading candidate in the Bates murder. I kinda want to dismiss it, but Z claimed it (him being a liar notwithstanding) and the letters are eerily similar.

Bates killer sent three letters at once (sound familiar?) to the police, paper, and family of the victim. Notice the double postage.


rpdenvelope.gif


21_riv10.jpg


Riverside_Press_Enterprise_envelope.jpg




Then here's the initial Zodiac envelopes.


340envelopefront.gif


Zodiac%20Letters%20Image.jpg



Hard to believe those Bates killer's envelopes were printed so hard to believe it's a coincidence. So if this is the first killing then it makes sense that (based on the work of John Douglas) that the killer knew the victim. Then they move on to strangers after they bust their cherry. Applying that concept to ALA, he's potentially connected to the chick in the 3rd instance of homicide so it seems far less significant. Sullivan's time line could work with Zodiac too, but his whereabouts during the Northern California crimes are uncertain. But he was in an institution beginning 1971 and got out in 1974. Then died around 1978 (I think).
 
As usual, I think Fitch is a master of using camerawork and editing. Look how he speedily shifts between locals and characters, doing so-so to keep the pace flowing and the information fresh. On the camera work, man, the movie is just expertly done. Notice for example, when the three policemen first interview Arthur Leight, how right when they grow suspicious of him, the camera starts focusing straight at the faces, instead of at a sidewards angel (as is usually done), so to accentuate the tension of the scene (Silence of the Lambs prolifically used this technique too). Or when Gyllenhall is arguing with his wife about his obsessions, the camera rarely if ever joins their faces in the frame. The camera often focuses on the wife, with Gyllenhall hectically doing something out of frame, so to communicate their estrangement from one-another. Subtle, common, tricks like that really accentuate the tension and atmosphere of the film.

I agree. I was also interested in how the camera zoomed in on characters' faces during acts of violence instead of on the act of violence itself. It made the scenes more personal and somehow even more violent and impactful without having to rely on gore.
 
On the acting front, I really liked Ruffalo and Gyllenhall. But Downey felt a bit too... ostentatiously Downey for me.

Mostly agreed. I found him to be quite annoying and over the top, although he did crack me up in his strangely seductive drunk-sitting-around-in-my-underwear-with-legs-crossed scenes. Ruffalo was close to being over the top for me. His demands for animal crackers and food felt contrived. Who would put up with a partner you had to buy animal crackers for?. Gyllenhall did the best job to me....he was understated and earnest. Got the job done without drawing attention to himself. I thougt Anthony Edwards and Chloë Sevigne did as well.
 
The Zodiac wasn't this depraved psycho though, not like we know now with guys like Dahmer. He wasn't into having sex with the bodies that I know of, not into cannibalism, and didn't save the body parts. In fact, even his method of killing seems very anti-serial killer because he mostly used a gun and the vast majority of serial killers are more hands on than a gun allows. I'm sure some people may have suspected the Son of Sam killer as being the Zodiac when he began shooting people in 1976.

Funny coming up with a depraved psycho scale... to me the tying up of the couple and then stabbing them in the back was pretty depraved. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be next to my loved one in that situation. And then the: I'm going to throw your baby out the window before I kill you was pretty intense....so on my scale, I would rank him highish...
 
Oh Zodiac film you, two hour and forty minute run time up my spine, like a slow moving street sweeper at 3a.m.

The Zodiac is never one that really fascinated me because he was so, vanilla. He's like one of the original serial killers we knew about in the modern era and he benefited greatly from less than spectacular detective work and forensics. He was never particularly morbid or shocking like many of the ones that came after him. Someone like Ted Bendy wanted to kill because it was gratifying to him whereas the Zodiac seemed to be gratified not by the killed as much as by the games he played with the media and police.

He was also short lived compared to someone like the Green River killer who killed for decades before finally being brought to justice. Zodiac's crimes probably only spanned a year or two and then he stopped which is really weird because serial killers can't stop, its a compulsion. This is a piece of evidence that counts against Arthur Leigh Allen. He went to prison for other crimes and got out in 4 years but there were no more murders or letters from the Zodiac while he was in prison from 1974-1977.

If you put a pair of horn-rimmed glasses on him he would look pretty close to the composite sketch as well. The Zodiac claimed he used a disguise while he was killing.

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I don't know how much was true in the film concerning the maids discussion with the Zodiac about his birthday being December 18th but Arthur Leigh Allen was indeed born on the 18th of December.

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The Zodiac wasn't this depraved psycho though, not like we know now with guys like Dahmer. He wasn't into having sex with the bodies that I know of, not into cannibalism, and didn't save the body parts. In fact, even his method of killing seems very anti-serial killer because he mostly used a gun and the vast majority of serial killers are more hands on than a gun allows. I'm sure some people may have suspected the Son of Sam killer as being the Zodiac when he began shooting people in 1976.

Arthur Leigh Allen died of a heart attack and died in 1992 and he was only linked to the 7 that were attacked in 1968-69. He was suspected of killing as many as 20-28 and he claimed to have killed 37. The movie centered on the prime suspect Arthur Leigh Allen although with techniques pioneered later he was cleared due to DNA evidence, the partial print on the taxi, and handwriting analysis. Thing is, you can't trust their collecting methods in 1968-69. The DNA could have been anyone's, the partial print on the taxi also could have been anyone's, a detective, someone that walked up to the cab and looked in before the police arrived, who knows, and hand writing analysis is notoriously unreliable which is why nobody goes to jail based just on handwriting alone. It would have to match perfectly.

One of the most damning bits of evidence against Arthur Leigh Allen is that in 1992, Mike Mageau picked him in a line up and said that is the guy that shot me. Mageau was played by Jimmi Simpson in the film.

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The couple that was first killed in the film was Mike Mageau and Darlene Ferrin which was actually the second set of murders in real life.

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Darlene was killed but Mike survived and picked out Arthur Leigh Allen as his assailant. Mageau also described a brown Corvair at the Blue Rock Springs scene. Allen's friend, Philip, owned a brown Corvair that Allen was allowed to use. An unidentified man named "Lee" was known to associate with Ferrin, shown above, and Allen frequently went by his middle name Leigh. So there was all this circumstantial evidence against Allen but he gets cleared due to the much later DNA test. The dude even wore a watch that said Zodiac on it.

The movie pushed the idea that it was him. I would certainly question any forensic evidence that may not have or have not been gathered. I kept cracking up in the movie when a random, but totally important piece of evidence got shared, like Leigh's birthday! or when evidence got tampered with like when the cops were handling the guns in the trailer without gloves. How does it make more sense to take elimination prints versus just not leaving prints?! LOL. I was also left wondering why Mageau's testimony wasn't given more weight and if it would ever be possible to conclusively solve the case after Leigh's death if Leigh did it due to such shoddy unreliable work.
 
It’s crazy. Can you imagine going to one of Gacy’s neighborhood bbqs he would throw and smelling the weird, foul odor in his house that people said they smelled, only to find out later that you went to a serial killer’s party and it was the stench of rotting dead bodies filling up your nose? That’s some twisted shit.

Yeah. No telling the crazies who are living right down the street, or even next door. Like Ariel Castro in Cleveland or those creepy Turpins and the 13 kids in California :(
 
The movie does play with these factoids constantly though. Throwing them like curve-balls to constantly befuddle it's protagonists. And yeah... handwriting... cocked an eyebrown when that was first brought up. But I guess it was deamed legit back then.

So I was wondering about this....how legit is this handwriting analysis. They were certainly acting like it was conclusive....
 
Non-psychopathic persons with smoldering rage, and who kill when the rage is ignited.
Example: Charles Whitman (The "Texas Tower" sniper)

Huh? I thought it was because of his tumor. I just googled it and I guess that experts are still arguing it....
 
Funny coming up with a depraved psycho scale... to me the tying up of the couple and then stabbing them in the back was pretty depraved. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be next to my loved one in that situation. And then the: I'm going to throw your baby out the window before I kill you was pretty intense....so on my scale, I would rank him highish...

Depraved not compared to normal people but compared to other serial killers. Zodiac was very low on the scale comparatively. Dahmer would have had sex with the dead body then cooked it and ate it. A scale had to be created to try to evaluate these guys because they are so different in their methods and motivations. A spree killer is not the same as a jealous killer and a jealous killer is not the same as a torture killer.

Zodiac I don't think liked the stabbing. The reason I say that is because its the only one he did. He shot everyone else. He may have been just trying it out to see what it was like and then decided, nah, I'm going to use my gun. Also, I think it was @the muntjac that was talking about the possibility of the "baby out the window" line being a fabrication.
 
Huh? I thought it was because of his tumor. I just googled it and I guess that experts are still arguing it....

It was just an example of a level 8 on Stone's scale because he wasn't a psychopath and had what Stone called "ignited rage." I could put any other example in there. The thing about the scale though is it doesn't take into account if a tumor caused the rage, it simply rates the rage on the scale. Whitman killed 14 and wounded 32 but he's only an 8 on the 22 point scale. The reason why is body count is not what the scale rates.

I think Jack Ruby would also be a level 8 because he was not psychopathic and had ignited rage from Oswald shooting JFK.
 
Mostly agreed. I found him to be quite annoying and over the top, although he did crack me up in his strangely seductive drunk-sitting-around-in-my-underwear-with-legs-crossed scenes. Ruffalo was close to being over the top for me. His demands for animal crackers and food felt contrived. Who would put up with a partner you had to buy animal crackers for?. Gyllenhall did the best job to me....he was understated and earnest. Got the job done without drawing attention to himself. I thougt Anthony Edwards and Chloë Sevigne did as well.

Some police partners are like husband and wife. They aren't having sex but everything else is similar. They argue and fight, they do each other favors, they do things for the other they might not want to do, they defend the other with their life, and who is the only person who can call you at 3a.m.? It better be my wife or my partner. Trust me, there is a cop out there right now "asking for animal crackers."
 
So I was wondering about this....how legit is this handwriting analysis. They were certainly acting like it was conclusive....

Hand writing analysis is not reliable. Its still used but not as the basis to convict someone in court, there has to be more than just hand writing similarities. I think the forensic detective work in the 1960's was not at the level it is today and some of the things in the Zodiac would make a real detective cringe.
 
@MusterX

Like Graysmith pushing Allen, I know I'm pushing Ted. So let me toss a wrench in and explain my 2nd pick (of the known suspects).

Do we believe Z also did the Riverside crime? If not, the case for Ted strengthens. If so, then there's a suspect named Ross Sullivan who is the leading candidate in the Bates murder. I kinda want to dismiss it, but Z claimed it (him being a liar notwithstanding) and the letters are eerily similar.

Bates killer sent three letters at once (sound familiar?) to the police, paper, and family of the victim. Notice the double postage.


rpdenvelope.gif


21_riv10.jpg


Riverside_Press_Enterprise_envelope.jpg




Then here's the initial Zodiac envelopes.


340envelopefront.gif


Zodiac%20Letters%20Image.jpg



Hard to believe those Bates killer's envelopes were printed so hard to believe it's a coincidence. So if this is the first killing then it makes sense that (based on the work of John Douglas) that the killer knew the victim. Then they move on to strangers after they bust their cherry. Applying that concept to ALA, he's potentially connected to the chick in the 3rd instance of homicide so it seems far less significant. Sullivan's time line could work with Zodiac too, but his whereabouts during the Northern California crimes are uncertain. But he was in an institution beginning 1971 and got out in 1974. Then died around 1978 (I think).

What do you mean hard to believe they were printed? The two definitely look like they were from the same person and the double stamp is a bit of a tip off as well. Also the Bates letters have the address "Riverside" which fits with Ted's signature.

I also saw this which is a comparison of the style of writing between Kaczynski and the Zodiac. Some of it really makes you scratch your head. http://www.unazod.com/style.html

The Zodiac uses whats called a hanging indent.

zhang.gif


Kaczynski uses a hanging indent.

khang.gif


The Zodiac likes to separate written sections with a straight line across the page.

Zline1.gif
Zline2.gif


Kaczynski likes to separate written sections with a straight line across the page.

kline1.gif
kline2.gif


The Zodiac omits the comma between city and state. (I don't know anyone who does this BTW, its a basic grammar error one would learn in 3rd grade.)

zexemp.gif


Kaczynski omits the comma between city and state.

kexemp.gif
 
Sadly, I think I am no longer able to enjoy watching brutality and sick human behavior play out in a movie. I am way to empathetic now that I have a little girl. I can't resist imagining her innocent little mind eventually learning how awful we are capable of treating each other. It sucks because I grew up loving slasher flicks and horror.

I still enjoy violence, just not innocent victims getting repeatedly stabbed as they stare into the camera.

It's to the point that I almost bailed on the movie during the scene in the car with the woman and her baby. Anything happened to that baby and I would've been done.

BUT, I made it through those few scenes and really warmed up to it. I was engrossed, even though it was too long by a good 30 minutes.

I can watch almost anything with Gyllenhall, or Ruffalo, or Downey Jr, or Sevigny in it (something about Chloe is incredibly sexy while at the same time approachable and kind of plain. I love it.), so a movie with all of them is a no brainer. Then if you add this guy

220px-John_Carroll_Lynch_Viennale_2017_02.jpg


this guy

EliasKoteas-1.jpg


and this guy

600full-dermot-mulroney_large.jpg


and the Copycat killer

image-original.jpg


well, I'm not even sure the plot would matter. The cast was dope is what I'm saying.



I have very few quibbles. But one that I assume actually happened, so it's not the movie's fault, would be: how do you let that Leigh guy go without even arresting him? He's wearing the watch, the shoes, has the same birthday, and interviews exactly like a guy who just murdered a bunch of people, but his friggin K doesn't look right so he's off the list? That whole handwriting analysis angle made the cops look really dumb.

Anyway, I'd never read anything about the Zodiac killer so I went into the movie with a completely blank slate and was very happy with the result. Solid performances all around. Jake stole all his scenes as usual. Downey stand out a little because it is hard for that guy not to, and it kind of throws me out of the scene sometimes, but Ruffalo and Chloe blend in perfectly.

Very good movie.

Now I'm going to go back through and try to figure out what @Cubo de Sangre and @MusterX are digging up.
 
What do you mean hard to believe they were printed? The two definitely look like they were from the same person and the double stamp is a bit of a tip off as well. Also the Bates letters have the address "Riverside" which fits with Ted's signature.

I also saw this which is a comparison of the style of writing between Kaczynski and the Zodiac. Some of it really makes you scratch your head. http://www.unazod.com/style.html

The Zodiac uses whats called a hanging indent.

zhang.gif


Kaczynski uses a hanging indent.

khang.gif


The Zodiac likes to separate written sections with a straight line across the page.

Zline1.gif
Zline2.gif


Kaczynski likes to separate written sections with a straight line across the page.

kline1.gif
kline2.gif


The Zodiac omits the comma between city and state. (I don't know anyone who does this BTW, its a basic grammar error one would learn in 3rd grade.)

zexemp.gif


Kaczynski omits the comma between city and state.

kexemp.gif


I meant that the envelopes from the Bates murder were likely not printing in the paper. So if Zodiac was taking credit for something he didn't do and aping the Bates killer's style it's hard to ignore the similarities with the envelope writing and double postage.
 
This film masterfully highlights themes of obsession, paranoia and how chasing a fruitless goal can have a devastating effect on someone's life. Fincher had me under his thumb for the entire run-time, especially when the film switches to Gyllenhaal's perspective. It was glorious to watch and I honestly don't think I've ever been this captivated by a movie.
 
A tad off topic, but Mindhunter on Netflix is great as well. Produced/Directed by Fincher and has a similar vibe to Zodiac.

The guy that plays Ed Kemper is phenomenal.
 
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